AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[Rainbow1910]

They produced a good product. It's actually put on some serious miles doing the business of an AOR all over the globe, and kept up our RAS skills for years now.

Sure it's expensive, but you can't deny it's been a busy a hull. I would say the juice is worth the squeeze. And that's more than I can say for another company that produces us ships.

If I ran the company that made her I would pump those tires as well.

My only gripe is we should have bought her and the second. And the reason we didn't do either is because the LPC would have none of it, it was purely political. Just ask Norm.

Yes Asterix has done a lot of good work however, my point of calling it "nothing special" was regarding another commentator above waxing poetic about how Davie "did something that no others did, thought to do, or were able to do". The reality of the situation is that Davie took a commercial hull and converted it to act as an interim gas carrier for the RCN. There is no special sauce here, Seaspan, Irving or any other vaguely competent shipyard with the space available could have pulled off the same project with the same or better results. I am fairly sure Irving actually considered doing the same thing with a converted tanker in their proposal however, they pivoted towards they strange hybrid RO-RO tanker concept that eventually fell through. I think part of this whole thing was giving Davie some table scraps of work, considering where they are located and how they had just managed to claw themselves out of the pit of debt and insolvency made for themselves previously.

I personally don't think the juice is worth the squeeze, especially considering this juice comes with a premium annual subscription model to keep it fresh. People love to throw shade at Irving and Seaspan (to a lesser degree) but Davie gets to slide along largely on goodwill from Asterix. Irving and Seaspan definitely deserve their fair share of criticism however, both of those yards are building entire ships from the ground up while Davie has built its reputation as the Canadian Shipbuilding darling off converting a single civilian tanker and some Coast Guard icebreakers purchased from abroad. I will be far more supportive of Davie if they can show that all of this talk translates to action once they actually start building vessels instead of just converting them.

If the RCN had purchased Asterix outright and not bought into the FFS contract system, I think the financial situation surrounding the vessel would be easier to swallow. This is especially true if we would have got a competitive price for it, as unlikely as that would have been. It is a bit of a kludge vessel that is ill suited to being deployed anywhere near a combat zone and lacks many of the features that JSS will have however, I think the baseline capability would have been valuable. Davie wanted $724M to sell Asterix to the RCN upon entry into service in 2018 when they apparently purchased the original vessel for $20M. Considering it took them from 2015-Fall 2018 to bring the ship from start of conversion to service acceptance, I think the option for purchasing a proper "long term" interim design from abroad would have been better considering the pressing requirements at hand.

The RCN would have been left with a purpose built design that they owned from the start instead of the option to purchase a converted civilian vessel for a substantial markup, after it had been rode hard across the world for a decade or more while we payed for it. Considering the costs at hand to do another one of these situations without serious restructuring of contract prices and agreements, the proposed "Obelix" really doesn't sound like a great strategy to me.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Yes Asterix has done a lot of good work however, my point of calling it "nothing special" was regarding another commentator above waxing poetic about how Davie "did something that no others did, thought to do, or were able to do". The reality of the situation is that Davie took a commercial hull and converted it to act as an interim gas carrier for the RCN. There is no special sauce here, Seaspan, Irving or any other vaguely competent shipyard with the space available could have pulled off the same project with the same or better results. I am fairly sure Irving actually considered doing the same thing with a converted tanker in their proposal however, they pivoted towards they strange hybrid RO-RO tanker concept that eventually fell through. I think part of this whole thing was giving Davie some table scraps of work, considering where they are located and how they had just managed to claw themselves out of the pit of debt and insolvency made for themselves previously.

"Anyone could have done this" so why didn't they ? This whole quote is akin to sulking and kicking rocks because some other kid won a game of marbles against you.

But hey at least you gave her credit for doing yeoman's work as our sole oiler, I'll take that.

