A wierd OT... I need your help....

[mudgunner_07]

I am a reservist. I finished my PLQ in the summer of 05. I wasn’t up for promotion due to time in. However, my unit put in the DAPS paperwork to get me advance promoted. During this time I was approached to become an officer. I agreed and went through the process. However, I was adamant that should the DAPS paperwork go through I really wanted my leaf prior to being an officer, and was assured that both processes are separate and I could get my leaf then my commission should I successfully go through the commissioning process. I started the process in fall 05

In spring 06, I was accepted into paramedic school. The start date when I applied to this school in 03 was in September. The start date had since been changed to June. This meaning I would not be able to complete my PHASE training, and would likely be an officer cadet for a long time. I informed the higher ups of my situation and suggested that I would be more useful in the ranks as a possible Master then an officer cadet, which could not be farther from the truth since we were missing leadership in the JR’s. It was ok’d and in May of 06 I was promoted on a parade by the acting bty commander to Master. Several months later I received a call form the adj while I was in class saying I couldn’t wear my leaf outside the unit. The next day it was I changed to I couldn’t wear it period….

It turns out the situation was, in Feb of 06, Ottawa gave my unit the go ahead to “demote” me to Officer cadet. The unit did not and instead gave me my leaf. Massive communication error somewhere…… So at the unit Im a master and at bde and Ottawa I am an officer cadet. I told the adj well with my future in paramedicine up in the air I do not know when I can finish my Officer training and I wanted to be a master until then and he said ok, and there would be a board from bde meet on the issue in the fall to resolve this matter.

It took until Jan 07 to get paperwork from Ottawa requesting I do another medical/pso and fill out paperwork requesting OT back to the ranks!!!!

It’s almost been a year and I am still a bomber after formally being promoted on parade. I am adamant that my unit, fearing reprimand from bde has not told bde about them promoting me in June. My unit has patronized me by giving me the impression that I backed down when in fact I was just unable to do it (officer thing) under the circumstances. This is a serious matter, you can’t promote someone on parade and rekindle it, or can you??? I am thinking what would have happened in the reg force to a solider promoted then demoted. I am starting to look into the QR&O’s but this is such a unique situation.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated!!!!!!

Thanks

 

[Disenchantedsailor]

This is the part that will be hard to swallow, generally that would never happen getting your leaf and losing it again, and not becoming a Pte, and that would take a disciplinary action. 

The reason for that is advancement to Mcpl is not a promotion but an appointment.

3.08 – MASTER CORPORAL APPOINTMENT
(1) The Chief of the Defence Staff or such officer as he may designate may appoint a corporal as a master corporal.
  (2) The rank of a master corporal remains that of corporal.
  (3) Master corporals have seniority among themselves in their order of seniority as corporals.
(4) Master corporals have authority and powers of command over all other corporals.
That said you would have to have been proven to be incompetent, which I doubt is the case (of course the reserve world does some wierd things) spend 3 years in the CommRes myself and saw some wierd stuff, it happens, if I was you I'd take a look through my pers file (access to information) just to see whats there, if there is a msg from DGMC that says appointment to MCpl and it's older than 14 Days, then my man you is a MCpl (sorry but can't remember the abbriev for Master Bomber)

 

[armyvern]

(sorry but can't remember the abbriev for Master Bomber)

MBdr of the mud type.

 

[mudgunner_07]

And if not???

All paperwork within the unit says bombardier. I think I was promoted on parade but not on paper

anything from Ottawa says occifer cadet....

I am started to think ombudsman

Thanks for your input!

 

[armyvern]

I am started to think ombudsman

The Ombudsman won't touch you until you make the appropriate & proper inquiries and take action to resolve the situation at the lowest level first.

You were promoted on a parade, you were PLQ qualified (one of the pre-reqs for the appointment); you faced no disciplinary actions to have them remove your leaf, you were not appointed WSE on the parade.

Therefore, draft a Memo to your supervisor requesting they sign out your pers file and review it with you.

If the paperwork is on there, submit another memo in writing requesting that your leaf be reinstated.
If they say no, file your redress.

