Trust in our Institutions

[dimsum]

Yes, they're two different things. I assume pretty much everyone understand this, and that each of those two sets of demands have to be satisfied. The people responsible for checking the boxes in the legal process for requesting and activating assistance have to do their job, and the people responsible for finding the money to make things happen have to do their job. Are they doing their jobs with a sense of purpose, right now?

The question "Why aren't the authorities getting it done?" is just shorthand for "Why aren't the authorities completing the processes and getting the money flowing, and doing it quickly?"

If someone is the guy in charge, and his excuse for inaction is that he's waiting for his superiors to move...well, part of his job is to push his superiors to move. If he won't, he should resign right there and then.

You have just described the US govt.

These are the folks that every year, the federal (incl military) employees don’t know if they’re paid past Oct 1 (beginning of FY) bc their pay depends on the budget being approved. It almost never gets approved in time in recent years, so they have Continuing Resolutions to pay their folks and allow business to continue for a month or so at a time.

They make the Canadian govt seem agile.

 

[Brad Sallows]

You have just described the US govt.

These are the folks that every year, the federal (incl military) employees don’t know if they’re paid past Oct 1 (beginning of FY) bc their pay depends on the budget being approved. It almost never gets approved in time in recent years, so they have Continuing Resolutions to pay their folks and allow business to continue for a month or so at a time.

They make the Canadian govt seem agile.

That's kind of a vague excuse which could apply to anything. Yet time after time administrations manage to move quickly when they want to. On this one, they seem to lack that "want to".

[Add: one of the "takes" floating around is that Congress of course appropriates funds in specific buckets, and maybe the bucket for this one is running a little short. Whether or not that's true doesn't matter to what I would challenge the administration to do: take funds (temporarily) from another bucket and defy Congress to call them on it, just as administrations have for some time now made a habit of tweaking Congress's nose and watching Congress do nothing. I can guess that Congress would not move to block a temporary movement of funds for disaster response and recovery with an election not much more than a month away.]

 

[dimsum]

That's kind of a vague excuse which could apply to anything. Yet time after time administrations manage to move quickly when they want to. On this one, they seem to lack that "want to".

Well, the other thing is that the Governors of the affected states need to declare and emergency and request federal aid before the federal govt can step up, like the way we do Aid to Civil Power.

I’m assuming they did so, since federal funds are going, but perhaps the various state governors didn’t think they also needed federal military aid as well.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Well, the other thing is that the Governors of the affected states need to declare and emergency and request federal aid before the federal govt can step up, like the way we do Aid to Civil Power.

I’m assuming they did so, since federal funds are going, but perhaps the various state governors didn’t think they also needed federal military aid as well.

Possibly. My usage of "government" is not limited to "federal government". It's improbable that any of them (governments) have no staff that pay any attention to what people are talking about on-line, so they're not ignorant of all the people asking why this resource or that resource hasn't been made available. They know, so the alternatives are declining to act, declining to act quickly, or merely not competent to act quickly.

I gather that things are starting to move now, though.

 

[Kirkhill]

Helicopters! Helicopters! Helicopters!

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2024/10/02/fl_state_guardsman_what_the_media_is_telling_you_about_helene_is_complete_bullsht_politicians_dont_have_a_clue_and_are_lying.html

Oh. And money!

Hurricane Helene aftermath: More than 200 dead as hope fades in search for survivors

At least 200 people are known to have died as a result of the carnage and destruction wrought by Hurricane Helene since it made landfall in Florida a week ago.

www.nbcnews.com

Further to.....

https://thehill.com/homenews/4913942-pilot-helene-north-carolina-rescue-missions-arrest-threat/

Guy volunteers to help with his own helicopter. Some authorities accommodate him, encourage him and co-opt him. Another local shut down the operation and threatened the volunteer with arrest in the middle of a rescue operation with victims at risk. The order was counter-manded the next day.

Organization seems to be in short supply.

 

[Kirkhill]

Forgotten America in Crisis

The people of Western North Carolina deserve far more than the meager response the military has offered so far.

americanmind.org

From the sound of things they need Little Birds rather than Hawks and Hooks. Landing spots are small.

