A Deeply Fractured US

[mariomike]

Thank god they aren't trying to defund the fire department.

Not exactly, but...

'It’s not just NYPD that needs dramatic reform. FDNY is one of the last great bastions of racism at the highest order.' - Eric Adams
https://twitter.com/BPEricAdams/status/1269682858722983936

 

[Ironman118]

Not exactly, but...

'It’s not just NYPD that needs dramatic reform. FDNY is one of the last great bastions of racism at the highest order.' - Eric Adams
https://twitter.com/BPEricAdams/status/1269682858722983936

:waiting:

 

[Remius]

How can they disband a police force?  We certainly need police for numerous things.  I am in favor of eliminating/restricting access to certain weapons they have.  I don't think a police department for example should have armored vehicles.  I think many of the weapons they have should be left to National Guard units if needed. Looking at some of these departments in the U.S. they look like they're better equipped than the CAF.

This I disagree with.  We should be equipping our police with the best possible tools for the job. 

 

[mariomike]

From last Monday to Sunday night, there were 13 murders in NYC, compared to five killings during the same week last year.
https://nypost.com/2020/06/08/shootings-and-murders-rise-dramatically-in-nyc-last-week/

Confederate statues falling like dominos.
http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/statues-of-confederate-figures-slave-owners-come-down-amid-protests/ar-BB15aCqg?ocid=ientp



Denver

"A long-planned program to remove police from some 911 calls is taking shape. Now a paramedic and a social worker will handle calls that have to do with substance abuse, mental health crises or people who just need help connecting to services."
https://denverite.com/2020/06/08/a-long-planned-program-to-remove-police-from-some-911-calls-launched-as-denvers-streets-erupted-in-police-brutality-protests/

Their words, NOT mine,  I only know the SOP for the jurisdiction I served. As explained up thread.

 

[Brad Sallows]

The "best possible tools" available to US police forces are in an entirely stratospheric league compared to ours.

1033 Program.

A good idea (much of the materiel transferred is mundane), but with some unusual edge cases.

From the Wikipedia article: "As of September 2014 more than twenty school district police agencies received military-grade equipment through the program.[22] The San Diego school district planned to return a military surplus vehicle after negative public reaction.[23]".  (The vehicle in question, a MRAP used as a SAR ambulance.)

 

[mariomike]

'Peaceful protesters' attack firefighters & EMS.
https://wibw.com/content/news/Fire-Fighters-assaulted-during-protests--571103371.html
“In cities from Atlanta & Austin to Cleveland & Minneapolis-St. Paul, our members were subjected to having bricks or large fireworks hurled their way, simply for doing their jobs. This is inexcusable” - IAFF

WASHINGTON, D.C. (WIBW) -- Firefighters, paramedics and EMTs are working harder to keep communities safe during a national state of unrest, even with debris thrown their way, says the International Association of Fire Fighters.

General President Harold Schaitberger says that while protests continue to be interrupted by violence the members of the IAFF are determined to keep safety a top priority.

 

[daftandbarmy]

This I disagree with.  We should be equipping our police with the best possible tools for the job.

..... and the best possible leadership, which is more important IMHO.

 

[Jarnhamar]

This I disagree with.  We should be equipping our police with the best possible tools for the job.

Agree with you (and with pretty much everything else you've posted in the thread).

Give police the best tools (weapons), equipment, vehicles to do their job (and protect me and my family).
There's some serious firepower in civilian hands. Not just little AR15s but guns that can reach out a kilometer or more. Police need access to equipment that can protect them against it and IMO reach out as far.


Question for you though. Taking into consideration the Stanford prison experiment (which I like referencing) do you think police equipped like special forces might also experience some role creep? Close with and destroy the enemy rather than serve and protect (or whatever). Know what I mean?
Is militarization of the police an actual thing or just a catch phrase for anti-police sentiment?

 

[Kat Stevens]

We carry C8's, remington 870's and just got our own ARV. You need to do a course to be able to use either, and even then there are only limited amounts per shift on the road, like 1-2 depending on the city. I can tell you they are definitely needed. Not being able to properly respond to a barricaded armed person because you have to wait for another region's police service to send their ARV is embarrassing. If the RCMP officers in NB had C8's instead of just their service handguns on June 4th 2014, they would probably still be alive today.

It's interesting hearing others viewpoints on taking weapons away from Police - because it obviously isn't founded in knowledge of any sort in armed person response or standard operating procedures regarding them. Look up the North Hollywood Shootout. Imagine if they had an ARV and high caliber weaponry?

You and I have very different definitions of an ARV, and who requires them. But if you’re hiring, I’m ARV qualified. 8)

 

[MilEME09]

Their is no question in my mind that the equipment is needed however, I think the conversation needs to happen of just how much is needed, who gets the training, and when is it employed. In some way police, especially in the states do look overly militaristic when geared up, for a tactical unit that's fine. How much is too much though for your average beat cop?