I personally don't think the juice is worth the squeeze, especially considering this juice comes with a premium annual subscription model to keep it fresh. People love to throw shade at Irving and Seaspan (to a lesser degree) but Davie gets to slide along largely on goodwill from Asterix. Irving and Seaspan definitely deserve their fair share of criticism however, both of those yards are building entire ships from the ground up while Davie has built its reputation as the Canadian Shipbuilding darling off converting a single civilian tanker and some Coast Guard icebreakers purchased from abroad. I will be far more supportive of Davie if they can show that all of this talk translates to action once they actually start building vessels instead of just converting them.

I don't know Seaspan, and I haven't dealt with their product. But I have experience first hand the "poor craftsmanship" that is continually produced by Irving. I have reactivated more than my share of HMC Ships that have gone through docking periods at ISI, I've destored ships when we have to lock every space and take every piece of brass and material because the mateys at ISI will steal everything. I've been on ships where ISI cut wires and installed valves wrong that lead to serious deficiencies and DC scenarios.

I worked at Irving and watched how they treated their people.

My bias against Irving is learned and from experience; and I will admit it.

If the RCN had purchased Asterix outright and not bought into the FFS contract system, I think the financial situation surrounding the vessel would be easier to swallow. This is especially true if we would have got a competitive price for it, as unlikely as that would have been. It is a bit of a kludge vessel that is ill suited to being deployed anywhere near a combat zone and lacks many of the features that JSS will have however, I think the baseline capability would have been valuable. Davie wanted $724M to sell Asterix to the RCN upon entry into service in 2018 when they apparently purchased the original vessel for $20M. Considering it took them from 2015-Fall 2018 to bring the ship from start of conversion to service acceptance, I think the option for purchasing a proper "long term" interim design from abroad would have been better considering the pressing requirements at hand.

We should have purchased 2 x Asterix class EA.

Tankers shouldn't be at the FEBA nor should they be alone, the employment of tankers as lone "Battle Tankers" is a Canadian concept ala Op Apollo.

The RCN would have been left with a purpose built design that they owned from the start instead of the option to purchase a converted civilian vessel for a substantial markup, after it had been rode hard across the world for a decade or more while we payed for it. Considering the costs at hand to do another one of these situations without serious restructuring of contract prices and agreements, the proposed "Obelix" really doesn't sound like a great strategy to me.

Ok.

 

[OldSolduer]

We should have purchased 2 x Asterix class EA.

Tankers shouldn't be at the FEBA nor should they be alone, the employment of tankers as lone "Battle Tankers" is a Canadian concept ala Op Apollo.

Even a landlubber like me knows that. Are you saying they expose this vessel to enemy fire?

 

[Underway]

Are you saying they expose this vessel to enemy fire?

No. During Op Apollo there was no threat to naval forces thus if the opportunity presented itself the tanker with its large boats and crew could do boarding of suspicious vessels. It was completely safe to sail on its own. Battletanker or Wartanker is a tounge in cheek nickname.

The main difference in RCN doctrine over say USN or RN doctrine for tankers is due to our destroyer navy focus. With carrier task groups it makes complete sense to have dedicated oilers that only refuel and dedicated colliers that only ammo or move food. With a destroyer navy because you're more likely to sail into contested waters instead of sending strike packages there your AOR needs to be a bit more multifunctional (fuel, ammo and food).

The other thing is that the AOR has space for a proper ops room, sensors, CMS and comms to take a TG Command and be the flagship if necessary.

The other doctrinal touchstone is that the AOR will likely be in contested waters in a near peer conflict all the time anyways (submarines are everywhere, missiles have huge ranges etc...) so instead of just being a target, RCN AORs can contribute to battle space awareness and command control of the TG. If the safest place to be is nestled in the TG, they should help contribute to its defence.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

During Gulf War 1, it completely blew the USN’s mind that we had a tanker with it’s own patrol box as far forward as we did. Armed better than some of the frigates that showed up in theatre…

 

[Kirkhill]

Yes Asterix has done a lot of good work however, my point of calling it "nothing special" was regarding another commentator above waxing poetic about how Davie "did something that no others did, thought to do, or were able to do". The reality of the situation is that Davie took a commercial hull and converted it to act as an interim gas carrier for the RCN. There is no special sauce here, Seaspan, Irving or any other vaguely competent shipyard with the space available could have pulled off the same project with the same or better results. I am fairly sure Irving actually considered doing the same thing with a converted tanker in their proposal however, they pivoted towards they strange hybrid RO-RO tanker concept that eventually fell through. I think part of this whole thing was giving Davie some table scraps of work, considering where they are located and how they had just managed to claw themselves out of the pit of debt and insolvency made for themselves previously.