 

[brihard]

Forgotten America in Crisis

The people of Western North Carolina deserve far more than the meager response the military has offered so far.

americanmind.org

From the sound of things they need Little Birds rather than Hawks and Hooks. Landing spots are small.

Dude, do you know any Chinook pilots? I swear my golden retriever is channeling one when he sees me on a chair that most definitely has No More Room, and determines that he’ll fit up there as well anyway. And then he does.

 

[lenaitch]

Given their history and political structure, the US is understandably twitchy about federal incursions into sovereign state areas of responsibility, particularly military. This disaster is also occurring in an area that historically prides itself as being independent and self sufficient.

I'm not too sure how to assess the actual Helene response. I imagine it lies somewhere between the social media 'they ain't doing nuttin' and the official 'we got it covered'.

I see Ontario's Hydro One and a couple of Maritime provinces have sent some utility crews down. At least that seems to work on a regular basis.

 

[OldSolduer]

Dude, do you know any Chinook pilots? I swear my golden retriever is channeling one when he sees me on a chair that most definitely has No More Room, and determines that he’ll fit up there as well anyway. And then he does.

There ain`t a lot of room in a fully loaded Hook. I fuckin love those choppers.

 

[Good2Golf]

There ain`t a lot of room in a fully loaded Hook. I fuckin love those choppers.

I know of a Canadian C-model lifting 96 people in a ‘danger close’ forest fire evacuation in the late 80s. It’s a beast!

In extremis, even a standard Hook can run its internal hoist down through the centre hatch and hoist people to safety if need be, an external rescue hoist is not needed to do so.

 

[lenaitch]

not arguing about the commons at all. Central warehousing, central purchasing, central administration absolutely. That is the function of a department at the most, and could more effectively be done by a single office within a department once the planning is completed. Is it too far removed from the norm to have your planning group actually disappear once their work was completed and accepted instead of trying to stretch the work through to their pension?

A couple of problems. As we discovered during Covid, stockpiling materiel has an ongoing maintenance component. You can't realistically buy a bunch of stuff, stick it in a warehouse and expect it to be useable a decade later. As for planning groups, if they go away, so does any expertise that has been developed. Disaster management requires plans and those plans have to be kept current and exercised to some degree on a halfways regular basis.

It makes sense that most disasters (except those that have the word 'pan' in them) should initially be lead at the local level, but when municipal revenue is property tax based, their scope is limited. I really do see a need for a permanent core entity at the provincial and federal levels. The challenge is to not let it take on a life of its own as bureaucracies tend to do. Ontario has its EMO (part of Sol-Gen) and it doesn't seem to have grown too much over the years.

Not every disaster need to invoke some dedicated master department. DHS, EMO, whatever, should exist to coordinate and support. If it is health or forest fires or something specific, there are departments for that.

I think the US DHS was a bit of a knee-jerk over reaction to the 911 events and maybe they bit off more than they could chew. I think some of the roles it absorbed could have been left alone or reduced to a federal-state coordination role.

 

[YZT580]

A couple of problems. As we discovered during Covid, stockpiling materiel has an ongoing maintenance component. You can't realistically buy a bunch of stuff, stick it in a warehouse and expect it to be useable a decade later. As for planning groups, if they go away, so does any expertise that has been developed. Disaster management requires plans and those plans have to be kept current and exercised to some degree on a halfways regular basis.

Which is why you maintain an administrative group tasked with just that and only that. This is a department job.

It makes sense that most disasters (except those that have the word 'pan' in them) should initially be lead at the local level, but when municipal revenue is property tax based, their scope is limited. I really do see a need for a permanent core entity at the provincial and federal levels. The challenge is to not let it take on a life of its own as bureaucracies tend to do. Ontario has its EMO (part of Sol-Gen) and it doesn't seem to have grown too much over the years.

Of necessity, your initial organization consists of a group of specialist individuals who are being paid to identify problem areas and plan solutions. These types do not do nothing well so if they remain as a group they will continue to invent; hence the rationale for dismissing them once their job is complete but bring them back together annually or bi-annually to review their work.

