UNAUTHORIZED DISPOSAL OF COMBAT UNIFORMS AND EQUIPMENT
- Thread starter John Nayduk
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Calm down people. Let's have a little respect on both sides please.
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basxav said:
YUP ITAR http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/daod/3003/0_e.asp
Controlled Goods
Identification
Date of Issue 2002-12-06
Application This is a directive that applies to employees of the Department of National Defence (DND) and an order that applies to officers and non-commissioned members of the Canadian Forces ("CF members").
Approval
Authority This DAOD is issued under the authority of the Assistant Deputy Minister (Materiel) (ADM(Mat)).
Enquiries Controlled Technology Access Transfer (CTAT) Office
Policy Direction
Context "Controlled goods" are specified in the schedule to the Defence Production Act. The schedule refers to goods that are included in the Export Control List, which is administered by the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade.
The Export Control List includes defence goods listed under the United States Munitions List in the International Traffic in Arms Regulations of the United States, and any goods subject to similar regulations issued by any country trading defence goods with Canada.
Under the Defence Production Act it is an offence for a person who is not registered under that Act to knowingly examine, possess or transfer a controlled good. The registration requirements do not apply to a person who occupies a position in the federal public service or a federal Crown Corporation, or is employed by Her Majesty in right of a province, who acts in good faith in the course of their duties and employment.
Policy
Statement DND and the CF are committed to demonstrating responsiveness to, and responsibility for, all laws and regulations in respect of controlled goods.
Requirements DND and the CF must:
ensure that all controlled goods are identified and afforded the necessary level of protection to prevent their unauthorized examination, possession or transfer;
ensure that DND employees and CF members exercise due diligence and permit access to controlled goods only by persons so authorized under the Defence Production Act and the Controlled Goods Regulations; and
provide for reporting and investigation if the security of a controlled good is compromised in any way.
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Management of Controlled Goods
Identification
Date of Issue 2002-12-06
Application This is a directive that applies to employees of the Department of National Defence (DND) and an order that applies to officers and non-commissioned members of the Canadian Forces ("CF members").
Approval
Authority This DAOD is issued under the authority of the Assistant Deputy Minister (Materiel) (ADM(Mat)).
Enquiries Controlled Technology Access Transfer (CTAT) Office
Requirements
Management of
Controlled Goods In the management of controlled goods in DND and the CF, DND employees and CF members shall:
acquire an appropriate level of knowledge and skills by means of awareness and training programs to manage controlled goods;
procure, manage, secure, use and dispose of controlled goods in a manner that meets all laws, regulations, international agreements, contracts, licenses and other agreements that govern the use or transfer of controlled goods;
incorporate the management of controlled goods in all aspects of:
research and development,
engineering and maintenance, and
life cycle materiel management (initial selection, procurement, warehousing, use, handling, storage, transportation and disposal); and
ensure that all reasonable efforts are made to prevent unauthorized access to controlled goods.
Note – See the Context block in DAOD 3003-0, Controlled Goods for the meaning of "controlled goods".
Exercising Due
Diligence As a minimum in the management of controlled goods in DND and the CF, due diligence requires that DND employees and CF members:
know and obey federal laws and regulations applicable to controlled goods;
know how to identify controlled goods, and persons who are authorized to have access to controlled goods;
take reasonable measures to prevent unauthorized access to controlled goods;
prepare for risks that a thoughtful and reasonable person would foresee; and
respond to risks and incidents as soon as practicable.
Compromise of
Security If the security of controlled goods is compromised in any way, the incident shall be reported immediately and investigated.
Corrective action shall be taken as necessary to prevent any reoccurrence
http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/daod/3003/1_e.asp
Identification
Date of Issue 2002-12-06
Application This is a directive that applies to employees of the Department of National Defence (DND) and an order that applies to officers and non-commissioned members of the Canadian Forces ("CF members").
Approval
Authority This DAOD is issued under the authority of the Assistant Deputy Minister (Materiel) (ADM(Mat)).
