U.S. Military Deserters in Canada Megathread

[George Wallace]

My reply to that is:

:

 

[FastEddy]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080704.wclaim05/BNStory/National/

Extract follows:

U.S. deserter wins appeal in fight for refugee status

TU THANH HA

From Saturday's Globe and Mail

July 4, 2008 at 9:47 PM EDT

The Immigration and Refugee Board was wrong when it decided that an American deserter couldn't claim refugee status in Canada because the military transgressions he was evading weren't severe enough to be war crimes or crimes against humanity, the Federal Court ruled Friday.

The judgment lowers one of the bars that the recent wave of American deserters need to clear when they seek asylum in Canada.

It said that dodging orders that are “contrary to the basic rules or norms of human conduct” is enough grounds to apply for refugee protection.

“Military action which systematically degrades, abuses or humiliates either combatants or non-combatants is capable of supporting a refugee claim where that is the proven reason for refusing to serve,” wrote Mr. Justice Robert Barnes, who is also a court-martial appellate judge.

So does that mean, Any member past or Serving of the Armed Forces of Canada or Primarily the U.S.A., basically violate the basic rules & norms of human conduct and we/they systematically degrade, abuse and humiliate combatants or noncombatants.

It must, because that's what these Bas....s must be fleeing from or its just, they are afraid of getting their Arse's shot off.

Just another group added to the list of Murderers, Rapists, Drug Dealers, Pedophiles, Terrorists, Street Gangs, which our Justice Systems seems to find laws to protect or facilitate them. Is it our Laws or the People who are empowered to intrepid them at fault ?.

So the next time you are outraged and Videotaping your local LEO's psychically restraining and arresting a Falling down Drunk, resisting arrest and who has just ran over a Mother and her Child in a stroller on the sidewalk. Of course be sure as your conscience dictates, to scream the loudest for the punishment of those brutal Police Officers.

 

[Brad Sallows]

“Military action which systematically degrades, abuses or humiliates either combatants or non-combatants is capable of supporting a refugee claim where that is the proven reason for refusing to serve,”

Nice of the judge to wrap it all up in one short easy-to-replicate sentence, coming soon to all future refugee claims of this nature near you.

 

[Jarnhamar]

So the next time you are outraged and Videotaping your local LEO's psychically restraining and arresting a Falling down Drunk, resisting arrest and who has just ran over a Mother and her Child in a stroller on the sidewalk. Of course be sure as your conscience dictates, to scream the loudest for the punishment of those brutal Police Officers.

huh?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

huh?

Yeah, I was trying to figure the angle of tying it to LEOs also. Meh.

 

[Shamrock]

Just another group added to the list of Murderers, Rapists, Drug Dealers, Pedophiles, Terrorists, Street Gangs, which our Justice Systems seems to find laws to protect or facilitate them. Is it our Laws or the People who are empowered to intrepid them at fault ?.

I'm sorry to detract from everyone else's being clueless at your LEO commentary, but are you equating each and every deserter with murderers, rapists, and kiddy-diddlers?

 

[FastEddy]

Yeah, I was trying to figure the angle of tying it to LEOs also. Meh.

Simple, its not only the Judges and the System that seem to favour or facilitate the Criminal element, but a healthy part of Society that care more about the treatment of the Criminal than the Victim.

This is clearly evident by the Public and Medias persuit of the actions of LEO's in the methods used in the arresting of a suspect. Futher, it appears that this attitude is growing with regard to trying to vilify Police Officers.

It is my opinion, that the example given is in tandem with the theme of the Thread. Of course I also expect objections or disagreement with my comments from all those Bleeding Heart Groups or Persons.

 

[FastEddy]

I'm sorry to detract from everyone else's being clueless at your LEO commentary, but are you equating each and every deserter with murderers, rapists, and kiddy-diddlers?

YES, what category would you put them in ?. Because of Religious Objections BS.

Would you sit down Buddy Buddy and have a Beer with any of the three individuals you've mentioned, including a Deserter (regardless of his reasons) ?.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Of course I also expect objections or disagreement with my comments from all those Bleeding Heart Groups or Persons.

:

 

[Shamrock]

YES, what category would you put them in ?. Because of Religious Objections BS.