I personally don't think the juice is worth the squeeze, especially considering this juice comes with a premium annual subscription model to keep it fresh. People love to throw shade at Irving and Seaspan (to a lesser degree) but Davie gets to slide along largely on goodwill from Asterix. Irving and Seaspan definitely deserve their fair share of criticism however, both of those yards are building entire ships from the ground up while Davie has built its reputation as the Canadian Shipbuilding darling off converting a single civilian tanker and some Coast Guard icebreakers purchased from abroad. I will be far more supportive of Davie if they can show that all of this talk translates to action once they actually start building vessels instead of just converting them.

If the RCN had purchased Asterix outright and not bought into the FFS contract system, I think the financial situation surrounding the vessel would be easier to swallow. This is especially true if we would have got a competitive price for it, as unlikely as that would have been. It is a bit of a kludge vessel that is ill suited to being deployed anywhere near a combat zone and lacks many of the features that JSS will have however, I think the baseline capability would have been valuable. Davie wanted $724M to sell Asterix to the RCN upon entry into service in 2018 when they apparently purchased the original vessel for $20M. Considering it took them from 2015-Fall 2018 to bring the ship from start of conversion to service acceptance, I think the option for purchasing a proper "long term" interim design from abroad would have been better considering the pressing requirements at hand.

The RCN would have been left with a purpose built design that they owned from the start instead of the option to purchase a converted civilian vessel for a substantial markup, after it had been rode hard across the world for a decade or more while we payed for it. Considering the costs at hand to do another one of these situations without serious restructuring of contract prices and agreements, the proposed "Obelix" really doesn't sound like a great strategy to me.

I like "nothing special".

I wish we would buy a lot more "nothing specials".

 

[Rainbow1910]

I like "nothing special".

I wish we would buy a lot more "nothing specials".

If "nothing special" came with a "nothing special" price, I would be 100% in agreement.

"Anyone could have done this" so why didn't they ? This whole quote is akin to sulking and kicking rocks because some other kid won a game of marbles against you.

But hey at least you gave her credit for doing yeoman's work as our sole oiler, I'll take that.

If you want to take my quote as "sulking and kicking rocks", feel free however, that is not my goal here. I'm pushing back against this nonsensical notion that the Asterix was some kind of unique project that only Davie in their infinite skill and wisdom could have pulled off. Davie is just another Canadian shipbuilder like all the rest, and I am treating them as such until they can actually prove otherwise. As far as I am concerned, they do not deserve this reputation that they have managed to cultivate for themselves on their very small resume as of late.

 

[Kirkhill]

If "nothing special" came with a "nothing special" price, I would be 100% in agreement.

That's a stipulation. I would love to find out what is possible using the least cost, off the shelf solution. Observable gaps could then be managed based on solid evidence.

If you want to take my quote as "sulking and kicking rocks", feel free however, that is not my goal here. I'm pushing back against this nonsensical notion that the Asterix was some kind of unique project that only Davie in their infinite skill and wisdom could have pulled off. Davie is just another Canadian shipbuilder like all the rest, and I am treating them as such until they can actually prove otherwise. As far as I am concerned, they do not deserve this reputation that they have managed to cultivate for themselves on their very small resume as of late.

 

[Stoker]

If "nothing special" came with a "nothing special" price, I would be 100% in agreement.


