Why Not Canadian Amphib/Marine Capability? (merged)

[FSTO]

I'll crib the notes I posted over on ER Campbell's blog.

I’ll argue for amphibious capability, but it doesn’t need to be an extravagant one like the US (and only the US) maintains. It can be something conventional like a mid-size landing platform dock (LPD), which countries like The Netherlands and Spain possess, or something a like a tender (“expeditionary sea base” in modern parlance) which is essentially a converted tanker that can push out and support amphibious forces – I think Davie is developing an ability at making use of tankers….

A few of these ships would require somewhere in the ballpark of 300-500 sailors. On top of this, there would be a requirement for some development in joint command and control, a process the Aussies are well into with the commissioning of their amphibious ships. Add another 100 Army, Navy and Air Force personnel or so for this.

The real investment needs to go into the ship-to-shore or ship-to-objective “connectors system”, which demands a few niche capabilities. First is the “combat cargo network” which is soldiers and sailors who understand how to pack ships for amphibious disembarkation. Next is the landing craft themselves, which can be crewed by Navy (US approach) or Army/Marine (UK approach) personnel. Next up is the beach party unit, which is the amphibious equivalent of a DZ controller, making sure beaches aren’t congested. Beachmasters control the surf to the end of the beach, and from the beach on is the domain of the shore party, which would be specially trained Army logisticians who get stuff off the beach and into a support area. The final piece would be some sort of aviation asset: perhaps cargo variants of the CH-148? So add another couple 200 or so RCAF personnel to increase our Maritime Helicopter capacity.

So, while a few extra platforms and a couple hundred sailors may get your amphibious force to an operational area, amphibious capability demands probably and extra 500 or so personnel from the Army, Navy, and Air Force – along with some specialized platforms and equipment – to run the connectors system.

All this is to say that, while I am a proponent of such capability, even a modest one will come at some cost.

Not to poo poo your post, but the ship you are proposing is in the IWO JIMA range and would not be considered at all by the L1.
The ship I proposed above has a complement of: 17 officers, 163 ratings which is a pers bill that we could swallow. As I said baby steps and if the effects of climate change are correct, it will be a busy little asset with just taking care of disaster relief.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Not to poo poo your post, but the ship you are proposing is in the IWO JIMA range and would not be considered at all by the L1.
The ship I proposed above has a complement of: 17 officers, 163 ratings which is a pers bill that we could swallow. As I said baby steps and if the effects of climate change are correct, it will be a busy little asset with just taking care of disaster relief.

From personal experience, one of the 'disasters' you'll need to relieve is the perception by the deep water Navy that their role is being changed from Strategic Players on the big stage, swooping grandly around the world's oceans, to include babysitting a bunch of grunts in a very dodgy situation (e.g., close to rocks and bad guys on land), as they commute to and from work. To be fair, constant pressure on limited resources leads the bigger player in the great scheme of things, Jack, to prioritize differently on a constant basis.

It was a constant struggle, even in the UK's 3 Cdo Bde with all the attendant history and infrastructure, to keep the Navy 'on mission' so a strong joint warfare/ combined operations doctrine, and supporting resource package, needs to underpin all these amphibious dreams.

 

[Old Sweat]

In 1973 I participated in the Norwegian Army's Brigade North annual FTX. Part of the deployment into the exercise area was by LST. That obviously was a very long time ago, but one thing that still is vivid in my mind was the use of engineer plant to continually work on the beach as the tide changed the waterline on the beach as the LSTs "landed."

P.S. At one time we had an embryonic marine corps, but that was in the 1860s in the form of "Naval Brigades" such as the Dunnville Naval Brigade. Its CO referred to his men as Marines in his report on the unit's part in the Battle of the Fort Erie Docks (the forgotten cousin of The Battle of Ridgeway) against the Fenians on 2 June, 1866.

The naval brigades did not survive much past confederation.

 

[GAP]

Everybody is all enamoured with a proposal from a wannabe academic who has never done diddly except spout off rhetoric

:stars:

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Had we gotten the Mistrals then we would be learning to adapt to the new reality. Their base crew was slightly smaller than Tribal class, so crewing would not be a problem. I would see Canada's Amphibs more as a strategic assets where we would support our allies and use them to earn international Brownie points. Parking a Mistral off of Somali would have an interesting effect as the pirates would have to worry about a seaborne assault on their bases, whether or not it happens. Training the army and navy to work off the ships together would happen far faster than us acquiring proper helicopters for them. They could carry a mix of landing craft and perhaps a smallish Griffon Hovercraft.
It is likely for the first few years we would have to embark helicopters from another nation to be able to use them to full effect.   

