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A Thread About The Legality of Using Others Bandwidth- Renamed From the Original

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I think we pummeled the subject into the ground loooooong ago...................but anyday that semi-trivial topics rule the board instead of the more ominous subjects is a good day.

Besides after all these warnings I'm heading to Future shop to buy another computer and the ends to put on the hard wiring I did in the house so I won't need my wifi.
 
NFLD Sapper said:
Bruce I think we have really :deadhorse: to a pink stain on the ground now.

I think there is always gonna be two camps on this issue.

yep - those that are right and those that are wrong  >:D
 
ok,

1.

accessing an unsecured network is not always immoral because

a. some people intentionally leave their network unsecured to help out their fellow man, IE I was in the shacks in Gagetown long term, courses of MCpls were rotating in and out and wanted to keep in touch with their families.

b. some businesses leave their networks unsecured to draw customers, sony, apple, futureshop, starbucks, most small coffee shops, air ports, bus stations, etc all do this.

c. some government entities such as the city of Fredericton have established a city wide unsecured network to draw tourists and provide a valuble service to it's tax payers.

according to the against people connecting to those networks is a crime which is complete poppycock

2. Section 342.1 and 342.2 of the Criminal Code of Canada do not apply to anything made avalible to public frequencies. If only applies to private networks. if you have a private network, and run a copper cable out to a picnic table in the park with a sign that says "This is my Internet connection and it's unsecured" it would be assumed you are providing this for free. this is exactly what you are doing with your router with a wireless signal.

Your ignorance of how your wireless router works is your problem, you are putting your whole network into the public domain.

Morally you should not connect to any SSID labled Linksys or Default because the intent is not known. I agree you should always ask first and assume the user may not be aware of what is happening.

Ignorance is no excuse, you cannot claim I'm accessing your private network when you deliberatly installed a device that makes it avalible to public access. If your house was built on Public Property then you'd have no right to claim tresspass of people in the yard, which is one reason why it is illegal to build a private structure on public land, you would be trying to take from the public which is what you are arguing now, you want to reserve a piece of the public spectrum for your own use. THAT is theft in my opinion.

A case might be made if a user changes settings on your network but it is still a grey area. Just because the police take an interest and may not like something doesn't mean it's illegal. Just ask anyone who's had the police show up at their house just because a neighbor dropped a load in their drawrs seeing a legally transported gun case go from a house to a vehicle. War driving was appearntly called illegal by an officer, that tells me the officer doesn't know what he's talking about as the definition of War Driving is to map out where signals are comming from and document the signals, not connect to them which is certainly not illegal. The police may not like it as now you have vans full of equipment tracking other private citizens traffic but if they can't make it illegal to listen in on cordless phones with a scanner, how can it be illegal to map RF emmination zones?

3. Comparing illegally transmitting on a FM Commercial radio station's PRIVATE frequency to accessing a PUBLIC piece of the spectrum where it is legal for anyone to transmit as long as they don't interupt others intentionally is nonsense, it is illegal to transmit on PRIVATE radio frequencies not because the frequency is the radio companies property, it is the property of the Government of Canada, but because you - an unlicenced user - are interupting transmissions of a licenced user, on public frequencies no license is required, therefore all devices have to play nice with eachother. Unlicenced users broadcasting on a licenced users leased frequency is akin to vandalism.

4. once you connect your network to the public wireless frequencies you have exposed your entire network to the public the same as you have moved all your equipment to a picnic table in the park.

connecting to another users cordless phone would interupt their service, no incomming calls would make it in while you were using the phone, and they would not be able to make an outgoing call. You would not however be violating the users telephone agreement because the number of jacks used in the home would be the same. This is both illegal if you DON'T have permission, however legal and moral if you have permission.

5. Laws may change, but there is no law right now that says connecting to any and all publicly unsecured network is illegal as it would also make you a criminal as well by connecting to your own unsecured network as you are not allowed to claim ownership of the wireless signal you transmit.