If you want to take my quote as "sulking and kicking rocks", feel free however, that is not my goal here. I'm pushing back against this nonsensical notion that the Asterix was some kind of unique project that only Davie in their infinite skill and wisdom could have pulled off. Davie is just another Canadian shipbuilder like all the rest, and I am treating them as such until they can actually prove otherwise. As far as I am concerned, they do not deserve this reputation that they have managed to cultivate for themselves on their very small resume as of late.

Didn't Davie have a substantial piece of the ship actually built in Finland? Did Davie have all kinds of issues converting those two icebreakers for the CCG? Didn't we have to actually steal several ships years ago from Davie?

I guess my point is that they shouldn't be throwing stones in glass houses. Great we got a AOR when we really needed it, it has its issues and we're paying through the nose for it. If all goes well in a few years we'll either divest ourselves of the ship or buy it and keep it out of harms way.

 

[NavyShooter]

The yards we 'stole' the steamers back from was up in Port Welland I think.

The words I use in describing the work I've seen with my own eyes from ISI include:

• willful deliberate sabotage
• incompetence
• thievery
• stupidity
• laziness

Having to lock unoccupied compartments so that ISI workers don't go hide in them to have a nap...having to replace fiber-optic cable runs that were deliberately cut and tucked back in the wireways for the AHWCS...having to replace 2 ships worth of fire hoses when the end connectors were cut off on almost every hose so that they could be stolen, presumably for the scrap brass value....having to dig out pre-refit imagery of compartments to show brass fittings to ISI staff that were present when the ship was handed over...and gone when refit was complete...forcing them to search for and find the missing parts (which were NOT removed as part of the work package.) Having the forward blackwater system on not one, but 2 ships plugged in exactly the same place, in exactly the same method...FRE and MON in 2013. The CERA's helped each other out figuring that one out to find the welding rods hammered into the pipe and then sealed shut. Having the PA system over 95% repaired a week prior to the ship leaving the ditch...then coming back on Monday and finding that less than 30% of it was still working...cables cut, speakers smashed, cabling yanked out of speaker boxes...because someone got mad that SS were prepping the ship for "safe alongside" requirements whilst she was still in ISI hands. How about failing to properly preserve/protect a C5 in the winter and letting it freeze? The number of dead SETs as a result of that was practically criminal, and took months to fix after we failed SPFs.

The list goes on, and on, and this is all stuff I've seen with my own eyes. I was headhunted a few years ago and offered a position when the CSC project staff were expanding to a core of 85 people. I sat down with the Exec that tracked me down and gave him a blast of all of the above and left the meeting with the statement "I have too much pride in myself to see my name on the same business card as the word IRVING."

Yeah, Davie plays up their "THIS IS AWESOME" card now and then, and compared to not having any tanker capability, is sure is awesome. Is it the greatest thing since sliced bread? Nope. But compare it to having a nearly decade long gap in capability, training, and experience, and you have to say it looks pretty good.

Truly, I wish our shipyards would do better. It tears me up to see 10 million dollars worth of CNC multi-axis machines sitting idle 90% of the time in FMF - how many 155mm shells could those produce in a month if they had the programs and the forgings? How many 57mm BLP rounds could they hammer out? They were procured to build submarine bolts, which they apparently do very well. But they sit idle so often.

There's good people in all these organizations, but there's rot to the core in more than one, and holding any of them up on a pillar is wrong.

 

[Czech_pivo]

If "nothing special" came with a "nothing special" price, I would be 100% in agreement.


If you want to take my quote as "sulking and kicking rocks", feel free however, that is not my goal here. I'm pushing back against this nonsensical notion that the Asterix was some kind of unique project that only Davie in their infinite skill and wisdom could have pulled off. Davie is just another Canadian shipbuilder like all the rest, and I am treating them as such until they can actually prove otherwise. As far as I am concerned, they do not deserve this reputation that they have managed to cultivate for themselves on their very small resume as of late.

Davie is being faulted because they have a superior PR firm compared to the other CDN shipbuilders.

If Irving hired the same firm that Davie uses and started churning out the same sort of positive feelings, the same sort of ability to effectively get their msg across to John Q Public, would there be as much hate on for Irving?