Deserters, regardless of their reasons, have committed a reprehensible act.  They have abandoned the country they vowed to serve regardless of how that service would see them employed.  In so doing, they have shown their own craven nature and absence of morality.  But, and this is a big but, that absence is primarily a personal and not a social failure.  Yes, their desertion may have satellite harm, but I'll save discussion on that for a few later.  I am not saying they are committing victimless crimes, however.

Murderers, rapists, and child molestors, however, are a completely different criminal.  These are people, either through direct or indirect action, allow considerable and long-lasting harm to come to another human being.  There is again an absence of integrity, but these criminals have eschewed the commonly held mores that serve to progress and preserve society.  In inflicting harm upon another, these people have committed social failures.

Punishments aside, shirking of civic duty aside, these are individuals who have turned their backs on their fellow soldiers and have placed their personal wellbeing over the wellbeing of their mates and replacements.  That is a massive and unforgiveable failure and a betrayal of trust, yet if being a monumental flake was illegal, then I can think of an entire political party that would be frog marched into the gulag.

Would you sit down Buddy Buddy and have a Beer with any of the three individuals you've mentioned, including a Deserter (regardless of his reasons) ?.

I'm fairly certain most people can infer my answer to this.  So, for you, I'll spell it out.

No, I would not have a beer with anyone with such casual disregard for humanity.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Murderers, rapists, and child molestors, however, are a completely different criminal.

Yes we all hate the cowardly rotten deserter but comparing running out on ones responsibility with rape or murder? Thats silly.

No, I would not have a beer with anyone with such casual disregard for humanity.

Depends. Is it someone who has never deployed and doesn't wanna go play in the sand? Nope wouldn't want anything to do with them.
Is it someone who HAS served a tour/tours over there and said "whoa I've had enough"? Well in that case yes I would sit down with them and hear what they have to say over a beer.

 

[FastEddy]

Deserters, regardless of their reasons, have committed a reprehensible act.  They have abandoned the country they vowed to serve regardless of how that service would see them employed.  In so doing, they have shown their own craven nature and absence of morality.  But, and this is a big but, that absence is primarily a personal and not a social failure.  Yes, their desertion may have satellite harm, but I'll save discussion on that for a few later.  I am not saying they are committing victimless crimes, however.

Murderers, rapists, and child molestors, however, are a completely different criminal.  These are people, either through direct or indirect action, allow considerable and long-lasting harm to come to another human being.  There is again an absence of integrity, but these criminals have eschewed the commonly held mores that serve to progress and preserve society.  In inflicting harm upon another, these people have committed social failures.

Punishments aside, shirking of civic duty aside, these are individuals who have turned their backs on their fellow soldiers and have placed their personal wellbeing over the wellbeing of their mates and replacements.  That is a massive and unforgiveable failure and a betrayal of trust, yet if being a monumental flake was illegal, then I can think of an entire political party that would be frog marched into the gulag.

I'm fairly certain most people can infer my answer to this.  So, for you, I'll spell it out.

No, I would not have a beer with anyone with such casual disregard for humanity.

Maybe in the eyes of Past or Present Military Personnel and I imagine those near and dear who has lost a Loveone or Friend, just might regard Deserters with the same contempt and categorize them in with the vilest of criminals .

I find it difficult to fathom why anyone would attempt to make the slightest case for them or their actions.

It appears you regard them at least as Monumental Flakes, theres nothing Flakey about them at all, considering that you on one hand make a very eloquent case against them.

As for "whoa I've had enough". Correct if I'm wrong, I must have missed the part when we sign up that says,
"we get to choose where, when, who and how much or long we fight".

If a Comrade was killed or injured as the result of your absence from your sworn duty, maybe I'm wrong in lumping them in with Murderers and Rapist, but for the moment, I can't think of anyone viler.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Simple, its not only the Judges and the System that seem to favour or facilitate the Criminal element, but a healthy part of Society that care more about the treatment of the Criminal than the Victim.

This is clearly evident by the Public and Medias persuit of the actions of LEO's in the methods used in the arresting of a suspect. Futher, it appears that this attitude is growing with regard to trying to vilify Police Officers.

It is my opinion, that the example given is in tandem with the theme of the Thread. Of course I also expect objections or disagreement with my comments from all those Bleeding Heart Groups or Persons.

The thread is about US deserters. If you feel slighted by society, in regards to your chosen profession, collect your thoughts, make a coherent point(s) for discussion, and put it in the proper thread for discourse.

This isn't it.