I don't believe in intentionalling using ignorant user's bandwidth, I will not connect to an unsecured network with the default SSID, when I can I will ask the user for permission and offer to pay part of their bill. Morally that is the right thing to do. Informing people and helping them secure their networks is also a morally correct thing to do.

However, claiming that a novice user shouldn't have to secure their network because they don't know how their equipment works and make anyone who connects to their unsecured public WAP is a thief, condemns other novice users who connect to said network because they don't know how their equipment works.

it's a catch 22, and I'm not going to advocate charging a novice user with theft for clicking a single yes button, or if their laptop is set to use their own unsecured network with the SSID "Linksys", (which is the default wireless SSID for all linksys WAPs), windows WILL automatically connect to ANY unsecured wireless networks called "Linksys" so you unsecured people may be inadvertantly commiting the same act you claim is a crime.

when you connect your network to public domain, you make your whole network public domain. WiFi is public no matter where the signal emminates from.

 
c_canuk, at the risk of extending this now idiotic thread further you are bringing in even more extraneous details.

The core argument concerns the use of private networks, not intentionally public ones.  It deals with the knowing use of an unsecured network when the owner is unaware of that use, which may cause further costs to that owner in a controlled bandwidth contract.  Any other cases and hypothesizing only serves to muddy the issue further and detract from the act of piracy/thievery we are trying to nail down as illegal, however hard to identify and prosecute it may be.
 
and my point is that once you deliberatly install a device that transmits your network traffic over a PUBLIC frequency you have just made your network PUBLIC the same as running a copper connection to that picnic table in the park and posting a sign saying "Unsecured Public Network"

and trying to make it illegal to connect to unsecured wireless networks because some people are ignorant of that fact makes no sense because it would make remove the rights of those providing unsecured on purpose,  when it should instead be made illegal to install a WiFi componet on a user's network without either securing it or informing them that it is unsecured and how to remedy this problem.

Morally the Cons have a point, legally they have no leg to stand on.
 
c_canuk said:
Morally the Cons have a point, legally they have no leg to stand on.

Thats interesting when the RCMP Muffin called says it is.......and Tess has listed the CC's that apply.


 
c_canuk said:
and trying to make it illegal to connect to unsecured wireless networks because some people are ignorant of that fact makes no sense because it would make remove the rights of those providing unsecured on purpose,  when it should instead be made illegal to install a WiFi componet on a user's network without either securing it or informing them that it is unsecured and how to remedy this problem.

I guess every supermarket should have a sign saying "don't steal the food" since I keep getting confused between those free samples I get and the stuff they want me to buy.

Your arguement makes that much sense to me..........how about a law that states those who wish to give it away have a 'pop-up' stating that?
 
c_canuk said:
and my point is that once you deliberatly install a device that transmits your network traffic over a PUBLIC frequency you have just made your network PUBLIC the same as running a copper connection to that picnic table in the park and posting a sign saying "Unsecured Public Network"

and trying to make it illegal to connect to unsecured wireless networks because some people are ignorant of that fact makes no sense because it would make remove the rights of those providing unsecured on purpose,  when it should instead be made illegal to install a WiFi componet on a user's network without either securing it or informing them that it is unsecured and how to remedy this problem.

Morally the Cons have a point, legally they have no leg to stand on.

Why does this keep coming around to it being the legal owner of the network's "fault" for having an open connection?  And therefore he's giving it away as a default assumption?

And why can you not differentiate between an open network which has been made publicly accessible on purpose (like a net cafe or Fredericton) and one that has been left open inadvertently or because the owner didn't understand the security protocols or due to hardware conflicts that prevent it?

Not having a fence is not an excuse to knowing trespass (because we're not talking about accidental connections, that red herring has been dispensed with).
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
Thats interesting when the RCMP Muffin called says it is.......and Tess has listed the CC's that apply.

the RCMP Officer was mistaken, and the Sections Tess listed don't apply to public networks
 
I've already posted a link where persons were charged, albeit along with other charges, for doing that.


