A Deeply Fractured US

[Eaglelord17]

I must admit, the gangs of assault rifle armed militia on both sides are new touch. Back in the 60s and 70s those were confined to the National Guard. But I guess that's what you get when you have a runaway 2nd Amendment and really stupid open carry laws.

:stirpot:

The Black Panthers were around back then...

 

[QV]

Not sure if this should go in this thread or the US Presidency thread.  I put it here because I believe the Russia collusion hoax and the MSM participation in that scandal are part of the basis for the deep divisions in the US.  Like I've said over and over, this is the greatest scandal in US political history, these were and are seditious acts and the purpose was to ensure an outcome of an election and when that failed to damage the sitting POTUS, to impeach, and sway the outcome of the midterms.  There needs to be harsh accountability.   

https://justthenews.com/accountability/russia-and-ukraine-scandals/florida-congressman-says-doj-could-pursue-treason

Rep. Greg Steube, R-Fla., sharply rebuked the FBI and suggested that the Department of Justice could potentially pursue charges of treason in connection with conduct related to the Trump-Russia investigation.

"If it's not clear to you now, it should be abundantly clear when these indictments start coming out for individuals involved in this through the Durham probe, that ... this was a politicized, weaponized FBI at the highest level that was solely trying to take down a presidential campaign and then an incumbent president once he got sworn in—and that should scare every American," Steube said during an interview with the John Solomon Reports podcast.

I agree with Steube. 

 

[Brad Sallows]

"Treason" is defined and interpreted very narrowly in the US, and doesn't fit.  Corruption, abuse of power/office/authority, and various other lesser descriptions would do.

 

[OldSolduer]

The Black Panthers were around back then...

But did they pass their handling tests? I jest

 

[CBH99]

I'm quite comfortable with America being the worlds dominant super power and for Canada's sake I hope it remains so.  I wouldn't be comfortable at all if America was supplanted by China or Russia.

Agreed.  For all of the bumps in the road America is currently hitting -- and there have been some serious potholes -- I do hope America remains the global superpower.  Big time.

The US military, by and large, continually demonstrates professionalism as an organization.  Professionalism and effectiveness, and an ability to outclass anybody else in the world in a variety of areas.  And while foreign policy has unfortunately been influenced by corporate greed, I imagine that has always been the case to some extent.  Not just with America, obviously China and Russia have the same influences inside their respective governments also.


I wouldn't want China having any more influence in the world than it already does.  It would be an ugly and dangerous place.  :2c:

 

[FJAG]

The Black Panthers were around back then...

This:

Doesn't hold a candle to this:

:stirpot:

 

[stellarpanther]

It's getting crazier and crazier by the day over there.  Some of my friends including American friends used to tell me they thought there was going to another civil war over there because of the race problems.  I always told them it wasn't going to happen.  I still am not convinced it will happen but I'm not as sure as I once was. 

 

[Brad Sallows]

The current "crazy" is not really a race problem.  There is a race problem, and it's at the front of discussion, but most of the people genuinely interested in reform are talking, not fighting.  If Democrats are willing to share credit for a police reform bill with Republicans, we might even see police reform legislation hit the president's desk.  (But I think they'll stall until after the election.)

The "crazy" problem is the habitual shit-disturbers, who have used various protests as a launch point to bring their political agenda - whatever it is, if indeed it is anything except an excuse to riot - back up to a boil.

There are many people with firearms in the US, and many show up at events, but the dog keeps refusing to bark.  At some point a thinking person has to concede that the hand-wringing over people openly carrying small arms, or merely owning them, is overdone.

 

[brihard]

https://justthenews.com/accountability/russia-and-ukraine-scandals/florida-congressman-says-doj-could-pursue-treason

I agree with Steube.

As long as you understand that Steube is playing at politics, and not law. Given that he has a law degree and worked in the field briefly (JAG officer in the army), he obviously knows better than to think that the offense as defined in the constitution fits the circumstances. So that makes him disingenuous.

 

[QV]

Semantics.  There was criminal wrong doing targeted at a political campaign and then after the sitting POTUS.  Sedition, subversion, treasonous behavior.  Understood the specific charge of treason can't be made out, but whatever law the US has that can be made out in this circumstance ought to be made out. 

 

[Good2Golf]

Semantics.  There was criminal wrong doing targeted at a political campaign and then after the sitting POTUS.  Sedition, subversion, treasonous behavior.  Understood the specific charge of treason can't be made out, but whatever law the US has that can be made out in this circumstance ought to be made out.

‘Alleged’ wrong doing.

It’s not criminal until a court decides it is.

Can’t play it both ways.

 

[FJAG]

Interesting:

Minneapolis 'Umbrella Man' who sparked AutoZone fire is Hell's Angels member: police
Police identified the suspect, 32, through an emailed tip
By Stephanie Pagones | Fox News

A man captured on surveillance video smashing windows at a Minneapolis AutoZone in the wake of George Floyd’s death is a Hell’s Angels member bent on stirring up social unrest, police said.


Nicknamed “Umbrella Man” for his all-black getup that included a hood, gas mask and black umbrella, police said the man’s actions led to arson -- the first of several that sent peaceful protests into chaos.

Police identified the 32-year-old suspect through a tip last week. Minneapolis police spokesman John Elder told the Associated Press Tuesday he could not confirm the name of the person involved, but said the investigation remains open and active.

“This was the first fire that set off a string of fires and looting throughout the precinct and the rest of the city,” Minneapolis police arson investigator Erika Christensen wrote in a search warrant affidavit this week, according to the Star Tribune.

