New accommodations facility at CFB Esquimalt and plan to build more homes on military bases

[YZT580]

One of the Victory Houses (I think) in Ottawa’s civic hospital neighborhood. Now worth close to a million dollars.
View attachment 87190

beautiful lot. Lots of space. Something we've lost

 

[FSTO]

beautiful lot. Lots of space. Something we've lost

Another one on the same street.

 

[dapaterson]

In most neighborhoods in central Ottawa, that sort of a house is a net negative on the lot, as the redevelopment potential is worth much more than the house.

I live in a semi-detached house, which results in about a 1/3 reduction in the resale value of my home (and land) in a desirable area in Ottawa.

 

[FSTO]

In most neighborhoods in central Ottawa, that sort of a house is a net negative on the lot, as the redevelopment potential is worth much more than the house.

I live in a semi-detached house, which results in about a 1/3 reduction in the resale value of my home (and land) in a desirable area in Ottawa.

The houses in that area have all been refurbished and upgraded. North of Wellington the mechanicville originals are slowly being gentrified.

 

[KevinB]

When the feds are beating you up for 'not doing enough', it's a pretty easy mea culpa to say 'ya, we are, but our data sucks - we bad'. Data collection is self-serving. They have a great website covering where to buy booze in the province, but not one to track hospital ER and other department closures.

I was more thinking of poor controls in the early days of in-filling older neighbourhoods. People were buying up older wartime or post-war houses, tearing them down and putting up a 3-floor monster that covered 90% of the lot and overshadowing the neighbourhood. It still only housed one family.

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At least in Calgary most of the infills were split into two lots, so you ended up with two home in what had been one.

My parents recently sold their back lot in Ottawa (they had bought the lot behind the house in the early 80’s when we moved there). Two infills went in behind them / which have no real lawn and to me are significantly ugly. But three homes now exist in where there was one.

Down here, when my wife and I build we specifically looked for an area that was zoned R2 meaning 1 house / 2 acre lot. So the minimum land around us is 2 acres — because I don’t like people

 

[YZT580]

At least in Calgary most of the infills were split into two lots, so you ended up with two home in what had been one.

My parents recently sold their back lot in Ottawa (they had bought the lot behind the house in the early 80’s when we moved there). Two infills went in behind them / which have no real lawn and to me are significantly ugly. But three homes now exist in where there was one.

Down here, when my wife and I build we specifically looked for an area that was zoned R2 meaning 1 house / 2 acre lot. So the minimum land around us is 2 acres — because I don’t like people

we have noticed

 

[childs56]

If the government wanted to build houses and be smart about it they would hire their own crews. Then build on their own land. Using bidding contracts like any other builder does for supplies and materials.
Instead they will have to bid out each project. Adding significant costs on top of the average price to build. Delaying the project for years over red tape.

 

[KevinB]

If the government wanted to build houses and be smart about it they would hire their own crews. Then build on their own land. Using bidding contracts like any other builder does for supplies and materials.
Instead they will have to bid out each project. Adding significant costs on top of the average price to build. Delaying the project for years over red tape.

The government doing anything is generally inefficient. Generally the Fed should only operate in areas where it’s not practical to have a private provider. I really don’t think you want the Fed Gov involved in the Housing Industry as a manufacturer/provider.

There are hundreds of large to small companies doing home building and 99.9% of them will be more efficient than a Gov entity.

Government regulations aren’t going to disappear simply if a Gov entity takes over.

For DND/CAF, you aren’t going to practically have a large enough CE component on a base to build houses for the garrison - and if one was to massively expand CE across the country, what gets done with those personnel when one is done with the housing builds?

There are a lot of companies who design homes, the CAF could select several different designs of similar size/space and have those build by local contractors, as well as contract some larger companies to build larger apartment style SQ’s

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

So the minimum land around us is 2 acres — because I don’t like people

And here I was thinking it was because you wanted good clean sightlines to the kill zone.

 

[KevinB]

And here I was thinking it was because you wanted good clean sightlines to the kill zone.

I’d want at least 20 for that But my wants are limited by my bank account

 

[quadrapiper]

The government doing anything is generally inefficient. Generally the Fed should only operate in areas where it’s not practical to have a private provider. I really don’t think you want the Fed Gov involved in the Housing Industry as a manufacturer/provider.

There are hundreds of large to small companies doing home building and 99.9% of them will be more efficient than a Gov entity.

Government regulations aren’t going to disappear simply if a Gov entity takes over.

For DND/CAF, you aren’t going to practically have a large enough CE component on a base to build houses for the garrison - and if one was to massively expand CE across the country, what gets done with those personnel when one is done with the housing builds?

There are a lot of companies who design homes, the CAF could select several different designs of similar size/space and have those build by local contractors, as well as contract some larger companies to build larger apartment style SQ’s

An NSS-esque construction kickstart scheme could be interesting: use a CAF housing (and maybe replace a few other things while that's going on) expansion to create a bunch of new civvy tradespeople.