Not every disaster need to invoke some dedicated master department. DHS, EMO, whatever, should exist to coordinate and support. If it is health or forest fires or something specific, there are departments for that.

I think the US DHS was a bit of a knee-jerk over reaction to the 911 events and maybe they bit off more than they could chew. I think some of the roles it absorbed could have been left alone or reduced to a federal-state coordination role.

Thanks, you basically nailed what I have been trying to convey.

 

[dimsum]

Which is why you maintain an administrative group tasked with just that and only that. This is a department job.

Of necessity, your initial organization consists of a group of specialist individuals who are being paid to identify problem areas and plan solutions. These types do not do nothing well so if they remain as a group they will continue to invent; hence the rationale for dismissing them once their job is complete but bring them back together annually or bi-annually to review their work.

Thanks, you basically nailed what I have been trying to convey.

I think you just described FEMA.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I think you just described FEMA.

Or the CAF

 

[mariomike]

It makes sense that most disasters (except those that have the word 'pan' in them) should initially be lead at the local level, but when municipal revenue is property tax based, their scope is limited.

At the municipal level, Metropolitan Toronto, Department of Emergency Services, Emergency Measures Organization ( EMO ), operated Metro's "Heavy Urban Rescue Service". Now known as HUSAR CAN-TF3.

Metro EMO's responsibilities included disaster planning, training the specialists involved, and educating the public.

The loss of life and property during Hurricane Hazel, in the early years of Metro's existence, demostrated the need.


Furniture:

It's one of the six locally led, and federally supported HUSAR teams in Canada.

Yes.

CAN-TF3 is closed competition to join.

Not sure about the others. They may be open competition?

Edited.

 

[Brad Sallows]

These types do not do nothing well so if they remain as a group they will continue to invent; hence the rationale for dismissing them once their job is complete but bring them back together annually or bi-annually to review their work.

First time I've seen self-motivated people who lean into potential needs described negatively.

 

[YZT580]

First time I've seen self-motivated people who lean into potential needs described negatively.

not negative at all. It is because of their motivation that they need to be moved out of a caretaker scenario and put to work in another. Problem solvers are few and far between and, especially in the civil service, their unique skills are often, of necessity, stifled. They are the square pegs if you would.

 

[OldSolduer]

In extremis, even a standard Hook can run its internal hoist down through the centre hatch and hoist people to safety if need be, an external rescue hoist is not needed to do so.

I have seen them in the late 70s sling M113s and old duece and a half office type trucks. Awesome big mofo chopper.

 

[lenaitch]

At the municipal level, Metropolitan Toronto, Department of Emergency Services, Emergency Measures Organization ( EMO ), operated Metro's "Heavy Urban Rescue Service". Now known as HUSAR CAN-TF3.

Metro EMO's responsibilities included disaster planning, training the specialists involved, and educating the public.

The loss of life and property during Hurricane Hazel, in the early years of Metro's existence, demostrated the need.

Obviously, the larger the municipality the broader the services and deeper the pockets. A dedicated set of emergency services departments reflects the greater potential for public danger due to density, industrial base, transportation corridors, etc.

A township of 5000 has fewer resources but a corresponding lower risk level. Lower doesn't mean non-existent. Weather events don't discriminate but the impact and response of having to accommodate 100 people vs 10,000 is different.

Of necessity, your initial organization consists of a group of specialist individuals who are being paid to identify problem areas and plan solutions. These types do not do nothing well so if they remain as a group they will continue to invent; hence the rationale for dismissing them once their job is complete but bring them back together annually or bi-annually to review their work.

Easier to execute if they are a core drawn (borrowed, seconded, etc.) from other parts of the same organization then return to their positions. Dismissing them to the job market means you may not get them back, or at least not when they are needed. I'm not a fan of using consultatnts for this. They have a different motivation than staff personnel, have to learn the organization and issues, and I suspect quality expertise in disaster management is limited and, for that reason, pricy.

 

[Brad Sallows]

have to learn the organization and issues

Institutional knowledge (and understanding of the "business" model) counts for a lot. "Leaning in" can produce impressive results if you know where to "lean in".