Would Mandatory National Service make the CF stronger?

[dynaglide]

Army Vern,
I couldn't have said it any better myself...Outstanding!!!!

 

[2 Cdo]

But we have to grow our numbers? Funny thing is, the way I remember it from back in those Cornwallis days? We never had any shortages of personnel who wanted to join and serve. Cornwallis was wall to wall recruits undergoing much more vigorous trg than todays BMQ and we had no individual rights. But guess what? We actually had discipline!! Maybe that's why much higher mental/physical stress courses ran constantly with no shortage of volunteers who got sworn at, yelled at, spit on etc ad naseum but managed to have the best time of their lives? Imagine that? Actual discipline in the Military and it's training. What an original idea.

Bravo and well said!

 

[mainerjohnthomas]

My Grandfather, all of his brothers, and three of his sisters enlisted in WWII.  By the end of that conflict, Canada had a huge mass of conscript soldiers who were totally undeployable, some of whom were even mutinous.  There were conscripts who fought hard, won honours, or fell where they stood, but these are the ones who probably would have enlisted anyway.  What did that mass of conscript soldiers who would not fight do for my Grandfather?  They did not free up men to fight; women volunteers had done that.  They did not provide material support, they provided a material drain.  They dishonoured the uniform, wasted training resources and experiences NCO's that could have been employed strengthening the overstretched expeditionary force.  Like many WWII vets, Grandad has often waxed both profane and eloquent on his desire to take a platoon of his Grenadier Guards through one of those mutinous camps and "wipe some shite off the maple leaf".  The US army experience in Vietnam, and Soviet experience in Afghanistan has not done a lot to change my mind on the usefulness of conscripts in modern warfare.

 

[Daidalous]

I voted "no" I do not want to work with someone who does not want to be in. And if they did they would have enlisted.  If you conscripted 50 you might get 5 that really come to work every day with drive, with 45 crying that they were "forced" to join and have XXX days left till they are done.

 

[big_castor]

My Grandfather, all of his brothers, and three of his sisters enlisted in WWII.  ( ... ) There were conscripts who fought hard, won honours, or fell where they stood, but these are the ones who probably would have enlisted anyway. 

Actually, a very small number of conscripts where sent overseas to fight and of that, a fraction saw combat.

 

[Koenigsegg]

Conscription does not seem to bad from looking at the more western European nations that have it.  Several have madatory service for men for 9 to 12 months.  Can choose to do non armed forces work, such as firefighter.  In Sweden firfighting work has a longer stay-in time than armed service.
Germany has it, and they are very professional in their service.  The Trades training could provide people with training they can use after they leave if they wish to, allowing for more skilled workers in the workplace.

I do not really know what would be better, conscription or no conscription, but if done right (no hippies, people allowing the CF to do their job discipline and enforced rules.  I dont the first two are possible though) we would have fewer fat people rolling around the streets.

I would not want the mandatory service to be too long for each person, 9-12 months maybe.  So people would dont want to be there wont cause too much trouble.  Strong pro-armed forces advertisement would be required, but our government does not seem to be too good at that.

I will do more research on conscription in the nations that have it.

 

[geo]

with the demise of the Communist block, most western NATO coutries have done away with their conscripts..... France is phasing their's out, so is Russia ......

what is it that they have figured out that others haven't?

No one has answered my question... what is it we want to do with this wealth of heads, hearts and hands.... once we have em?

 

[Long in the tooth]

IMHO conscripts do not make good soldiers, just waste training resources that should be used for volunteers.

 

[FastEddy]

Perhaps if we could roll back the recruting process to the times of 12-15 years ago (before your time)

But we have to grow our numbers? Funny thing is, the way I remember it from back in those Cornwallis days? We never had any shortages of personnel who wanted to join and serve. Cornwallis was wall to wall recruits undergoing much more vigorous trg than todays BMQ and we had no individual rights. But guess what? We actually had discipline!! Maybe that's why much higher mental/physical stress courses ran constantly with no shortage of volunteers who got sworn at, yelled at, spit on etc ad naseum but managed to have the best time of their lives? Imagine that? Actual discipline in the Military and it's training. What an original idea.