The job of all companies in our current capitalist society is to self promote themselves - those that effectively do so tend to survive and thrive - those that don't tend to whither on the vine and hopefully either change Sr Management to improve their imagine or go out of business (or survive on government largesse....).

 

[Czech_pivo]

The yards we 'stole' the steamers back from was up in Port Welland I think.

The words I use in describing the work I've seen with my own eyes from ISI include:

• willful deliberate sabotage
• incompetence
• thievery
• stupidity
• laziness

Having to lock unoccupied compartments so that ISI workers don't go hide in them to have a nap...having to replace fiber-optic cable runs that were deliberately cut and tucked back in the wireways for the AHWCS...having to replace 2 ships worth of fire hoses when the end connectors were cut off on almost every hose so that they could be stolen, presumably for the scrap brass value....having to dig out pre-refit imagery of compartments to show brass fittings to ISI staff that were present when the ship was handed over...and gone when refit was complete...forcing them to search for and find the missing parts (which were NOT removed as part of the work package.) Having the forward blackwater system on not one, but 2 ships plugged in exactly the same place, in exactly the same method...FRE and MON in 2013. The CERA's helped each other out figuring that one out to find the welding rods hammered into the pipe and then sealed shut. Having the PA system over 95% repaired a week prior to the ship leaving the ditch...then coming back on Monday and finding that less than 30% of it was still working...cables cut, speakers smashed, cabling yanked out of speaker boxes...because someone got mad that SS were prepping the ship for "safe alongside" requirements whilst she was still in ISI hands. How about failing to properly preserve/protect a C5 in the winter and letting it freeze? The number of dead SETs as a result of that was practically criminal, and took months to fix after we failed SPFs.

The list goes on, and on, and this is all stuff I've seen with my own eyes. I was headhunted a few years ago and offered a position when the CSC project staff were expanding to a core of 85 people. I sat down with the Exec that tracked me down and gave him a blast of all of the above and left the meeting with the statement "I have too much pride in myself to see my name on the same business card as the word IRVING."

Yeah, Davie plays up their "THIS IS AWESOME" card now and then, and compared to not having any tanker capability, is sure is awesome. Is it the greatest thing since sliced bread? Nope. But compare it to having a nearly decade long gap in capability, training, and experience, and you have to say it looks pretty good.

Truly, I wish our shipyards would do better. It tears me up to see 10 million dollars worth of CNC multi-axis machines sitting idle 90% of the time in FMF - how many 155mm shells could those produce in a month if they had the programs and the forgings? How many 57mm BLP rounds could they hammer out? They were procured to build submarine bolts, which they apparently do very well. But they sit idle so often.

There's good people in all these organizations, but there's rot to the core in more than one, and holding any of them up on a pillar is wrong.

Kind of reminds me of the time back in 1989 when I was a University in Windsor working as a 'TPT' (Temporary Part-Time) worker for Chrysler on the 'Trim line' at Plant 3 making the Chrysler mini-van. I had to be part of the CAW and was paid 85% of the wages of a FT Union worker until I had a minimum of 90 work days under my belt.

As a 19yr old kid I saw so many eye-opening things working in that environment. There were basically 2 groups of people, those around my fathers age who had kids that I personally knew or knew of. The vast majority of these guys were extremely hardworking and quality focused and took ALOT of pride in what they built daily. The second group were those about 7-10yrs older than me. The vast majority of them were the exact oppositive of the first group - little pride in their work, slackers, a certain percentage were drug users (smoked pot on the job in the bathrooms), hungover, willfully destroyed company property and would do as little as possible work use when they could.

I saw firsthand one of these guys knock-out his Line Foreman on the plant floor because he had been called out a bunch of times during one shift for crappy work installing the back passenger side window on the mini-vans. The knocking out of the Line Forman resulted in the entire line being shut down for roughly an hour (at 65 mini-vans churned out an hour it was a significant cost). An ambulance was called. The worker was sent home for the rest of the day with pay. The Union was able to ensure no charges were laid against him, he was enrolled in some 'angry mgmt' classes (fully paid for by the company and him getting paid to attend) and him being transferred to another line in the plant - nothing else happened to him.