 

[FSTO]

Had we gotten the Mistrals then we would be learning to adapt to the new reality. Their base crew was slightly smaller than Tribal class, so crewing would not be a problem. I would see Canada's Amphibs more as a strategic assets where we would support our allies and use them to earn international Brownie points. Parking a Mistral off of Somali would have an interesting effect as the pirates would have to worry about a seaborne assault on their bases, whether or not it happens. Training the army and navy to work off the ships together would happen far faster than us acquiring proper helicopters for them. They could carry a mix of landing craft and perhaps a smallish Griffon Hovercraft.
It is likely for the first few years we would have to embark helicopters from another nation to be able to use them to full effect. 

And the highlighted is the crux of the overall problem.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I think the inter service issues could be resolved at the operational/ship level by the choice of Captain and Ground Force Commander. They have to fight their respective commands to keep the stupidity from interfering to much.
I personally think acquiring the right helicopters would be a far greater struggle. The smart move would to be to buy more Cyclones, with at least 2 per ship being equipped with the ASW suite and 4-6 being mainly troop/cargo transport. I would also opt for some smaller helos such as the Bell 429 (recent acquired by the CCG and Australian navy for training ) for recce, training,  landing on smaller vessels and personal transfers. (More Cyclones would be nice, but doubt the budget would handle it)

Mistrals would have made the summer arctic exercises far more interesting and important. You could actually then bring tanks or LAV’s to the North which would have been quite the learning experience. 

 

[FSTO]

I think the inter service issues could be resolved at the operational/ship level by the choice of Captain and Ground Force Commander. They have to fight their respective commands to keep the stupidity from interfering to much.
I personally think acquiring the right helicopters would be a far greater struggle. The smart move would to be to buy more Cyclones, with at least 2 per ship being equipped with the ASW suite and 4-6 being mainly troop/cargo transport. I would also opt for some smaller helos such as the Bell 429 (recent acquired by the CCG and Australian navy for training ) for recce, training,  landing on smaller vessels and personal transfers. (More Cyclones would be nice, but doubt the budget would handle it)

Mistrals would have made the summer arctic exercises far more interesting and important. You could actually then bring tanks or LAV’s to the North which would have been quite the learning experience.

The Mistral's were an opportunity missed for sure.

Maybe the new Defence Paper will address this issue?

Oh who am I kidding, it will be a lot of noise and not much action.

 

[daftandbarmy]

The Mistral's were an opportunity missed for sure.

Maybe the new Defence Paper will address this issue?

Oh who am I kidding, it will be a lot of noise and not much action.

Well, what we really need is a floating helicopter carrier, which our new logistics ships could provide (I guess?). We also need a way to transport our landing craft and troops. Troops can go by any means if we are doing an 'unopposed' approach. Not sure how we'd transport the LCs, but that's above my pay grade.

Based on my experience in Norway, we would be shuttled from leased Danish RO-RO ferries by landing craft to the LPD (either Fearful or Insipid ), get off in the internal dock, climb the gangway to the helipad on the back, then hop on the next Sea King (they were stacked up in cab rank) that dropped down to shuttle us us onto the shore somewhere. Don't be late!

We don't necessarily need a 'HMS Ocean' type solution which, based on the recent British attempts to sell it off, suggests that they have come to similar conclusions...
Meanwhile, Jack was around and overhead providing the anti-ship/air cover.

 

[Kirkhill]

Couldn't we just lease something like this for starters and see how we get on?

Edit: Faster on the trigger than me D&B.

Pretty similar to Maersk RoRo Ferries.  In fact she is a RoRo ferry converted by Maersk.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Would be a good task for Davie

 

[Eland2]

Had we gotten the Mistrals then we would be learning to adapt to the new reality. Their base crew was slightly smaller than Tribal class, so crewing would not be a problem. I would see Canada's Amphibs more as a strategic assets where we would support our allies and use them to earn international Brownie points. Parking a Mistral off of Somali would have an interesting effect as the pirates would have to worry about a seaborne assault on their bases, whether or not it happens. Training the army and navy to work off the ships together would happen far faster than us acquiring proper helicopters for them. They could carry a mix of landing craft and perhaps a smallish Griffon Hovercraft.
It is likely for the first few years we would have to embark helicopters from another nation to be able to use them to full effect. 