.

I couldn't agree with you more "ArmyVern", but I think you got my time a bit wrong, it was more like pre-1968, when most of the Corps Schools were at Camp Borden. When a RSM was on Deck, every rank below a Captain hid, Captains and Majors usually stayed indoors and the Colonel gazed out his window and knew everything was Tic-Ka-Tee-Boo and as it should be.(A bit exaggerated, but you get the point)

It was a time when Recruits were not all 6 foot 3, a 190 lbs, possessed a B.A. and were in perfect Physical Shape. (ahem, they were all sent to the Provost Corps lol) But really, they were selected for the Combat Arms as should be. But the other not so perfect, 5 foot, a little pudgy, grade 8 or 9 but psychologically acceptable were enlisted and assigned to the other supporting Corps, where they made fine Soldiers and performed they Trades with excellance. Lets face it they didn't have to poses this high degree of standards to perform their Trades, but in a pinch they could still pick up their weapon and defend them selves when their duce-an-a-half was blown off the road and coming under fire. Its amazing to what heights man can rise to in a life threatening situation. But like you mentioned, we had DISCIPLINE, and even the Whiners and I Wanna go Home, towed the line and most of the time eventually fell into step.

 

[TCBF]

"Ask any professional in the US military about how safe they felt around draftees during Vietnam.... you won't get a very favorable response."

- Most of those American draftees did pretty damn good.  And most of the professional Officers and NCOs who led them will tell you that.

Think the North Vietnamese Officer and NCO veterans today tell war stories complaining about THEIR draftees?  Not bloody likely either..

 

[GO!!!]

Extremely interesting thread!

I agree with geo on the subject of what we would do with all of those conscripts if we ever had them. The slackers of today, who volunteered, are able to figure out and use the system to avoid work and undesireable (to them) training at will, sometimes before even finishing QL3. I shudder to think how a conscript army could paralyze some of our services with people trying to ride out their year or two on a chit for "sore feet".

Armyvern, before you wax poetic about "the good ol' days" lets not forget that if we go too far back, you (as a woman) would not be permitted to join as anything but a medic or clerk, and later, could be kicked out for being pregnant. Soldiers were often poorly educated, alchol abuse was rampant, and the military was often viewed by the rest of society as an "employer of last resort" It was'nt all good!

I also find it interesting that no-one has mentioned the conscription crises that nearly tore this country apart in the past. Quebeckers have, in the past, violently opposed conscription to fight in "English wars". I would guess that this would also be the case today.

We should institute a draft if we need it, to defend the nation and her vital interests. We don't need to now, so let's stockpile the old kit, and train up a new army if we need to.

 

[Rory]

Not all conscripted soldiers are the downers who are counting the XXX days. Think of it, the public is generally uninformed so you take a few conscripts to BMQ and what might happen heads might turn and see the light. I am no way saying conscription will do this but I mean in todays world in any arguement you can never really say the sides fall into black or white, everything now adays is a beutifully muddled shade of gray.

 

[armyrules]

I think that once a young person gets to a certain age 18-22 or something along those lines, it should be mandatory to serve in the CF. A little military training never hurt anyone. Well maybe those few occasions Like all these little punks running around swarming other kids and all the crime  would be lowered because they would have some sense in their little heads  to do the right thing for one time in their life. Sorry about the rant this has been on my mind for awhile.

 

[Rory]

I mean myself is going to BMQ after graduation this year so I will be 18 and already volunteered myself into the reg force. But out of my high school, I know of about one other person who will enlist. That number used to be three but my friend decided working as a landscaper is better and left me high and dry in that sense. People just think about the immediate aspects of life now adays, not what you can accomplish later down the road, and in the military down the road you have many possibilities.