If the paperwork isn't on the file, submit your memo requesting that your leaf be reinstated as it was presented on the parade and no satisfactory explanation or reason has been given in their ordering of it's being removed from your uniform.
If they say no, file your redress. Be sure to attach statements (in official Memo form) from those who were witness to this promotion parade.

Then, if those redress' are lost, you continue up the proper grievance chain. Eventually, when that runs out....then you always have the Ombudsman, if he even agrees to look at it. But you must take the necessary steps to correct the problem first.

 

[mudgunner_07]

See steps have been taken to get my leaf back but the unit says its got to go to Ottawa ... So first from unit to Bde to Ottawa...  Which is this Ot I am doing... I dont know when I will see it. I think I should just put it back on sometimes and go from there... They say I will get it back when I am "bank in the ranks" according to Ottawa

 

[TAS278]

This is the part that will be hard to swallow, generally that would never happen getting your leaf and losing it again, and not becoming a Pte, and that would take a disciplinary action. 

The reason for that is advancement to Mcpl is not a promotion but an appointment.

3.08 – MASTER CORPORAL APPOINTMENT
(1) The Chief of the Defence Staff or such officer as he may designate may appoint a corporal as a master corporal.
  (2) The rank of a master corporal remains that of corporal.
  (3) Master corporals have seniority among themselves in their order of seniority as corporals.
(4) Master corporals have authority and powers of command over all other corporals.
That said you would have to have been proven to be incompetent, which I doubt is the case (of course the reserve world does some wierd things) spend 3 years in the CommRes myself and saw some wierd stuff, it happens, if I was you I'd take a look through my pers file (access to information) just to see whats there, if there is a msg from DGMC that says appointment to MCpl and it's older than 14 Days, then my man you is a MCpl (sorry but can't remember the abbriev for Master Bomber)

Happens all the time. Units will promote you regardless of current paperwork that is in for OT. As an OT isn't comfirmed until the call is received it would only make sense to promote. You have your appointment removed for obvious reason. QL3 (reg force) instructors are usually Masters.

 

[George Wallace]

The reason for that is advancement to Mcpl is not a promotion but an appointment.

3.08 – MASTER CORPORAL APPOINTMENT
(1) The Chief of the Defence Staff or such officer as he may designate may appoint a corporal as a master corporal.
  (2) The rank of a master corporal remains that of corporal.
  (3) Master corporals have seniority among themselves in their order of seniority as corporals.
(4) Master corporals have authority and powers of command over all other corporals.

This is the "meat" of the subject.  It is your answer.  MCpl/MBdr/MS is an "appointment", not a rank.  As such, Ottawa can not demote you from OCdt to that appointment (MCpl), but they can demote you to Cpl/Bdr/AB.  That is where you are.  It is now up to your unit to "appoint" you to that "appointment" again, or leave you as a Cpl.

 

[aesop081]

you can’t promote someone on parade and rekindle it, or can you??? I am thinking what would have happened in the reg force to a solider promoted then demoted. I am starting to look into the QR&O’s but this is such a unique situation.

They certainly can take it back.  I was once in a western-based RegF engineer regiment where the CO promoted the wrong individual to SGT.  Needles to say once the situation had been realized, some poor individual was back down to MCpl.

Now your case is somewhat different so use the system to sort the situation out.  I was just speaking to that part of yuor post.

 

[Quag]

It turns out the situation was, in Feb of 06, Ottawa gave my unit the go ahead to “demote” me to Officer cadet.

Just to clarify something, as a person who was appointed Bdr. to MBdr. or for simpler terms Cpl. to MCpl., you should know your rank structure. 
OCdt. would be a promotion as compared to how you portray it as a "demotion".  In fact, if you were a MCpl., according to the rank structure it would be a promotion of 4 ranks (Sgt., WO., MWO., CWO., OCdt.)

However, I can understand how you might consider it a demotion, as I have heard and know that in some reserve units, they treat OCdt.'s lower than untrained privates, which is not at all in adherence with the rank structure.  Regardless, I can attest to the fact that in the Regular Force, it is different.

Sorry, just wanted to clear that up.