Enquiries Controlled Technology Access Transfer (CTAT) Office
Requirements
Management of
Controlled Goods In the management of controlled goods in DND and the CF, DND employees and CF members shall:
acquire an appropriate level of knowledge and skills by means of awareness and training programs to manage controlled goods;
procure, manage, secure, use and dispose of controlled goods in a manner that meets all laws, regulations, international agreements, contracts, licenses and other agreements that govern the use or transfer of controlled goods;
incorporate the management of controlled goods in all aspects of:
research and development,
engineering and maintenance, and
life cycle materiel management (initial selection, procurement, warehousing, use, handling, storage, transportation and disposal); and
ensure that all reasonable efforts are made to prevent unauthorized access to controlled goods.
Note – See the Context block in DAOD 3003-0, Controlled Goods for the meaning of "controlled goods".
Exercising Due
Diligence As a minimum in the management of controlled goods in DND and the CF, due diligence requires that DND employees and CF members:
know and obey federal laws and regulations applicable to controlled goods;
know how to identify controlled goods, and persons who are authorized to have access to controlled goods;
take reasonable measures to prevent unauthorized access to controlled goods;
prepare for risks that a thoughtful and reasonable person would foresee; and
respond to risks and incidents as soon as practicable.
Compromise of
Security If the security of controlled goods is compromised in any way, the incident shall be reported immediately and investigated.
Corrective action shall be taken as necessary to prevent any reoccurrence
http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/daod/3003/1_e.asp
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Err...yes...however, my CADPAT uniform (shirt and trousers) are factory-extra (never went to DND for tagging). So I dunno if they would count for 'controlled items'.MikeL said:
Still, being a cadet with CADPAT, it's a grey area. People will argue both sides to the death. Personally, I respect my uniform. I wear my cadet slipons and don't try to pass off as a RegF or PRes member. I've had people (civilians) ask if I was in the Army, and I've told them I was a Sea Cadet.
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In reviewing this thread, Sgt Bilko's comments reminded me of a situation which renders one of my earlier comments incorrect. I stated that any and all genuine-issue CADPAT in non-DND possession is de-facto stolen government property, but that is not actually the case.
There were a few incidents where crown assets sold off triwalls of condemned genuine-issue uniforms that had reached the end of their service life. This was the result of several base supply organizations not being aware of the CTS "render to rags" disposal policy for CADPAT items. Those organizations mistakenly discarded the uniforms in intact (albeit very worn/damaged) condition. CTS put a quick stop to that when the mistake became apparent with the uniforms appearing in various surplus shops, but not before a bunch of the first generation uniforms leaked out onto the civilian market. There was a rather high-profile case in Morinville AB (just North of Edmonton Garrison) where a surplus dealer ended up with quite a few condemned CADPAT uniforms and refused to return them to the military when the disposal error was discovered. After some legal wrangling, the dealer (CEL Surplus) was permitted to retain and sell the uniforms.
All of that to say that there are some genuine-issue CADPAT shirts and trousers that were legally acquired floating around on the civilian market. However, these are all the older first-generation uniform with the fading problem, and all that were sold are in well-worn condition.
So, I correct my earlier statement to read that any NEW CONDITION CADPAT uniforms possessed outside of DND are invariably stolen government property. Along with any CADPAT ICE clothing, Tac Vests, Small Packs, etc. None of the latter were issued prior to enforcement of the "render to rags" disposal directive.
FWIW.... Just trying to keep the record straight.
There were a few incidents where crown assets sold off triwalls of condemned genuine-issue uniforms that had reached the end of their service life. This was the result of several base supply organizations not being aware of the CTS "render to rags" disposal policy for CADPAT items. Those organizations mistakenly discarded the uniforms in intact (albeit very worn/damaged) condition. CTS put a quick stop to that when the mistake became apparent with the uniforms appearing in various surplus shops, but not before a bunch of the first generation uniforms leaked out onto the civilian market. There was a rather high-profile case in Morinville AB (just North of Edmonton Garrison) where a surplus dealer ended up with quite a few condemned CADPAT uniforms and refused to return them to the military when the disposal error was discovered. After some legal wrangling, the dealer (CEL Surplus) was permitted to retain and sell the uniforms.