 

[canadianblue]

What about this, it should be mandatory to do a year when your between 18-22 in the reserves so its not to stringent on a person's life, as well as getting some military training and a taste of the CF. If a member enjoys it they can decide to stay with the reserves or switch to the fulltime force. I think this would be a good option, personally I wish I had gone into the reserves before the regular force just to get a taste of the CF, as well as get any education in that I wanted to do before going fulltime.

 

[Daidalous]

I still say conscription is very bad idea.  The CF will end up having to deal with the baggage oh any who are conscripted. Weather it be drugs, massive personal debt, how they conduct themselves and level of physical fitness.    It opens a massive can of work for suppervisors and money/resourses to get these people to the standard the CF expects of it's members.   Sure getting mass bodies in the system is good,  but you are only as strong as your weekest link.  And if some conscript does not want to be in and they have decided not to put forth any effort, then what do you do.  Kick them out?  Send them to jail then punt him?  Extend there contract?  Beat them?

 

[mainerjohnthomas]

Sweet gods, the reserves don't have enough problems?  No way do the reserves need conscripts.  If there was a national service that included a full spectrum of public service work, with the military as an option, then maybe.  If you dumped the mass of unmotivated crap that conscriptions net would yield into our current reserve system, we would envy a handful of shot in a bucket of spit.  The reserves need equipment, larger budgets for training, and job protection legislation similar to the US and Europe (No Swiss militiaman ever lost his job if called up too often) to retain experienced NCO's.  We don't need conscripts, we don't want conscripts.  Given more money, equipment, and job protection, the Reserves could expand a great deal, and provide a stronger support for the CF.  Given a mass of unmotivated unwilling bodies, the Reserves would collapse, and finally become the joke the Reg force has so long (and so falsely) cherished.

 

[Rory]

I think this thread has already proved one valid point, conscription is way to  messy to even be bothered with for a country that never started out with it. Look at all the points and counter points being given, IMHO it wouldn't work too costly no apparent bonus as many problematic soldiers may come up, no one wants a second Somalia like affair. There is no clear cut effective way to implement a form of conscription from the looks of things once you read the points and counter points, way to messy for our countries own good.

 

[armyvern]

Armyvern, before you wax poetic about "the good ol' days" lets not forget that if we go too far back, you (as a woman) would not be permitted to join as anything but a medic or clerk, and later, could be kicked out for being pregnant. Soldiers were often poorly educated, alchol abuse was rampant, and the military was often viewed by the rest of society as an "employer of last resort" It was'nt all good!

Rather GO!!! I "waxed poetic" about the good old days of actual honest to God discipline in our training system.
My platoon in Cornwallis just happened to be the first one that contained those first women going infantry. All 6 of them and us 2 other women in the midst of all those men. Save for an Armoured Pl WO, a female MCpl trucker, all of our instructors were PPCLI. DISCIPLINE. Do you know how hard it was mentally and physically being the first "guinea pigs" in a platoon full of Infantry recruits and PPCLI Instructors who at that point in time were, for the great majority of them, dead set against the CREW trials we were joining the Forces under?
We didn't have individual rights, we were called some pretty vicious names and were the evenings entertainment as we did our pushups with our feet up on the barrack boxes while the 100 some-odd males in the Pl sat around us in a circle and the instructors yelled, spit, kicked the barrack boxes and told us how unworthy we were. Well guess what? We're still around, still doing our jobs. I've met up with quite a few of them since those "good old days" and I harbour no ill-feelings or grudges and some of them are great friends today. The made us "grow" they stressed us out and they push us through hell...and we made it. We made it without individual rights, through crap that would never fly today, and made it just fine. You know why? We also learned discipline from this bunch of men. That was their jobs; and they did a great one.

Let's not turn this into another thread about "the good old days" and women vs men. That was not what my thread was about. It was about discipline. Full stop. We need it back. Desperately.

 

[geo]

Vern...
Guess you could call it .... a different perspective on discipline

most support trade types would've peed in their britches (and ain't talking fem or male varieties...