Maybe the answer to the conundrum is a naval infantry unit? Royal Canadian Marines, perhaps? Or Royal Canadian Marine Regiment? Such a unit need not be corps size, but maybe somewhere in the battalion range, and more like the Special Boat Squadron (SBS) in the British Army than the USMC.

It's a shame we didn't jump in and buy a Mistral (or two) when we had the chance. The Mistral could potentially be the JSS we've been looking for all along.

 

[Infanteer]

Not to poo poo your post, but the ship you are proposing is in the IWO JIMA range and would not be considered at all by the L1.
The ship I proposed above has a complement of: 17 officers, 163 ratings which is a pers bill that we could swallow. As I said baby steps and if the effects of climate change are correct, it will be a busy little asset with just taking care of disaster relief.

That's not what I was trying to propose.  What I was getting at was that there were multiple options for amphibious shipping, ranging from the traditional LPD/LHD ($$$) to something a little more offbeat like a expeditionary dock based on a converted container ship ($$).  The crew size I gave was for a couple ships of a smaller class.

Even a converted ferry or RORO would work ($).  I watched the HMNZS Canterbury pull into port once and debark a Coy+ of Aussie and Kiwi soldiers.  If tiny NZ can field an amphibious capability, it is certainly within our capacity to generate something modest.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMNZS_Canterbury_(L421)

 

[FSTO]

That's not what I was trying to propose.  What I was getting at was that there were multiple options for amphibious shipping, ranging from the traditional LPD/LHD ($$$) to something a little more offbeat like a expeditionary dock based on a converted container ship ($$).  The crew size I gave was for a couple ships of a smaller class.

Even a converted ferry or RORO would work ($).  I watched the HMNZS Canterbury pull into port once and debark a Coy+ of Aussie and Kiwi soldiers.  If tiny NZ can field an amphibious capability, it is certainly within our capacity to generate something modest.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMNZS_Canterbury_(L421)

Okay got it.

In the end there has to be government (read caucus) will to see this type of capability as something that Canada should procure and a Defence Minister (with the backing of TB and Foreign Affairs) to say to the L1s that this will happen and you can play nice with each other or find new jobs.

 

[Underway]

The army and navy can and have worked well together.  The navy is far more operational focused than the army on a day to day basis as all our training happens in a real operational environment.  If the army needs navy support to get ashore, if the communication lanes are open, the navy at the tactical level won't be a problem.  The navy on a strategic level knows that the littorals are currently where it's at, hence the new focus on supporting forces ashore creeping back into the doctrine and equipment (Harpoon Block B, requirements for 127mm on new ships).  But with limited budgets, the navy has to focus on blue water defence of Canada stuff, like subs and AAD etc...  Money diverted from those would be considered an expensive mistake.

Secondly, the AOPS will have a very limited amphib capability.  20-40 pers max it seems with the covered launch boats and large boarding party boats.  Far below what we are talking about here, but just working on a platoon sized level will help increase the corporate knowledge base in improve coordination/cooperation between the elements and operation of landing craft.  This might work well for a "commando" or SOF marine element.

 

[Infanteer]

In the end there has to be government (read caucus) will to see this type of capability as something that Canada should procure and a Defence Minister (with the backing of TB and Foreign Affairs) to say to the L1s that this will happen and you can play nice with each other or find new jobs.

I'm not letting the DND off that easy.  We can't, and shouldn't, expect the Government to come out and say "we need X and Y."  It's up to the DND to shape that environment through presenting a feasible, affordable and useful operating concept.  Do we do this well as a joint force, or do we in Defence create an environment where service silos dominate the playing field, and the government is given a bunch of competing slices of single-service capabilities to figure out what to do with?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

That's not what I was trying to propose.  What I was getting at was that there were multiple options for amphibious shipping, ranging from the traditional LPD/LHD ($$$) to something a little more offbeat like a expeditionary dock based on a converted container ship ($$).  The crew size I gave was for a couple ships of a smaller class.