Another time I was working with a guy as a team installing the 'fire prevention' mat against the inside of the driver/passenger flooring. The mat would be installed between the steering wheel columns and this guy would 'bend' the column on his side so that we couldn't install the mat and we'd just drop the mat into the body and put a red 'S' sticker on the column so someone else would fix it. He would do this about 4-6 times an hour....

Last story was the sheer number of guys coming back from lunch stoned from smoking pot and watching them start building mini-vans that in turn a local Windsor family would be buying to possibly bring their new born baby home from the hospital - I knew right then and there that I'd never be a buying of a Chrysler mini-van.....

 

[Stoker]

The yards we 'stole' the steamers back from was up in Port Welland I think.

The words I use in describing the work I've seen with my own eyes from ISI include:

• willful deliberate sabotage
• incompetence
• thievery
• stupidity
• laziness

Having to lock unoccupied compartments so that ISI workers don't go hide in them to have a nap...having to replace fiber-optic cable runs that were deliberately cut and tucked back in the wireways for the AHWCS...having to replace 2 ships worth of fire hoses when the end connectors were cut off on almost every hose so that they could be stolen, presumably for the scrap brass value....having to dig out pre-refit imagery of compartments to show brass fittings to ISI staff that were present when the ship was handed over...and gone when refit was complete...forcing them to search for and find the missing parts (which were NOT removed as part of the work package.) Having the forward blackwater system on not one, but 2 ships plugged in exactly the same place, in exactly the same method...FRE and MON in 2013. The CERA's helped each other out figuring that one out to find the welding rods hammered into the pipe and then sealed shut. Having the PA system over 95% repaired a week prior to the ship leaving the ditch...then coming back on Monday and finding that less than 30% of it was still working...cables cut, speakers smashed, cabling yanked out of speaker boxes...because someone got mad that SS were prepping the ship for "safe alongside" requirements whilst she was still in ISI hands. How about failing to properly preserve/protect a C5 in the winter and letting it freeze? The number of dead SETs as a result of that was practically criminal, and took months to fix after we failed SPFs.

The list goes on, and on, and this is all stuff I've seen with my own eyes. I was headhunted a few years ago and offered a position when the CSC project staff were expanding to a core of 85 people. I sat down with the Exec that tracked me down and gave him a blast of all of the above and left the meeting with the statement "I have too much pride in myself to see my name on the same business card as the word IRVING."

Yeah, Davie plays up their "THIS IS AWESOME" card now and then, and compared to not having any tanker capability, is sure is awesome. Is it the greatest thing since sliced bread? Nope. But compare it to having a nearly decade long gap in capability, training, and experience, and you have to say it looks pretty good.

Truly, I wish our shipyards would do better. It tears me up to see 10 million dollars worth of CNC multi-axis machines sitting idle 90% of the time in FMF - how many 155mm shells could those produce in a month if they had the programs and the forgings? How many 57mm BLP rounds could they hammer out? They were procured to build submarine bolts, which they apparently do very well. But they sit idle so often.

There's good people in all these organizations, but there's rot to the core in more than one, and holding any of them up on a pillar is wrong.

No there was several incidents of it and one was MIL Davie. Now of course that was a very different company but as Davie likes to boost about their storied history. Yep I think we all know what you think of ISI as you say it alot how bad they are and really this is not even about ISI as they didn't build the tankers. I could say the same about FMF and I have lots of stories about them as well. Point is most shipyards have issues and less than honest workers. When Asterix came from Davie the first time and went to sea and trialed the RAS gear during dry hookups, all the RAS gear literally fell apart and was stuffed with garbage. Apparently a elevator cables were cut by the shipyard, a parting gift because Davie cut the workforce. I have no issue Davie blowing their horn when warranted however they are constantly at it and probably a reason why they were reluctantly brought on as the 3rd NSS shipyard.