 

[FastEddy]

The thread is about US deserters. If you feel slighted by society, in regards to your chosen profession, collect your thoughts, make a coherent point(s) for discussion, and put it in the proper thread for discourse.

This isn't it.

Yes indeed it is, primarily the comments were directed towards a Court Ruling concerning Deserters.

Then all agreed that it seemed to or would Facilitate Deserters.

A suggestion was then raised to the fact that this attitude and thinking was not only confined to the System and Judges, but a part of the General Public (an example was given that sympathy was directed to the perpetrators  than the Victims, we are still bearing in mind Deserters.

Then a banter of how we should or who we should compare these Deserters to.

The fact that certain elements of Society care more to Vilify LEO's than Criminals which Deserters have been included in, not be permitted to be used as a example.

I cannot see how you have come to the conclusion that we have not been discussing Deserters.

With regard to your reference to  my chosen profession, Decorum and Retribution forbid me at the moment to reply. 

 

[Fishbone Jones]

With regard to your reference to  my chosen profession, Decorum and Retribution forbid me at the moment to reply. 

Give me a break will ya. : It wasn't a slight, and you know it. Don't try to make something out of nothing.

 

[Jarnhamar]

So FastEddie let me get this straight

Deserters should be held in the same regard as rapists and murderers.
Someone who may have serious PTSD from back to back tours who's job may have been picking up body parts for 14 months a go, who has fulfilled their contract but caught under stop loss and told their going BACK again should just STFU because they signed on the dotted line.
Your pissed off that some people in society sometime vilifies LEOs and it burns your cookies that they may have sympathy for deserters?
It pisses you off when someone video tapes a cop/cops physically arresting someone where violence is present.
Anyone who doesn't agree with your point of view is a bleeding heart?

As for the whole comrade dying because you didn't get on the plane. That can go both ways.
Example that US soldier who threw a grenade into his headquarters group killing some of them.
Or even hypothetically speaking if someone just DOES NOT want to be in the fight and has done everything they can to get OUT of the fight but go anyways, ends up freezing up during a firefight, runs away from their post, commits suicide etc.. Is it safe to say by that logic that forcing one of these deserter wanna-be's to deploy  actually caused allied soldiers to die?

I'm trying to follow you're point of view but it really seems like you have a chip on your shoulder about how LEOs are treated and I'm not making the connection here.

 

[George Wallace]

OK!

Let's stop picking fly shyte out of pepper.  The "GENERAL" opinion towards Deserters is quite evident.  We are not discussing individual cases.  Everyone is different.  Each of their personal predicaments will have to be judged separately.  However, GENERALLY speaking...........

I really don't care if you want to bring up an individual with PDST or an individual with a seventeenth tour.  Those are individual cases that should be meritted on their own. 

GENERALLY speaking about Deserters coming to Canada from the US is the MAIN topic in this thread.  :

 

[Greymatters]

As for "whoa I've had enough". Correct if I'm wrong, I must have missed the part when we sign up that says,
"we get to choose where, when, who and how much or long we fight".

Every person has that choice.  That's why service is voluntary and not compulsory.  Once you sign the dotted line and then change your mind, desertion is more akin to breaking of a contract than with child molestation.  

Even once you're in, you still have the choice to fight or be punished.  What is reprehensible is that deserters we are discussing fail to acknowledge their obligations and are avoiding their punishment.  But you must still consider that we are talking about soldiers who fail to carry out their obligations, not soldiers who desert in the face of the enemy...

What should be discussed is that deserters are recognized as eligible for refugee status.  What a crock!  This smacks of some sort of political agenda...

Oh look at that.  I managed to write my post without unnecessarily capitalizing any words...

 

[Jarnhamar]

GENERALLY speaking about Deserters coming to Canada from the US is the MAIN topic in this thread.  :

A) Keep them out of Canada an if they sneak in send them home
or
B) If they REALLY want to stay - Fast Eddie gets to search them without video camera's present  ;D

 

[axeman]

If they really want to stay im sure theres a place to be made for them on Elsmere Island. I believe if they were Truly behind what they say they would do time in the military prision then be released. but as they choose to desert well then they are breaking the law here to  as we are also in the war on terrorism.  maybe if we let DAWG the Bounty hunter up here there would be less of them around as they are living in visible places showing the US that they are not afraid of the US as long as they are hidden behind a refugee claim and not being thrown into a legal extradion ...

ah well my 2 cents being the devils advocate    >