Where's yours?
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
I guess every supermarket should have a sign saying "don't steal the food" since I keep getting confused between those free samples I get and the stuff they want me to buy.

the supermarket has a sign that says FREE, the rest of the food has a PRICE on it

the unsecured networks have a BROADCAST that says UNSECURED PUBLIC

the secured ones say SECURED PUBLIC

and the supermarket isn't using publicly owned food and realestate, it's private property with private goods

Your arguement makes that much sense to me..........how about a law that states those who wish to give it away have a 'pop-up' stating that?

how about we hold the providers responsible like we do with everything else, if your phone company put an extention to a picnic table in the park with a sign saying FREE you'd be pissed at them, not so much the people in the park who used it.

 
The governemnet should then force the manufacturers to revise thier hardware to make any home wifi routers to be private by default thus eliminating the grey area at it's source.

Cheers.
 
c_canuk said:
the unsecured networks have a BROADCAST that says UNSECURED PUBLIC

the secured ones say SECURED PUBLIC

Actually, the unsecured networks available for PUBLIC use have signage at the site (cafes, etc.) or advertisements and online listings (http://www.wi-fihotspotlist.com/browse/ca/2000279/1802038/) to make users aware.

In the absence of such information, the default assumption should be that it is a private network (even if it is unsecure), not that it is open for your use.

 
Snafu-Bar said:
The governemnet should then force the manufacturers to revise thier hardware to make any home wifi routers to be private by default thus eliminating the grey area at it's source.

Cheers.

Of course, anything except admit that use of a private unsecure network is wrong.
 
Alright troops.....agree to disagree, go to your corners.

This thread is now locked for a 24 hour cooling period.



The Army.ca Staff
 
Unlocked folks,

Please let cooler heads prevail, and not allow this to be locked again.

dileas

tess

army.ca staff
 
the 48th regulator said:
Unlocked folks,

Please let cooler heads prevail, and not allow this to be locked again.

dileas

tess

army.ca staff

Yes, dear.

:)

 
We’re exploring some difficult terrain.

There is a fairly bitter battle underway, right now, between:

1. On one side, the big telecomm carriers (Bell, TELUS and Rogers, etc, here in Canada) and monopolistic proprietors (like Microsoft): and

2. On the other side, a rather loose collection of open source providers (like Sun Microsystems and the emerging collectives (the mergers are going hot and heavy) of Linux implementers) and the ‘digital commons’ community.

Two important subsets of both sides are the mobile community and the hardware people. The hardware vendors are neutral: they win no matter who comes out on top in the jurisdictional battles.

The battle is especially bitter regarding the ‘mobile digital commons’ because the profits from (overpriced) mobile (cellular/PCS) services is all that stand between profits and bankruptcy for some integrated telecomm carriers.

Digression, but an on topic digression: fixed (wired) telecomm is a HUGELY regulated service, especially at the ‘price point’ level. Regulators in Canada and the USA demand that home/consumer services are provide at ridiculously low prices, well below costs. The regulators require the carriers to overcharge for consumer/home long distance, business services, generally, and especially business long distance and internet service in order to subsidize POTS – plain old telephone service – for residential subscribers. (That’s one of the reasons telecomm carriers, like Bell, are required to charge more for a second, business, line to a residence. You may get away with just getting a second telephone line – like the one some folks get for heir children - and using it for your home based business but the carriers are obliged to check up on you and charge you more if they determine that you are in breach of your contract.)

The ‘digital commons’ is especially popular in the MUSH (municipalities, universities, schools and hospitals) community but it is also spreading to other sectors – notably big business and residential or community ‘cooperatives.’ The mobile digital commons is a logical extension.

Canadian companies are at the forefront of he mobile digital commons movement.

