Anybody else feel we got ripped off on MHP deal?

[TangoTwoBravo]

Airforce SMEs,

Sorry to dredge up an old thread but I have some questions on the "Cyclone."  Some of the answers in the thread allude to it, but what is the estimated troop lift and slung-load capacity (if any) of the version that we are buying?  I've hit the wed looking but its pretty thin (just some nice pictures and vague specs).  I'm thinking on the JSS concept and I wanted to look at some of the basic assumptions.  What else could go on a JSS (that is in the realm of the possible)?  A slung load of 4500 kg for a short distance would be outstanding (I have some vehicles in mind), but I understand that this may not be feasible.

Thoughts?

2B

 

[Inch]

I have my doubts you'd be slinging 10,000 lbs, I'd say 6000-8000lbs would be more realistic.  I can't seem to find the technical requirements for the MHP on the internet, I know they're on the DIN so I'll have to look them up for you on Mon.  When Sikorsky briefed us in the fall I was under the impression that the Cyclones would not have ramps, though we had a briefing this morning that said they would have rear ramps, so I guess that remains to be seen. There's still talk about being able to roll off the consoles in about an hour, but I still have my doubts that that would work all that well since you're still going to have hardware like sonobuoy tubes and the sonar well that are hard mounted to the airframe. Then again, I'm not an engineer so that's only my opinion after seeing all the stuff in the back of the Sea King.

As for how many troops, the numbers I've heard are 22 troops.

For the JSS, you'd need a maritime helo with folding rotor and pylon since storage space is at a premium on a ship. The Cyclone could do the job, but we'd have to get more of them, the 28 we're getting will only be enough to outfit the fleets as well as a few for training and maintenance.

Here's a thread related to the subject.

http://army.ca/forums/threads/17798.0.html

 

[Cloud Cover]

.   When Sikorsky briefed us in the fall I was under the impression that the Cyclones would not have ramps, though we had a briefing this morning that said they would have rear ramps, so I guess that remains to be seen. There's still talk about being able to roll off the consoles in about an hour, but I still have my doubts that that would work all that well since you're still going to have hardware like sonobuoy tubes and the sonar well that are hard mounted to the airframe.

I don't know what i did with it, but I could have sworn last fall I sent you an e-mail right from the guy in charge of the subject of ramps etc. Did you keep it?

 

[Inch]

I don't know what i did with it, but I could have sworn last fall I sent you an e-mail right from the guy in charge of the subject of ramps etc. Did you keep it?

You did, I don't recall where it went. Did it say it would have a ramp? I've heard from Sikorsky that it won't and then today they said it would so I guess we'll find out in a couple years when the first one is built.

 

[Cloud Cover]

No ramp. Oversized side cargo door. Thats all i remember. Cheers.

 

[Inch]

Almost forgot, we saw a floor plan for the new Maritime Helicopter Training Centre, pretty slick I must say. 3 stories, 2 full motion sims, mockups for the techs, 6 briefing rooms, 2 flight planning rooms, and of course lockers for our flying gear among other rooms.  It'll be 406 Sqn and Wing Ops in the building and possibly HOTEF, 423 Sqn will be moved to a renovated D Hangar. The building will be classed as Secret, so basically security passes will be needed to go everywhere, including the washroom. They're supposed to start construction on it in the fall.

We're also getting a new O's mess and I think they're building a new hangar for 12 Air Maintenance Sqn.

The place is definitely going to look different when you get back here Sam.

No ramp. Oversized side cargo door. Thats all i remember. Cheers.

That's right, they told us this morning that it would have a ramp, they even had a cabin layout diagram for the helo, the GIBs will be at the back, in front of the ramp facing forward.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

That's right, they told us this morning that it would have a ramp, they even had a cabin layout diagram for the helo, the GIBs will be at the back, in front of the ramp facing forward.

Yeh, but do I get a window? 

 

[George Wallace]

Only if you are equivilant rank to a GS3 in the Public Service....  ;D

GW

 

[Inch]

Yeh, but do I get a window?  

There's no pleasing you guys is there?  ;D

They said there'd be a few windows/emergency exits but I wouldn't expect a bright and sunny work station. 

 

[Cloud Cover]

...  in front of the ramp facing forward.

LOL .. the ramp faces forward?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

There's no pleasing you guys is there?  