 

[childs56]

The government doing anything is generally inefficient. Generally the Fed should only operate in areas where it’s not practical to have a private provider. I really don’t think you want the Fed Gov involved in the Housing Industry as a manufacturer/provider.

I would disagree. The government can be in a great position to build their own houses with their own contracted/hired company.
For example they could offer a contract for Bird Construction (example of a large enough company to build that many houses). To build 10,000 houses across the country. Bird Construction is already well established across the country and has local supplier deals already in place. Dnd could negotiate a better price based on volume.

There are hundreds of large to small companies doing home building and 99.9% of them will be more efficient than a Gov entity.

There are only a handful at best that are situated coast to coast and can handle large volume.

Government regulations aren’t going to disappear simply if a Gov entity takes over.

Dnd would not have to build to provincial or municipal codes. Just to federal code with consideration to those other codes if they make sense.

For DND/CAF, you aren’t going to practically have a large enough CE component on a base to build houses for the garrison - and if one was to massively expand CE across the country, what gets done with those personnel when one is done with the housing builds?

No expansion of CE, they couldnt organize a barn raising on a Hutterite farm. Let alone figure out how to build anything of thisagnitude across the country

There are a lot of companies who design homes, the CAF could select several different designs of similar size/space and have those build by local contractors, as well as contract some larger companies to build larger apartment style SQ’s

I would not hire multiple. I would hire one large contractor and have them responsible for the entire project. They already have crews/companies in place across the country who would work directly for them and Dnd.

For anyone saying 10,000 homes is not possible. That is actually a small number.
Projects are popping up with 1-2000 homes all over the place.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

You could rebuild a lot of the PMQ's as duplexes. However adding new structures requires infrastructure, meaning, sewer and waterlines, electricity, roads and possibly upgrading the sewage plant and the power substation.

 

[KevinB]

I would disagree. The government can be in a great position to build their own houses with their own contracted/hired company.

That is different that the GoC building directly - that is a contracted build - they are significant different.

For example they could offer a contract for Bird Construction (example of a large enough company to build that many houses). To build 10,000 houses across the country. Bird Construction is already well established across the country and has local supplier deals already in place. Dnd could negotiate a better price based on volume.

I'd suggest that may be true, but the likelihood of the GoC using one Contractor is low, unless it has ties to the Gov in power, which to me is best to avoid, least you get into an SNC-L, or Irving like situation...

There are only a handful at best that are situated coast to coast and can handle large volume.

One doesn't need Coast to Coast - one needs a local footprint, and unlike down here, none of your bases are really big Multi Division facilities.
Even the largest base wouldn't be over 4k total dwellings, and I would suspect few would need over 1,200 new ones.

Dnd would not have to build to provincial or municipal codes. Just to federal code with consideration to those other codes if they make sense.

I don't think that is how it works regardless if it is Federal Land, they still have to follow both Federal and Provincial Requirements.

No expansion of CE, they couldnt organize a barn raising on a Hutterite farm. Let alone figure out how to build anything of thisagnitude across the country

LOL

I would not hire multiple. I would hire one large contractor and have them responsible for the entire project. They already have crews/companies in place across the country who would work directly for them and Dnd.

I doubt the GoC would want 1 contractor, and while you may find some efficiencies in that method, the small business set asides and growth of the smaller business are generally what you should be trying to support.

For anyone saying 10,000 homes is not possible. That is actually a small number.

I would agree there.

Projects are popping up with 1-2000 homes all over the place.

Which for most bases would be more than enough.

 

[CountDC]

If the government wanted to build houses and be smart about it they would hire their own crews. Then build on their own land. Using bidding contracts like any other builder does for supplies and materials.
Instead they will have to bid out each project. Adding significant costs on top of the average price to build. Delaying the project for years over red tape.

They would have to bid out at most each base if they came up with a base plan. For example when I was in Ottawa they decided to builld X number of new units and invited contractors to bid on the job. They could do the same everywhere. Halifax we have this partial of land and we would like 50 duplexes.

I am not so sure that the provincial/local standards play a role. In Ottawa I had an above ground swimming pool and installed a fence. The neighbour called bylaw so they sent someone out who then contacted me. He explained that as it was Federal DND land bylaw had no jurisdiction and we were not under their rules other than dog control because DND had requested they enforce that. I do believe though that even if we don't need to adhere to their standards DND would want to meet them to avoid any possible further embarrassment. Imagine the headlines of the government providing sub-standard housing to the military.

 

[KevinB]

I am not so sure that the provincial/local standards play a role.

I believe for building code they do --

In Ottawa I had an above ground swimming pool and installed a fence. The neighbour called bylaw so they sent someone out who then contacted me. He explained that as it was Federal DND land bylaw had no jurisdiction and we were not under their rules other than dog control because DND had requested they enforce that. I do believe though that even if we don't need to adhere to their standards DND would want to meet them to avoid any possible further embarrassment. Imagine the headlines of the government providing sub-standard housing to the military.

Bylaws are different than building codes -- I believe DND has their own zoning ability, but that the buildings must meet the standard of both Fed and Provincial codes at least for human occupancy dwellings.