The big telecomm carriers have few problems with the ‘digital commons,’ per se – at least not with the fixed (wired – immobile) commons. They can and do make money there. (You can, for example, negotiate ridiculously low ‘bulk’ long distance rates if you are a big enough customer: like the University of Toronto, for example. There is a reason that bulk long distance resellers (e.g. SmartReach) can operate and make a profit: the CRTC requires the big carriers to give the resellers, amongst others, low cost access – thus obviating the ‘barrier to (market) entry’ that building out a network might entail.) Once the copper wires and, increasingly, fibre optic links are laid (a very costly proposition) is in place it (the established, fixed network) can provide many, many profitable services at very low costs.

But, the fixed network is inflexible. If you want to extend it you must either install more wire/cable or build a radio system. Radio systems are inherently flexible but they are also very vulnerable, naturally vulnerable to interception and piggybacking.* If When users want highly flexible access then wireless is the only option and wireless technology and spectrum management issues – mainly how to avoid causing or suffering harmful interference – dominate the whole issue, including the law. 

The digital commons is related to something called the ‘campus area network’ that may be equal to or, more likely, is a subset of another something called a ‘metropolitan area network.’ The big work on these sorts of networks is being done in Asia, especially in India and China (but, in many cases, by Canadian companies) – because they both need to MASSIVELY expand their telecomm infrastructure and these networks are (almost?) all radio based or radio intensive because no one in Asia is dumb enough wants to waste time and money laying too much copper or cable, especially not for the all important last mile: the link between the nearest substation/local exchange/access point/etc and the user.

A ‘campus’ need not be tied to a university. A collection of big manufacturing plants may be a ‘campus.’ Many cities build ‘industrial parks’ in which many independent  businesses operate. Each industrial park is a campus.

This is the biggest threat to the big carriers. They want a universe in which each and every one of us pays to have his/her own, private landline link and his own private wireless link. The ‘open source’ and ‘digital commons’ folks want to pay for their share of the fixed infrastructure but they want ‘free’ access – including wireless access - to that big, global fixed and mobile network. It is possible, indeed simple, cheap and easy, to provide free (and electromagnetic interference free) wireless access to a campus area network. It is a bit more complex but nothing like impossible, to extend that ‘free’ access to a wide area or metropolitan area network. It is also easy to make dual mode and multi-mode phones that can work ‘free’ on campus area networks and, automatically, switch to a pay for use mode whenever a campus area network is not available.

Technology makes a ‘free,’ mobile digital commons possible. Free things are attractive and popular. A free, mobile digital commons threatens the telecomm carriers’ business model and, perhaps, their very existence; it also threatens the portfolios of many investors including pension funds and ‘widows and orphans.’ Big legal battles are looming but they do not involve piggybacking on your neighbour’s wireless router because there are much, much bigger fish to fry and no one wants to muddy the waters (those metaphors aren’t to badly mixed, are they?) by bringing into court a case that will likely be tossed out because the existing law fails to match the circumstances of the alleged offence.

We will need a whole new set of ‘digital’ laws, including maybe a ‘digital trespass’ law, that deal with some important technological questions. Consider, please:

• You capture an image that may be someone’s (or some agency’s) private property;

• If you simply store it, as a bunch of bits (0s and 1s), in a digital device, have you committed any offence? Should you have committed an offence? Ought here to be a law?

• If you transform the bits into some other useful form – an image, for example – and look at, yourself, in the privacy of your mother’s basement, have you committed an offence? Ought here to be a law?

• If you transmit the bits, the 0s and 1s, to someone else, have you committed a crime? What IS that bit-stream while it is in transit? Is it the private property of the original owner or is it just a bitstream with neither form nor value?

• Suppose, while the bits are in transit, some third party intercepts (captures) it and transforms it into something useful that is not the same as the image ‘owned’ by the person from whom you captured it? Has that third person committed an offence? Ought there to be a law?