They said there'd be a few windows/emergency exits but I wouldn't expect a bright and sunny work station.  

Just for once I would like a workstation that I did not have to do gymnastics to egress from.

Facing forward while flying will be weird.   I'm so used to sitting sideways, I'll probably get airsick... :-X

 

[STONEY]

I see where the US have picked the EH101 to to replace the Presidents flight . Imagine getting 23 helo' s just to fly one man around. This buy suprised all the pundits since it is very rare the US military buys foreign kit especially such a visible item and in competition with Sikorsky's VH-92.  The EH-101 was said to have been picked because it was by far the superior a/c. Maybe spare parts will be easier to get after all as these a/c will be built by Bell  Textron in the US.

Other points to ponder. Army helo's of all shapes and sizes routinely operate from ships in other Navy's , without their pilots receiving any specialized training , since it is usually done from ship to shore in reasonable weather close to land.  There are several navy's in the world that operate ASW helo's equipped with skids not wheels, from  frigate sized ships ,granted not in the north atlantic in sea states we encounter but it can be done. The NH-90 which was in the running for MHP is now touted to be the front runner to replace troop lift Sea Kings in the Royal Navy. The NH-90 can lift 22 fully equiped troops & has a rear ramp and side doors in the utility version. The Aussies have also bought NH-90's similar to the German Army's version except with folding rotor bladesto operate as troop lift from their navy vessels & they will be flown by Army pilots. Are we being left behind by the rest of the world. Do you remember when Canada led the world in inovation . People thought we were crazy to operate a large helo from a frigate, but we did it and now everyone does it.  Well enough stirring for one post.

Ready , Aye Ready. 

 

[Inch]

I see where the US have picked the EH101 to to replace the Presidents flight . Imagine getting 23 helo' s just to fly one man around. This buy suprised all the pundits since it is very rare the US military buys foreign kit especially such a visible item and in competition with Sikorsky's VH-92.   The EH-101 was said to have been picked because it was by far the superior a/c. Maybe spare parts will be easier to get after all as these a/c will be built by Bell   Textron in the US.

Other points to ponder. Army helo's of all shapes and sizes routinely operate from ships in other Navy's , without their pilots receiving any specialized training , since it is usually done from ship to shore in reasonable weather close to land.   There are several navy's in the world that operate ASW helo's equipped with skids not wheels, from   frigate sized ships ,granted not in the north atlantic in sea states we encounter but it can be done. The NH-90 which was in the running for MHP is now touted to be the front runner to replace troop lift Sea Kings in the Royal Navy. The NH-90 can lift 22 fully equiped troops & has a rear ramp and side doors in the utility version. The Aussies have also bought NH-90's similar to the German Army's version except with folding rotor bladesto operate as troop lift from their navy vessels & they will be flown by Army pilots. Are we being left behind by the rest of the world. Do you remember when Canada led the world in inovation . People thought we were crazy to operate a large helo from a frigate, but we did it and now everyone does it.   Well enough stirring for one post.

Ready , Aye Ready.    

The 23 helos aren't just for Dubya, they're for all the White House staff including the the VP.

How exactly do you know that these army pilots don't have special training? I can't imagine landing on a rolling ship without any training. A pilot is a pilot, no matter what uniform he wears as long as he's trained to do the job, he can do it. I don't know why there's such a hang up about "army, navy or air force" pilots when we'd be doing the same job we are now except with a different uniform on.

How about some examples of these army helos with skids operating from ships. I can't seem to think of any. Royal Navy Lynx's have wheels as opposed to the army versions with skids and to my knowledge the army Lynx's don't operate from RN ships, Cougars have wheels as do Sea Hawks, NH90s, EH101s, H92s, Sea Sprites, etc. Suspension is a very nice thing to have when landing on a ship, not to mention the mobility that wheels offer you both embarked and ashore. Thanks, but you can keep your skids, I'll take wheels any day of the week.

Yes, NH90s are nice, but they didn't meet the requirements for the MHP, I believe cabin size and height were the limiting factors but I can't say for sure.

 

[Kirkhill]

Quote from: Inch on February 11, 2005, 22:48:12
...  in front of the ramp facing forward.


LOL .. the ramp faces forward?

