Will CSOR have a set of regimental colours

[Michael OLeary]

They (particlularly JTF2) are like no other unit in CF history.  Therefore, conventional interpretations cannot be applied to unconventional units.

Which is why my initial response stated:

That may first require a revision to the reference A-AD-200-000/AG-000 THE HONOURS, FLAGS AND HERITAGE STRUCTURE OF THE CANADIAN FORCES which gives the following under entitlement to colours:

 

[geo]

The JTF2 as a sub unit of CSOR close with and destroy the ennemy.  In the most simple of defenitions, the CSOR should or could be entitled to Colours upon which it's battle honours are adorned.  Then again.... The Engineers are often in contact with the ennemy - but do not carry colours.... because they are everywhere and should they be asked to carry colours upon which they had to display their battle honours, they would reuquire a colour ensign some eight feet in height - able to carry colours large enough to display them properly. 

CHIMO!

 

[George Wallace]

.... because they are everywhere and should they be asked to carry colours upon which they had to display their battle honours, they would reuquire a colour ensign some eight feet in height - able to carry colours large enough to display them properly. 

CHIMO!

Actually, I do believe there is a limit as to how many can be displayed on the Colours.  Also, not all Battle Honours are displayed, which would leave plenty of room if properly laid out.

 

[ettibebs]

I just want to understand what was the original role of rifle regiment and why does this role prevent them from getting color? 

 

[geo]

Och! You speak herresey!

It would appear that one of Queen Victoria's sons was an officer in the Royal Engineers
When he complained to his mum, via proper channels of course, she sent a queery to her CDS

The Engineers were given the designation UBIQUE, to indicate that they have been and are everywhere
(not to be confused with the Artillery and their designation UBIQUE, which indicates that they are all over the place) consequently, it is the only battle honour it requires.  As HRH dictated, "make it so", so it was and so it is.

That's my story and I'm gonna stick to it.

 

[Michael OLeary]

I just want to understand what was the original role of rifle regiment and why does this role prevent them from getting color? 

"Colours may only be presented to . . . . army . . .  units organized and roled to stand in the line of battle; ..."

Rifle regiments were not orginally organized to "stand in the line of battle", but fought in dispersed formations.  This dispersion negated the usefulness of colours in their traditional battelfield role.

 

[ettibebs]

thx for the info

 

[Haggis]

The JTF2 as a sub unit of CSOR close with and destroy the ennemy.

JTF2 is not a sub unit of CSOR.  Both are units of CANSOFCOM.

 

[geo]

Whups!
Silly me!... there you go kicking my theories to hell and back
You are 100% correct. JTF2, CSOR and their Air Sqn are all units that compose CANSOFCOM.

 

[dapaterson]

Whups!
Silly me!... there you go kicking my theories to hell and back
You are 100% correct. JTF2, CSOR and their Air Sqn are all units that compose CANSOFCOM.

And, of course, the JNBC Coy as well...

 

[geo]

(Ohhh... them!) yes, them too

 

[Haggis]

And, of course, the JNBC Coy as well...

I was about to point that out but that "other guy from NDHQ" beat me to it. 

Regarding Battle Honours, there a re no set limits on how many in total may be emblazoned on the colours.  However there are limits for WW1 and WW2 of 10 each and two for Korea.

Addtionally  A-AD-200 states at Chapter, 3, Secvtion 2 para 26e: "A unit may only bear honours granted in its own
right. Those of previous Canadian units may only be emblazoned if authorized by formal perpetuation in accordance with established
Canadian traditions and practice. See Section 1, paragraphs 15 to 17."

Paras 15 to 17 regard "Perpetuation" and read as follows:

15. Perpetuation is a unique Canadian system developed after the First World War to provide a formal means of preserving military operational honours and heritage for succeeding generations. It is government policy that disbanded units, which have gained an
honour and/or distinction in the field, be perpetuated to preserve their memory. Disbanded units which have not gained an honour or distinction in the field shall not be perpetuated. Units perpetuated by disbanded units which are not eligible for perpetuation may, subject to
the concurrence of the disbanded units' authorized or officially recognized association(s), be perpetuated by an extant unit.