Those are just some of the problems in the digital domain. Consider this (don’t worry about the fact that it is on You-Tube with all that implies). The words, the poem per se, is in the public domain but what about McKenna’s interpretation, her transformation of it? Is it still the same thing? What about the music? Tennyson did not write the music. Is the poem any different because it is now a song?

The issue is further complicated by the notion that, in 21st century Canada, access to the whole telecomm system, including the Internet, is a right – akin to the ‘fundamental right’ to food and shelter. Now, of course, there are those, me included, who say that there is no ‘right’ – fundamental or not - to food and shelter and that suggesting there is weakens the real fundamental rights to life, liberty, security of the person and property. Food shelter may be at the base (most important level) of Maslows hierarchy of needs but a need isn’t a right and ought not, necessarily to be one, either. But that perceived need and right to telecomm is one of the reasons we (through our regulatory agencies) insist that business subsidize residential telecomm service.

So, new laws are needed – to deal with complex situations and with a ‘dispute’ that may involve the very nature of private property, or of property itself. The ‘owners’ of a multi-trillion dollar global industry – telecomm, broadly – are fighting what I think is a rearguard action against a ‘digital commons’ movement that wants to fundamentally alter how we communicate and to reconsider the notions of intellectual property and of privacy.

Sorry, folks, I’m more than halfway to the character limit for a post. So: All this to say that the technological, business, regulatory and legal models or systems that, currently, corral the telecomm, including wireless, domain are changing quickly and may change very radically, indeed. The law, especially, has not kept up and, for the near to mid term, most likely cannot keep up with the changes. The law, including the criminal law, might in other words, be useless when it involves radio and telecomm services.

Morality and honesty and the like are important subjects but it is a mistake to mix them up with law – especially with laws related to business and property. Morality may be, should be clear, at least insofar as it concerns property, including telecomm type property, but the current laws (not just the enforcement of them) are in a grey area – and they are likely to stay there. And that’s why they will not, perhaps cannot be enforced.



--------------------
* Another (off topic) digression: During the Viet Nam war a company called E-Systems was contracted to provide most of the US backbone telecomm system in Viet Nam, proper. They built large COMCENs on hill tops, interconnected by microwave and tropospheric scatter radio links. The US military accessed these COMCENs and the network through shared microwave links (a military terminal at the US military site talked to an (identical) civilian terminal at the top of the hill or landline. The sites were managed by teams of E-Systems people – mostly Americans, but they were run, at he lower levels, by locally hired civilians. After a while some people began to wonder why the E-System sites were not being attacked with anything like the frequency or ferocity of the attacks on almost all other American installations. The answer soon became apparent. The E-Systems network was also the backbone of the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese communications system! The local workers (technicians) used common techniques to allow two differently configured signals to share the same channels – piggybacking of a type still common today: two differently configured signals ‘share’ the same link (landline or radio, sub-multiplexed or single channel, all same-same, no never mind) without one or the other being able to detect the presence of the other. Technology makes possible many unforeseen consequences.



Edits: several many typos and a few additional words/phrases here and there for clarity
Further edit: reformatted the first paragraph to make it clear(er)





 
ArmyVern said:
Yes, dear.

:)

tease.gif


dileas

tess
 
E.R. that was a good read.

Personally I don't really think there should be a grey area when it comes to public frequencies however.

before I begin, I want to ensure all I DO NOT condone taking advantage of an unknowing persons unsecured router, and will not use an unsecured WiFi connection if I'm not 100% sure it's free on purpose.

my concern is that Internet routers are johnny come latelys when it comes to the public spectrum and people who don't quite understand how they were used for decades want to push for legislation that will fundamentally cripple public spectrum.