All of that to say that there are some genuine-issue CADPAT shirts and trousers that were legally acquired floating around on the civilian market. However, these are all the older first-generation uniform with the fading problem, and all that were sold are in well-worn condition.
So, I correct my earlier statement to read that any NEW CONDITION CADPAT uniforms possessed outside of DND are invariably stolen government property. Along with any CADPAT ICE clothing, Tac Vests, Small Packs, etc. None of the latter were issued prior to enforcement of the "render to rags" disposal directive.
FWIW.... Just trying to keep the record straight.
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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Piper said:
Ewwwwww! You are a young pup aren't you?
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You are right that what is linked in the first post here is just beginning to scratch the surface. And those of us who do send these "items" forward for investigation have a hard time trying to keep up with it all.
Base supply sections are shredding this stuff because it is controlled and we have to by law. If the item is obsolete and no longer used in DND/CF and is uncontrolled by ITAR/CTAT...it can be sold through CADC/Crown assets in usable/serviceable condition such as crew suits.
Leadership must come into play as the overwhelming abundance of these kit items available in small quantities on e-bay etc is NOT coming from a corrupt Supply Tech at clothing stores. I guarantee you that the R&D section is not "scrapping" a brand new or nearly new piece of kit that is still operational. As for the Olive drab goretex (IECS) it is controlled by CTAT/ITAR but there is much of it available on the civvy side of the house as the CF has been using this item since the mid-nineties. Much was sold through CADC prior to Sept 11 2001. 9/11 led to increased CTAT/ITAR restrictions and regulations being placed on many more items of kit. Items which were not controlled prior to 9/11 found controls being placed on them after these tragic events in an attempt to limit the risk to ourselves and our allies by posers and availability of our technology etc. A jacket obtained quite legally via CADC in the late 90s and early this milleneum is not able to be "legally" obtained now.
When it is a glitch/mistake in the Supply system they tend to become available in bulk...such was the case north of Edmonton. I guarantee you that the R&D section is not "scrapping" a brand new or nearly new piece of kit that is still operational and if it is, it is shredded or destroyed via an alternate means prior to being sold as scrap material.
What you are seeing on e-bay etc these days is dishonest soldiers who are breaking the law. And not just the odd Sup Tech or two (because I'm sure they are out there as well). What you are seeing is the kit that one of your subordinates or buddies had to report as lost or stolen on an MLR (and which you or your CO probably held him financially responsible for) because another one of your buddies/subordinates had acess to it and STOLE it. This kit is not legally obtained...it is stolen. Just look at the enormous volume of MLRs being submitted to Base Supply Clothing Stores by your soldiers to replace their stolen items. Your chain of command has signed off on them as having "investigated" but have they really? I say not judging by the amount of stolen gear showing up on sites like these.
There are also quite a few soldiers out there who feel that it is totally legal and acceptable to file an MLR saying they lost something (which they haven't) in order to obtain an extra/duplicate item. How much of this ends up on e-bay where that soldier has his little side-line business going? This is also not legal and this soldier has "lied" and signed on official government paperwork...
It is up to all levels of the Chain of Command to enforce discipline and investigate losses/thefts of kit from their soldiers when reported. After all, it is your honest soldier who the item has been stolen from who ends up paying for it and the thief who stole it is making a killing on e-bay putting you and your fellow soldiers at risk.
Oh for the days when we dealt with the thieves amongst us at the lowest level...and harshly too!!
Base supply sections are shredding this stuff because it is controlled and we have to by law. If the item is obsolete and no longer used in DND/CF and is uncontrolled by ITAR/CTAT...it can be sold through CADC/Crown assets in usable/serviceable condition such as crew suits.