16. Perpetuation is a public declaration of a family inheritance from a distinguished Canadian ancestor, and entitles the perpetuating unit to the honours of its predecessor. Thus, although few Canadian regiments were mobilized as such for overseas service in the First
World War, most have battle honours earned in the war.

17. By naval and air force custom, ships and flying squadrons with the same name or number, respectively, as a predecessor on the Canadian order of battle automatically perpetuate that predecessor. (For flying squadrons, this custom does not apply if the
earlier unit changed identity through amalgamation – the amalgamated unit continues the lineage and all rights and privileges.)

(Understanding that this is Army.ca, I intentionally left para 17 in, owing to the "joint" nature if CANSOFCOM units.)

 

[Michael OLeary]

Paras 15 to 17 regard "Perpetuation" and read as follows:

15. Perpetuation is a unique Canadian system developed after the First World War to provide a formal means of preserving military operational honours and heritage for succeeding generations. It is government policy that disbanded units, which have gained an honour and/or distinction in the field, be perpetuated to preserve their memory. Disbanded units which have not gained an honour or distinction in the field shall not be perpetuated. Units perpetuated by disbanded units which are not eligible for perpetuation may, subject to the concurrence of the disbanded units' authorized or officially recognized association(s), be perpetuated by an extant unit.

So, to return to the orginal question ....  by this description, if the definition limiting eligibility to "units organized and roled to stand in the line of battle" were revised, then CSOR would not perpetuate the Airborne Regiment, but could (subject to concurrence, etc.) perpetuate the First Special Service Force.

 

[geo]

(Uhh Michael.... didn't the CAR carry the battle honours of the 1st SSF?)

 

[3rd Herd]

From what small articles I have seen since the inception of CSOR the predominant view expoused is that their would be no objection to the FSSF linkage and color usage. In conversing with a couple of folks on both sides of the boarder this view is also favourably looked on, but do they have enough weight to see it through ? In part, I surmise it has already started with the public coverage of various reunions between CSOR and the FSSF veterans. I would not be surprised to see a position paper come out in the next while advocating the same.

 

[bick]

Yes, The Canadian Airborne Regiment proudly carried the battle honours won by the First Special Service Force and the 1st Canadian Parachute Battalion.

 

[Michael OLeary]

(Uhh Michael.... didn't the CAR carry the battle honours of the 1st SSF?)

Yes, but read the reference again.

The CAR, having no battle honours of their own, are not eligible to be perpetuated. 

Disbanded units which have not gained an honour or distinction in the field shall not be perpetuated.

The FSSF, which was perpetuated by the CAR is eligible to be further perpetuated by an existing unit.

Units perpetuated by disbanded units which are not eligible for perpetuation may, subject to the concurrence of the disbanded units' authorized or officially recognized association(s), be perpetuated by an extant unit.

 

[Haggis]

It would seem that the question of CSOR colours and perpetuation has been answered:

CANFORGEN 029/08 CDS 002/08 041846Z FEB 08
PERPETUATION OF 1ST CANADIAN SPECIAL SERVICE BATTALION, CIC, CASF BY THE CANADIAN SPECIAL OPERATIONS REGIMENT
UNCLASSIFIED

REFS: A. SECOND MEETING OF THE BATTLE HONOURS COMMITTEE 27 SEP 07
B. THE PRINCIPLES AND ELIGIBILITY CRITERIA FOR THE AWARD OF CANADIAN FORCES BATTLE HONOURS
C. A-AD-200-000/AG-000, THE HONOURS, FLAGS AND HERITAGE STRUCTURE OF THE CF