Public spectum is like a community bulletin board, you post whatever you want, and people are free to read whatever is there, and respond to what ever they want.  In the case of an internet router, it posts information on how to connect to it. a fellow user can then respond with a request to join the network, the router can respond by assigning the requester an IP Address, and the requester at that point can request the router connect to web servers and return to it the results. This is not hacking this is announcing your presence to provide service, someone requesting service, agreeing to provide the service and accepting the new node as a member. that is an invitation, while spoofing a mac address, cracking encryption or sniffing the SSID of an unannounced WiFi network is most definitely intrusion.

If you child is standing on your doorstep calling out "free cookies", and I come over and say, "may I have one?", and the child says "sure" and gives me one... is it theft of your cookies because you didn't know your child was doing that?

on the other hand if I see your child eating cookies in your yard quietly and pretend to be you, try to Con my way into getting a cookie, or wait till the child's back is turned to get a cookie, that is most definitely theft.

Now this is where we get arguments, I submit that the router being an automatic device is responding to transmissions as a proxy for it's owner, and that the owner should be aware of what it's doing... other people consider this intrusion, yet it is still all on the public spectum. It's 2 devices talking in a public place.

Some people say that this is theft but for every other device and user on the spectum it is up to the node what it will respond to. The only rule enforced is that no one is allowed to jam the frequencies. By attaching a router that automatically responds to requests to your broad band, you have inadvertently provided a node to the public that will give access to your private broadband connection and possibly your other nodes on your network to a public spectrum via a proxy you haven't configured.

Basically the router is acting as your power of attorney for the network.

now this opens a can of worms... at this point technically your service provider could come down on you for making your private connection public and fining or press charges - yet in Canada you generally pay for access at a predetermined transmission speed and sometimes a max throughput, not number of people accessing it.

However if you leave a DVD in your drive and someone requests a copy of it... are you now inadvertently guilty of providing copyrighted material by automatic proxy... have you accidentally done the exact same thing as uploading it to a website? the basic structure is the same.

I think on this angle that the service providers could be held liable for not securing or informing the client that it should be secured

now some people might say, well if you make it illegal to connect to an unsecured wireless network you solve these problems... well no you don't, the router's owner is still liable and now you have made an even larger grey area.

No one actually "Connects" to another node on a particular frequency, with copper there is a standing wave maintained by both ends, but with WiFi you are simply yelling out and hoping someone replies. if you want to say that is indeed a connection and I'm going into semantics, consider this

with any device that uses the spectrum and automatically replies, cordless phones for example, all the nodes are listening and all the nodes are talking...

My Base station sends out a signal meaning there is an incoming call, all the cordless handsets in range (500m or more) receive it, they all process it to see if it is for that particular node, my handset starts ringing, I press talk, the handset sends a pick up the line message to all nodes on that frequency, and 2 separate datastreams are started, one from the base station, one from the handset. All Nodes are privy to this. This forces the other base stations and handsets to modify their behavior... they will all shift to a different "channel" on the frequency.

I understand the outrage of people who don't understand how the public spectrum works, but I don't agree with limiting who you can talk to since no matter which target node you want to "connect" to ALL Nodes will receive your traffic and ignore any not for them.

The onus has always been on the nodes to decide what they would release, now some people want to make it so that no one is responsible for what they release to the public domain.

I submit that the onus is on the providers and/or hardware manufactures to set the routers to discriminate by default as other devices work (IE cordless phones) rather than set to promiscuous mode to avoid this problem.  To limit transmissions by legislation is unenforceable as well as physically impractical, and will cripple all existing users of the spectum to please a statistically small number of users that have only been around for a very small amount of time compared to how long public spectum has existed.

Either way I will agree that yes, something has to be done. Most likely legislation, but I don't want the rules of public spectum changed for the ignorant at the expense of everyone else.

You also at this point cause interesting problems, the clients that have unsecured routers would be quilty of connecting to their own unsecured router, and this would make public wifi netorks that are intended for free access illegal to connect to.

I'm not trying to be inflamitory here, I'm just trying to explain my hesitation to making unsecured wifi's illegal to connect to. Not to mention how ham handed this sort of legislation tends to be.
 
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