(Inaccurate interpretation of rank structure struck out by Moderator to avoid likely tangential arguments.)

 

[Michael OLeary]

Folks, let's be very clear that this thread will not be allowed to turn into another spiralling debate over rank and authority of Officer Cadets.  That horse was beaten into a stain long ago.

Army.ca Staff

 

[xo31@711ret]

So at the unit Im a master and at bde and Ottawa I am an officer cadet.  

Maybe something I'm not getting, but (No disrepect to your unit,) but someone higher up there is right the hell out of it, how in the heck can someone (figuratively) be one rank on a (unit) parade square, walk off the square / 'out the gate' as it were, and become another total different rank? ie from master jack to OCDT  ???

 

[exgunnertdo]

Promotion "on parade" unfortunately means nothing.  I have seen it happen (to me and a friend of mine) where the CO promoted us, "knowing" the paperwork was coming and then got bit.  Lucky for me, it got sorted before I had to take down a rank.  My friend, not so lucky, he was "promoted" on parade (to Lt), the CO thought equivalencies were coming based on training he did in the ranks.  When the paperwork came back denied, he had to take the rank down and do the training in order to get promoted.  Sucked, but it happened.

In your case, you are definately only one rank, Bdr, MBdr or OCdt.  You can't be two.  You're unit needs to sort this out (I know easier said than done).

BTW - by Ottawa, do you mean NDHQ or a Bde HQ?  Cause in my reserve experience most of this would be sorted out at Bde or Area level, not NDHQ.

Your logical next step to fix this is redress, and ask for a competant assisting officer to help be your advocate, since it sounds like the unit is trying to save it's butt.  Ombudsman can't help you until that point.

 

[Quag]

Sorry Mr. O'Leary, but I don't find it an inaccurate interpretation of rank structure at all.  Please clarify my thoughts.

 

[armyvern]

Sorry Mr. O'Leary, but I don't find it an inaccurate interpretation of rank structure at all.  Please clarify my thoughts.

There's already other threads running which serve to analyze/compare/interpret rank structure, rank responsibilites etc and Mr. O'Leary doesn't want to see this thread turn into another one of them.

For your clarity though, no-one is "promoted" from NCM to "Officer" as your post has insinuated. Your statement may lead those unknowing to believe that the next logical step after being promoted to CWO is to be promoted to OCdt. That's not the case as CWO is the highest rank one may achieve as a NCM.

Many NCMs certainly do take their comission though, and dependant upon their qualifications and experience...often bypass the first comissioned officer rank of "OCdt" so your statement is not accurate if you were to change the "promoted" in it to "Commissioned" either. It's just a minor technicality in your statement, but an imporatant one.

So now, can we please get this thread back on track?? This point can be debated in one of the many other threads already running regarding rank structure/ORs/and Comissioning or ranks & their responsibilities.

 

[mudgunner_07]

For me having to get an OT back to the ranks, that came from Ottawa. Right now the OT paperwork is completed and at Bde and I guess I am just waiting for them to schedule me an interview. I have been wearing the rank of Bomber, but I imagine if I am having to do an OT from the commissioned world to the ranks than I am an ocdt.

 

[Disenchantedsailor]

Indeed you may want to have your bty OR sort that out, the CC is probably the best resource there.

 

[I_am_John_Galt]

The word is "appointed" to Officer Cadet.

To be sure, an NCM who becomes an Officer must first be appointed to the rank of OCdt.  After that, the OCdt will receive their commission (when all of the pre-reqs. are complete), and an immediate promotion.  Interesting in your case, because the promotion is to 2Lt for Pte & Cpl, but to Lt for a Master Jack.

 

[armyvern]

And then there are those who are "Comissioned From the Ranks (CFRd)," who bypass those OCdt, 2Lt, and Lt ranks...to become Captains immediately. 

 

[I_am_John_Galt]

And then there are those who are "Comissioned From the Ranks (CFRd)," who bypass those OCdt, 2Lt, and Lt ranks...to become Captains immediately. 

Well, technically bioth CFR and SCP are appointed OCdt until they finish BOTC, unless they are a specialist officer MOC (i.e., Doctor, Dentist ...)