AT REFERENCE A, THE BATTLE HONOURS COMMITTEE UNANIMOUSLY RECOMMENDED THAT THE 1ST CANADIAN SPECIAL SERVICE BATTALION, CIC, CASF (1ST CSSB) BE PERPETUATED BY THE CANADIAN SPECIAL OPERATIONS REGIMENT (CSOR). PERPETUATION IS A UNIQUELY CANADIAN SYSTEM THAT PROVIDES A MEANS OF PRESERVING MILITARY OPERATIONAL HONOURS FOR SUCCESSIVE GENERATIONS. THE SYSTEM WAS DEVELOPED BY THE ARMY AND USED EXTENSIVELY TO SAFEGUARD THE RECORD OF SERVICE OF CANADIAN EXPEDITIONARY FORCE UNITS DURING THE FIRST WORLD WAR. THE SYSTEM HAS CHANGED LITTLE OVER THE YEARS. ONLY COMBATANT UNITS THAT HAVE GAINED AN HONOUR AND/OR DISTINCTION IN THE FIELD MAY BE PERPETUATED AND ONLY SERVING COMBATANT UNITS WITH A PROVEN LINK TO THE PREVIOUS ONE CAN CLAIM AND BE AWARDED THE HONOUR OF PERPETUATION

PERPETUATION RULES ARE DESIGNED TO FIND THE MOST SUITABLE MATCH FOR DISBANDED UNITS WITH UNITS ON THE CURRENT ORDER OF BATTLE. THE ONLY CURRENTLY EXISTING CF UNIT MATCHING THE NATIONAL REACH AND ROLE OF THE 1ST CSSB IS CSOR

THE 1ST CSSB CARRIES NINE BATTLE HONOURS FROM ITS SERVICE DURING THE SECOND WORLD WAR, SEVERAL OF THESE HONOURS ARE UNIQUE WITHIN THE CANADIAN ARMED FORCES. BY PERPETUATING THIS UNIT, CSOR WOULD BE AUTHORIZED TO EMBLAZON THE LATTER S BATTLE HONOURS ON ITS REGIMENTAL COLOUR. THERE WOULD BE NO EFFECT UPON THE LINEAGE OR PRECEDENCE OF CSOR

I HEREBY GRANT THE PERPETUATION OF 1ST CSSB TO CSOR. THIS PERPETUATION WILL INSTITUTIONALIZE THE MEMORY OF THE DEEDS AND SACRIFICES MADE BY THOSE 1ST CSSB PERSONNEL WHO CONTRIBUTED TO A UNIQUE PERIOD IN CANADA S MILITARY HISTORY AND CSOR WILL BECOME THE OFFICIAL SAFE-KEEPER OF THIS HERITAGE FOR THEM ALL


SIGNED BY GEN R.J. HILLIER, CDS

and

CANFORGEN 030/08 CDS 003/08 041846Z FEB 08
HONOUR-BEARING STATUS FOR CANSOFCOM UNITSUNCLASSIFIED

REFS: A. SECOND MEETING OF THE BATTLE HONOURS COMMITTEE 27 SEP 07
B. THE PRINCIPLES AND ELIGIBILITY CRITERIA FOR THE AWARD OF CANADIAN FORCES BATTLE HONOURS
C. A-AD-200-000/AG-000, THE HONOURS, FLAGS AND HERITAGE STRUCTURE OF THE CF

AT REFERENCE A, IT WAS UNANIMOUSLY RECOMMENDED THAT JOINT TASK FORCE TWO (JTF 2) AND THE CANADIAN SPECIAL OPERATIONS REGIMENT (CSOR) BE AFFORDED HONOUR-BEARING STATUS. THIS STATUS IS AFFORDED TO COMBATANT UNITS WHOSE FUNCTIONAL PURPOSE IS TO CLOSE WITH AND CONQUER, NEUTRALIZE OR DESTROY THE ENEMY AS AN EFFECTIVE FIGHTING FORCE

ONLY COMBATANT MILITARY UNITS ARE ENTITLED TO BE PUBLICLY RECOGNIZED FOR ACTIVE PARTICIPATION IN BATTLE AGAINST A FORMED AND ARMED ENEMY THROUGH THE AWARD OF BATTLE HONOURS AND HONORARY DISTINCTIONS

I HEREBY GRANT HONOUR-BEARING STATUS TO JTF 2 AND CSOR. THE GRANTING OF THIS STATUS WILL CONTRIBUTE TO THE MORALE AND ESPRIT DE CORPS OF ALL PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE MEMBERS OF OUR SPECIAL OPERATIONS FORCES FAMILY

SIGNED BY GEN R.J. HILLIER, CDS

 

[geo]

well:
BZ to that.

 

[ArmyRick]

I guess the CANFORGEN answers the question...