 

[blacktriangle]

I've never understood the outrage over a police tactical team using something like an American MRAP or AGMS. Let the tactical experts (who are the ones actually risking their lives) dictate what tools they need to accomplish the tasks society has entrusted them with.

 

[Remius]

As pointed out I’m no expert but wouldn’t it depend on what we define as an average beat cop?

RCMP do unique remote stuff with back up hours away in some cases.  How do we equip them? How should we equip them?

Not disagreeing with you.  I’m not sure if the average police officer should look like JTF2 about to board a ship.  But is that really what they look like day to day or what we see when the media shows up at an incident where ERT or swat show up?  I see police officers day to day in my work (not now of course) and most look like police should look.  Vest, side arm, asp, handcuffs, sometimes tasers.  Some wear peak hats some don’t.  Not sure what the protocol is.  But some mall security guys look very similar minus the sidearms and tasers.

(At least the police aren’t wearing spartan helmet and punisher patches)

As for the ARV, they seem more like armoured SUVs more than anything else. Not sure why having an armoured car for protection is an issue for some.

 

[OceanBonfire]

Small-town vigilantes duped into standing guard for Antifa ‘bus invasion’ hoax

Hundreds of armed, primarily white vigilantes have come out in recent days not to protest the death of George Floyd, but to defend their small towns from Antifa “invasions” that haven’t happened.

These would-be vigilante groups seem to have fallen for a far-right hoax on social media, which warns that busloads of anti-fascist agitators are being sent to small towns to destroy their white-owned farms and businesses. There is currently no evidence to support that claim, according to media reports and statements by multiple police departments across the United States.

Nevertheless, groups of right-wing gun-lovers have been standing on guard against a made-up invasion in recent weeks, amid unproven claims from the White House that protest-related looting is the work of Antifa, rather than opportunistic protesters. U.S. President Donald Trump has even attempted to label Antifa as a terrorist organization — although it’s much closer to an unorganized movement of far-left individuals.

...

https://globalnews.ca/news/7038764/antifa-bus-george-floyd-protests/

 

[Ironman118]

You and I have very different definitions of an ARV, and who requires them. But if you’re hiring, I’m ARV qualified. 8)

Just to clarify - it's an armored response vehicle that our tac team uses for armed and barricaded people, basically rolling cover. I should have mentioned it's for the tactical guys only, the beat guys aren't rolling around in ARV's  :rofl:

 

[Ironman118]

Their is no question in my mind that the equipment is needed however, I think the conversation needs to happen of just how much is needed, who gets the training, and when is it employed. In some way police, especially in the states do look overly militaristic when geared up, for a tactical unit that's fine. How much is too much though for your average beat cop?

Officers on the road that are scheduled to have either a C8 or a 870 don't look any different than other police officers, other than the fact they have access to that weapon (usually 1 of each per city). In the states I have seen officers pull out helmets and other misc stuff from their trunks, but I think it differs per department.

 

[blacktriangle]

I don't see any issue with patrol officers having access to something like a C8.

Hypothetical: Suspicious activity is noticed around a government building, or direct threats are made against people working there. What's wrong with having a couple LEO armed with C8 pull some shifts there? I know I'd feel safer, and it's a credible deterrent.

But I'm not an expert, merely a taxpayer that wants to sleep peacefully in my bed tonight.

 

[Remius]

I don't see any issue with patrol officers having access to something like a C8.

Hypothetical: Suspicious activity is noticed around a government building, or direct threats are made against people working there. What's wrong with having a couple LEO armed with C8 pull some shifts there? I know I'd feel safer, and it's a credible deterrent.

But I'm not an expert, merely a taxpayer that wants to sleep peacefully in my bed tonight.

For a while after the war memorial shooting, Ottawa police were doing just that.

 

[Brad Sallows]

"opportunistic protesters"

Looters?

I yearn for the day when English will be more like German (long words strung together) than like Chinese (short and to the point).

"right-wing gun-lovers"

"an unorganized movement of far-left individuals"

Good to see straight news reporting without editorialization.

Reminds me, though, that the army is not the force of last resort.  The force of last resort is organized vigilantism.

 

[blacktriangle]

For a while after the war memorial shooting, Ottawa police were doing just that.

Exactly, Ottawa is a perfect example. I'm willing to bet there is a silent majority of people that are ok with Police taking a measured response to real or perceived threats. They are also the ones likely footing the majority of the bill for policing through their taxes. I think those advocating for no police or poorly paid police that ride around in the backs of pickup trucks, haven't ever been to a place where that's a reality.

On the other side of the argument though, I feel for those who are genuinely being discriminated against or oppressed. You can peacefully protest all you want, but if nothing changes year after year, what are you supposed to do?

 

[Brad Sallows]

But things do change, year after year.  Just not everywhere and all at once.