 

[Bluebulldog]

There are only a handful at best that are situated coast to coast and can handle large volume.

And the Federal Government would have a hard time justifying why it's keeping other builders and industry from being able to bid. The principle of fairness must also be applied.

Dnd would not have to build to provincial or municipal codes. Just to federal code with consideration to those other codes if they make sense.

The National Building Code actually can be far more onerous than Provincial and Municipal codes when it comes to housing. Where no standard is applicable in the National building code, it defers to the provincial.

 

[lenaitch]

They would have to bid out at most each base if they came up with a base plan. For example when I was in Ottawa they decided to builld X number of new units and invited contractors to bid on the job. They could do the same everywhere. Halifax we have this partial of land and we would like 50 duplexes.

I am not so sure that the provincial/local standards play a role. In Ottawa I had an above ground swimming pool and installed a fence. The neighbour called bylaw so they sent someone out who then contacted me. He explained that as it was Federal DND land bylaw had no jurisdiction and we were not under their rules other than dog control because DND had requested they enforce that. I do believe though that even if we don't need to adhere to their standards DND would want to meet them to avoid any possible further embarrassment. Imagine the headlines of the government providing sub-standard housing to the military.

Assuming that was on DND property, it would obvious that the municipal bylaws would not have jurisdiction. So long as your pool and fence complied with the National Building Code it would seem compliant, but who enforces that? The Housing Authority or are they just the landlord? Are there federal government building inspectors? The NBC is just a model (created by the NRC) but has no force in law unless and individual jurisdiction passed legislation to adopt it. Most provinces have their own building code legislation.

It would seem reasonable that construction on federal property follows the local building code. How would they expect local contractors and trades to be familiar with the minutiae of the NBC. How would they expect infrastructure to be connected to local utilities if it were not deemed compliant? Who would issue and Occupancy Permit (or whatever they call it locally)?

I know that the NBC does not apply on FNTs, but I don't know if it is for lack of anybody to enforce it or the band councils telling somebody wanting to enforce it to go pound sand. I've seen brand new builds on FNTs with obvious deficiencies.

 

[Bluebulldog]

Assuming that was on DND property, it would obvious that the municipal bylaws would not have jurisdiction. So long as your pool and fence complied with the National Building Code it would seem compliant, but who enforces that? The Housing Authority or are they just the landlord? Are there federal government building inspectors? The NBC is just a model (created by the NRC) but has no force in law unless and individual jurisdiction passed legislation to adopt it. Most provinces have their own building code legislation.

It would seem reasonable that construction on federal property follows the local building code. How would they expect local contractors and trades to be familiar with the minutiae of the NBC. How would they expect infrastructure to be connected to local utilities if it were not deemed compliant? Who would issue and Occupancy Permit (or whatever they call it locally)?

I know that the NBC does not apply on FNTs, but I don't know if it is for lack of anybody to enforce it or the band councils telling somebody wanting to enforce it to go pound sand. I've seen brand new builds on FNTs with obvious deficiencies.

If it were on DND property, and Federally owned, then The NBC would be the reference document for all drawings and specifications. Typically the contract authority ( An entity like Defense Construction Canada) would then have the project engineer perform inspections as part of Construction Phase Support CPS.

Occupancy would either be determined by the project engineer, or in conjunction with Fire and Life Safety FLS.

Connection to local utilities wouldn't be an onerous tasking. There would be a specified point either at meter, or transformer, or gate valve where DND owned asset would be connected to.

 

[CountDC]

Assuming that was on DND property, it would obvious that the municipal bylaws would not have jurisdiction. So long as your pool and fence complied with the National Building Code it would seem compliant, but who enforces that? The Housing Authority or are they just the landlord? Are there federal government building inspectors? The NBC is just a model (created by the NRC) but has no force in law unless and individual jurisdiction passed legislation to adopt it. Most provinces have their own building code legislation.

It would seem reasonable that construction on federal property follows the local building code. How would they expect local contractors and trades to be familiar with the minutiae of the NBC. How would they expect infrastructure to be connected to local utilities if it were not deemed compliant? Who would issue and Occupancy Permit (or whatever they call it locally)?

I know that the NBC does not apply on FNTs, but I don't know if it is for lack of anybody to enforce it or the band councils telling somebody wanting to enforce it to go pound sand. I've seen brand new builds on FNTs with obvious deficiencies.

In Ottawa at that time the housing authority had a small section that dealt with maintenance, inspections and were the ones to approve the fence. The neighbours went to the low man on the totem to complain and get him to agree we shouldn't have the fence or pool but he was over ruled.

FNTs do not fall under the building codes unless they pass their own legislation stating that is the standard to be used.

Federal land is difficult as searching I have found a mixed bag of answers stating the NBC is the only standard and others saying the provincial standard is the one to be followed. As for local contractors to be familiar with NBC standards - from everything I see that shouldn't be too hard as that is the minimum standard with some provinces adding extra to it for their standards. Basically they are already used to meeting a higher standard.