...

https://www.foxnews.com/us/minneapolis-umbrella-man-autozone-fire-hells-angels-police

:worms:

 

[Good2Golf]

Probably fake news created by the Deep State.

 

[brihard]

Semantics.  There was criminal wrong doing targeted at a political campaign and then after the sitting POTUS.  Sedition, subversion, treasonous behavior.  Understood the specific charge of treason can't be made out, but whatever law the US has that can be made out in this circumstance ought to be made out.

Uh, no. Something being a specific criminal offense or not is not ‘semantics’. Accuracy and precision in such things is sine qua non for an effective rule of law. For a federal legislator to levy accusations of treason, a specific and extremely severe offense, when the law does not actually say that, is not a small thing. As I said, he is being disingenuous. While I recognize that the current executive struggles greatly to understand the difference between politics and the law - and often find themselves stymied by the latter - that isn’t something that observers should be cheerleading for.

 

[QV]

Uh, no. Something being a specific criminal offense or not is not ‘semantics’. Accuracy and precision in such things is sine qua non for an effective rule of law. For a federal legislator to levy accusations of treason, a specific and extremely severe offense, when the law does not actually say that, is not a small thing. As I said, he is being disingenuous. While I recognize that the current executive struggles greatly to understand the difference between politics and the law - and often find themselves stymied by the latter - that isn’t something that observers should be cheerleading for.

If you had watched AG Barr's testimony from the other day you might be happy to know Barr is not at all struggling with politics and the law.  He is sticking to the law.  Interesting that you have had no or very little comment that I recall about the matters Durham and Bash are looking into.  I'd be interested in yours, and others, commentary on those two probes.  There was a lot to say about the Mueller investigation and I think the Durham and Bash probes are equally worthy for commentary.   

 

[Donald H]

America created a racism problem that could be almost impossible to fix. They never did have a willingness to accept black people as equals and so blacks were relegated to poverty. This has resulted in their racism problem, which could be more correctly referred to as a 'race' problem.

Canada, G.B., and many other countries didn't treat their blacks so shabbily in the years following the end of slavery in general.

America's politics is currently almost totally involved with racism. Indeed, Trump has built his fascist agenda around racist hate which is a kickback from the Obama years in which the US south (mainly) could never accept a black president.

Is there any way forward for the US in the foreseeable future, now that it appears that black people are determined to make changes that will ensure their equality? Or is the quickest answer just a forced return to the status quo of inequality?

Or will Trump be defeated, which will allow the current situation to be defused and return to that which the US has considered normal and just about good enough?

First off, does anyone agree with my short analysis, and if so then what is the solution for the US.

I would suggest that without a solution the US could easily slip into armed violence in the streets regardless of the coming election results. The losing side is not likely to accept the outcome peacefully.

On a side note, does the US situation bode poorly for world peace?

 

[Retired AF Guy]

For those interested:

18 U.S. Code § 2381.Treason
U.S. Code

Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 807; Pub. L. 103–322, title XXXIII, § 330016(2)(J), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2148.)

Link

18 U.S. Code § 2384.Seditious conspiracy
U.S. Code

If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 808; July 24, 1956, ch. 678, § 1, 70 Stat. 623; Pub. L. 103–322, title XXXIII, § 330016(1)(N), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2148.)

Link

op:

 

[Brad Sallows]

>First off, does anyone agree with my short analysis, and if so then what is the solution for the US.

No.  You proceed from false premises.  You clearly don't understand what fascism is, beyond being a word that people throw around because it sounds nasty.  As long as the people who claim to be in search of solutions are determined to misuse language (fascism, racism) and redefine words which have become largely pejorative in order to include their political opponents, no solutions will be possible because the real problems will be unidentified.  (I concede it is possible that someone could accidentally fix a problem unintentionally.)  Trump is basically in the muddled middle, and is as much a political weathervane as Joe Biden.  How soon people forget that one of the early concerns Republicans had with Trump was that he was basically in line with Democrats.

If Trump is defeated, all of the race-related problems will be as they are now.  For example, the same municipal administrations will be overseeing the same police forces.  The main difference will be that there will be no Trump for municipal and state administrations to use as a "squirrel!".

What America's politics is almost totally involved with amounts to two things: controlling the chair (the one the president sits in), and the increasing gap between what conservatives want and what progressives want.

 

[mariomike]

On a side note, does the US situation bode poorly for world peace?

US Politics is likely the best place to ask that question.

 

[brihard]

If you had watched AG Barr's testimony from the other day you might be happy to know Barr is not at all struggling with politics and the law.  He is sticking to the law.  Interesting that you have had no or very little comment that I recall about the matters Durham and Bash are looking into.  I'd be interested in yours, and others, commentary on those two probes.  There was a lot to say about the Mueller investigation and I think the Durham and Bash probes are equally worthy for commentary. 

I’m sure you would, but my knowledge of US law is insufficient for me to have a well informed opinion on the probes. Knowing that, I’m not going to offer my own views, because I’ve learned to try to stick more closely to what I can speak knowledgeably on. I don’t see any benefit in arguing points I don’t know well enough in the interest of furthering a partisan political position. Sometimes I’d rather wait, watch, and learn. So I’ll have to respectfully decline your invitation to engage the ‘whatabout?’.

I *am* confident that ‘treason’ has specific legal meaning, and that the congressman is not speaking from a position of credibility, but rather speaking from some place else.