I was wondering what the ride was like BEHIND the ramp. ;D

 

[Sam69]

How about some examples of these army helos with skids operating from ships. I can't seem to think of any. Royal Navy Lynx's have wheels as opposed to the army versions with skids and to my knowledge the army Lynx's don't operate from RN ships, Cougars have wheels as do Sea Hawks, NH90s, EH101s, H92s, Sea Sprites, etc. Suspension is a very nice thing to have when landing on a ship, not to mention the mobility that wheels offer you both embarked and ashore. Thanks, but you can keep your skids, I'll take wheels any day of the week.

As far as I can recall, I think the Italian AB-212s (ASW), the USMC Cobras (AH), and the USMC Twins (UH-1N?) are about the only military skid-equipped helos still operating from ships but I am sure that I am forgetting or missing something. We also used our 212s out of Vu-32 to fly-off the tankers a long time ago (pre-1990).

But I agree, skids are for the weeds not for the deck. Just because you can do something really should not be construed to mean that you should do something.

Sam

 

[Inch]

Thanks Sam, I do recall hearing about Vu-32 flying Twins off the tankers now that you mention it. I didn't think it was all that common, skids are too touchy on hard surfaces, the worst part about basic helo school was coming back and landing on the ramp, on the grass it was a lot easier.

 

[Sam69]

Here's a little bit of history, probably taken mid 80s (433 is still in the old grey):

You are right though Inch, I don't remember it having been very common and I seem to remember that the limits were 2 and 5 (pitch and roll) for recovery of the Twin.

Sam

 

[Sam69]

One more, the Italian AB-212 (ASW):

I seem to remember that it had a pretty restrictive deck envelope as well.

Sam

 

[STONEY]

Hey INCH no need to get your shorts in a knot i didn't mean to get you so excited. I think you misunderstood the whole point of my post.  Re the EH101 i was simply making the comparison that Canada bought 15 for the very important job of SAR while the US are buying 23 for VIP transport and it would be nice if we had gotten more airframes.

As to how i knew that the army pilots didn't have special training , they said so. In after action reports & lessons learned articles they said that most of them had no experience operation from naval ships and it would be advantagious to do so in future. I didn't mention rolling decks , i said they flew in good weather in sheltered waters close to land. Earlier in this thread people were discussing if the new Cyclone could carry many troops and it was stated it would be difficult to remove all the sensors to carry a big load , so i was just pointing out that if Canada in the future ever conducted any sort of amphib ops that we could in a pinch use army optimized helo's under certain circumstances as it had been done before. You'll get no argument from me that naval helo's with wheels are far superior for naval ops, and i certainly don't have any hang ups about army,navy or air force pilots as i have always thought they were interchangeable between elements after specialist training.

Some examples of helo's with skids operating from naval ships  AB212- operate in the Italian, Greek, Turkish, Spanish, Thai and venezuelian navy. The AS350 in Aussie & Brazilan navy.  AS555sn  in the Argie, Columbian, Brazilan & malaysian navy. The BO105 in the Mexican, Indonesian navy & Canadian Coast Guard. The OH58, 500MD, UH1, AH1 from US vessels to name a few. Once again my point was simply that army optimized helo's can if needed flown from naval ships, i also include army helo's with wheels. The RAF as you are aware even operate fighter bombers off container vessels & various naval platforms.

My point in mentioning the EH-90 was not that i thought it should have won the MHP competition but i thought people reading this thread might,  if they hadn't already heard , be interested that the Aussies & possibly the Brits were interested in this a/c in its trooplift/utility version. In light of statements recently by CDS i think we might be in the market for a a/c in this category such as Chinook, EH101, Cyclone or EH-90 the debate will begin again.

Salude. 

 

[Inch]

Ah, I see, my shorts weren't in a knot, just curious about what you based some of your statements on, point taken. Thanks for the info.

I agree that 15 for SAR isn't nearly enough considering we're the second largest country in the world. Did you know there's no SAR helos between Trenton and Comox? Pretty sad really, there's a TacHel Sqn in Edmonton and a Combat Support Sqn in Cold lake but that's about the extent of it.

I don't think there's a helo pilot out there that would argue about getting NH90s. I've never flown one but the specs I think speak for themselves. It's a sports car, very nimble and maneuverable. I'd love to see us get them, but the back end wasn't high enough for the SAR or MH role and I can't see us getting a 3rd airframe for the medium to heavy lift role.