Leadership must come into play as the overwhelming abundance of these kit items available in small quantities on e-bay etc is NOT coming from a corrupt Supply Tech at clothing stores. I guarantee you that the R&D section is not "scrapping" a brand new or nearly new piece of kit that is still operational. As for the Olive drab goretex (IECS) it is controlled by CTAT/ITAR but there is much of it available on the civvy side of the house as the CF has been using this item since the mid-nineties. Much was sold through CADC prior to Sept 11 2001. 9/11 led to increased CTAT/ITAR restrictions and regulations being placed on many more items of kit. Items which were not controlled prior to 9/11 found controls being placed on them after these tragic events in an attempt to limit the risk to ourselves and our allies by posers and availability of our technology etc. A jacket obtained quite legally via CADC in the late 90s and early this milleneum is not able to be "legally" obtained now.
When it is a glitch/mistake in the Supply system they tend to become available in bulk...such was the case north of Edmonton. I guarantee you that the R&D section is not "scrapping" a brand new or nearly new piece of kit that is still operational and if it is, it is shredded or destroyed via an alternate means prior to being sold as scrap material.
What you are seeing on e-bay etc these days is dishonest soldiers who are breaking the law. And not just the odd Sup Tech or two (because I'm sure they are out there as well). What you are seeing is the kit that one of your subordinates or buddies had to report as lost or stolen on an MLR (and which you or your CO probably held him financially responsible for) because another one of your buddies/subordinates had acess to it and STOLE it. This kit is not legally obtained...it is stolen. Just look at the enormous volume of MLRs being submitted to Base Supply Clothing Stores by your soldiers to replace their stolen items. Your chain of command has signed off on them as having "investigated" but have they really? I say not judging by the amount of stolen gear showing up on sites like these.
There are also quite a few soldiers out there who feel that it is totally legal and acceptable to file an MLR saying they lost something (which they haven't) in order to obtain an extra/duplicate item. How much of this ends up on e-bay where that soldier has his little side-line business going? This is also not legal and this soldier has "lied" and signed on official government paperwork...
It is up to all levels of the Chain of Command to enforce discipline and investigate losses/thefts of kit from their soldiers when reported. After all, it is your honest soldier who the item has been stolen from who ends up paying for it and the thief who stole it is making a killing on e-bay putting you and your fellow soldiers at risk.
Oh for the days when we dealt with the thieves amongst us at the lowest level...and harshly too!!
Trinity
Army.ca Veteran
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Guy. E said:
Actually
Those crosses are aftermarket knockoff/replica's.
I know.. Cause I had them made along with chaplains and amonier flashes for the epilettes. (sp)
This is because the crosses were hard to get and the flashes didn't (and still don't) exist except
for the ones I have and sold to other chaplains to raise money for breast cancer.
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nothing to see here- move along...
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Piper said:
hmmm - better reconsider...
blake
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Trinity said:
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Another site selling CADPAT:
http://www.flecktarn.co.uk/productsdig.html
http://www.flecktarn.co.uk/graphics/gallery/pictures/m8412.jpg
http://www.flecktarn.co.uk/gallery.html
The wanks in charge: http://www.flecktarn.co.uk/contact.html
http://www.flecktarn.co.uk/productsdig.html
http://www.flecktarn.co.uk/graphics/gallery/pictures/m8412.jpg
http://www.flecktarn.co.uk/gallery.html
The wanks in charge: http://www.flecktarn.co.uk/contact.html
M
MikeL
Guest
Flecktarn.co.uk is selling the repro Frontenac stuff, not CF issue.
http://www.flecktarn.co.uk/graphics/gallery/pictures/m8412.jpg This is Danish kit, not Canadian CADPAT.
http://www.flecktarn.co.uk/graphics/gallery/pictures/m8412.jpg This is Danish kit, not Canadian CADPAT.
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