Even a converted ferry or RORO would work ($).  I watched the HMNZS Canterbury pull into port once and debark a Coy+ of Aussie and Kiwi soldiers.  If tiny NZ can field an amphibious capability, it is certainly within our capacity to generate something modest.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMNZS_Canterbury_(L421)

What I get from that Wiki link is that the RO/RO design she was based off of created significant limitation in what sea states she can handle and limits on her stability which effects carrying capacity. I can’t think of any “commercial vessel” with a flooding welldeck, which basically leaves us with the Mistral class which seems to blend commercial standards and military needs as well as can be expected at a fairly decent price.

 

[Underway]

What I get from that Wiki link is that the RO/RO design she was based off of created significant limitation in what sea states she can handle and limits on her stability which effects carrying capacity. I can’t think of any “commercial vessel” with a flooding welldeck, which basically leaves us with the Mistral class which seems to blend commercial standards and military needs as well as can be expected at a fairly decent price.

You could remove the well-deck requirement and just go for air-deployable from the sea.  Light air deployable infantry units already exist, CSOR already exists, and the Chinooks already exist.  If you did a conversion like the Aster and made it and LHP, with large side davits to drop down larger landing craft then you could conceivably do a simple, cheap and relatively flexible marine mobile force.  Larger davit launched/recovered landing craft would be useful from a disaster response capability and might be able to move small light vehicles (trucks, GWagons etc...).  If this was important then get the 8 speculated/rumored "Commando" cyclones as medium lift platforms.  Oddly enough this might be cheaper and easier to implement.  It also means that when not being used for "amphib ops" this LHP could operate as a large blue water navy platform for ASW helo's/  UAV's, helo AEW etc... and buff up a TG.  (I guess I just said we should get an aircraft err... helicopter carrier didn't I...).

 

[Colin Parkinson]

LOL  [lol: For the cost, I don’t see giving up the well deck as good bang for the buck, the Mistrals could still give you the Helicopter carrier effect and LPD.
Now a commercial conversion could be take one of these designs, remove/reduce the mud tanks, but a tilting ramp on the back, have two sets of rollers so you can have 2 landing craft side by side, it could launch and retrieve landing craft/floating dock sections to support a larger operation, however it would not be able to carry the troops and only limited supplies and be slower than the rest of the fleet. Likely by the time of the conversion you could buy a Mistral.

http://www.offshoreenergytoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Norway-STX-Confirms-Two-Platform-Supply-Vessels-Contracts-from-Island-Offshore.jpg

 

[Kirkhill]

You could remove the well-deck requirement and just go for air-deployable from the sea.  Light air deployable infantry units already exist, CSOR already exists, and the Chinooks already exist.  If you did a conversion like the Aster and made it and LHP, with large davits side davits to drop down larger landing craft then you could conceivably do a simple, cheap and relatively flexible marine mobile force.  Larger davit launched/recovered landing craft would be useful from a disaster response capability and might be able to move small light vehicles (trucks, GWagons etc...).  If this was important then get the 8 speculated/rumored "Commando" cyclones as medium lift platforms.  Oddly enough this might be a cheaper and easier to implement.  It also means that when not being used for "amphib ops" this LHP could operate as a large blue water navy platform for ASW helo's/  UAV's, helo AEW etc... and buff up a TG.  (I guess I just said we should get an aircraft err... helicopter carrier didn't I...).

:goodpost: [cheers]

Add in a AH/UH combo (Apache/Blackhawk or Viper/Venom) and you have a combination that could deploy usefully independently, or could be a useful reserve to a deployed medium brigade group.

The tailgate on the RoRo would allow for a medium battle group to deploy from the hull across a dock (fixed or floating).

It may not meet the need for armageddon in sea state 9  but it would probably serve in less fraught situations.  Or more situations than we can currently address.

Just for reference, the ship I posted above is the ex MV Cragside, now the MV C Ocean Trader (633 ft and 20,000 tonnes - Resolve is 600 ft and 26,000 tonnes) 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_C_Ocean_Trader
https://medium.com/war-is-boring/the-navys-getting-a-big-secretive-special-operations-mothership-12801da6f353

Ocean Trader is a close relative of the Point Class RoRos chartered by the MOD in the UK for moving kit (633 ft and 23,000 tonnes)

Capacity:
14,200 dwt
2,650 linear metres of space for vehicles
130 armoured vehicles and 60 trucks and ammunition or 8,000 tonnes of vehicles
Crew: 18-22
Aviation facilities: Can carry up to four helicopters including Chinnok, Apache, Merlin and Wildcat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point-class_sealift_ship

And further to the issue of needing a well deck :  HMS Ocean