 

[Stoker]

Davie is being faulted because they have a superior PR firm compared to the other CDN shipbuilders.

If Irving hired the same firm that Davie uses and started churning out the same sort of positive feelings, the same sort of ability to effectively get their msg across to John Q Public, would there be as much hate on for Irving?

The job of all companies in our current capitalist society is to self promote themselves - those that effectively do so tend to survive and thrive - those that don't tend to whither on the vine and hopefully either change Sr Management to improve their imagine or go out of business (or survive on government largesse....).

If by "faulted" meaning a steam of unsolicited bids, Davie and Federal Fleets press releases and a steady diet of boosts that the ship is better than the JSS....properly the reason why they did get the 3rd shipyard status for many years.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Didn't Davie have a substantial piece of the ship actually built in Finland? Did Davie have all kinds of issues converting those two icebreakers for the CCG? Didn't we have to actually steal several ships years ago from Davie?

I guess my point is that they shouldn't be throwing stones in glass houses. Great we got a AOR when we really needed it, it has its issues and we're paying through the nose for it. If all goes well in a few years we'll either divest ourselves of the ship or buy it and keep it out of harms way.

All of the superstructure above the main deck

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I don't know where that visceral hatred of Davie comes from, but lets answer a few of the questions with the actual facts:

Didn't Davie have a substantial piece of the ship actually built in Finland?

Yes. They had the superstructure built by a Finish shipyard specializing in cruise ships accommodations. Why? Because they actually acquired that technology and the right to be the one yard in Canada doing such work under license. The superstructure of Asterix was built in Finland, with a large contingent of Davie workers who were there to learn the technology and how to do the work, while the shop for such work was being built in Levis. Today, it would be done at Davie's own shipyard. Acquiring modern shipbuilding technology and know-how is actually one of the aims of the NSS. Yet Davie did this on its own before even knowing that they would become the third NSS shipyard. That part of the work, BTW, was about 20% of the overall cost.

Did Davie have all kinds of issues converting those two icebreakers for the CCG?

No. The Coast Guard had issues with some of the conversion they wanted for which they changed their mind mid-way through the refits, which were still completed on time and on budget.

Didn't we have to actually steal several ships years ago from Davie?

No. No warships or Coast Guard ships have ever had to be stolen from Davie. In the history of the RCN/Maritime Command/RCN again, only two ships have ever been "stolen" by the Navy: GTS Katie, a merchant ship we boarded and seized to retrieve the Canadian Army equipment onboard - because someone thought it was a good idea to ship back to Canada's most of the Army's heavy equipment on an ex-soviet heavy transport ship at a time when the Russian economy was bad and companies were folding left right and center. And, HMCS ATHABASKAN, "stolen in December 2012 from Seaway Marine and Industrial Limited (previously Port Weller Dry Dock) because, after eight months of a six months refit, they were nowhere near completing it and the Navy did not want the ship stuck in the Great Lakes until spring when the seaway would re-open.

 

[dapaterson]

GTS Katie was an issue with sub sub contractors not being paid by sketchy contractors, which is a not uncommon issue in international shipping.

 

[Stoker]

I don't know where that visceral hatred of Davie comes from, but lets answer a few of the questions with the actual facts:



Yes. They had the superstructure built by a Finish shipyard specializing in cruise ships accommodations. Why? Because they actually acquired that technology and the right to be the one yard in Canada doing such work under license. The superstructure of Asterix was built in Finland, with a large contingent of Davie workers who were there to learn the technology and how to do the work, while the shop for such work was being built in Levis. Today, it would be done at Davie's own shipyard. Acquiring modern shipbuilding technology and know-how is actually one of the aims of the NSS. Yet Davie did this on its own before even knowing that they would become the third NSS shipyard. That part of the work, BTW, was about 20% of the overall cost.



No. The Coast Guard had issues with some of the conversion they wanted for which they changed their mind mid-way through the refits, which were still completed on time and on budget.




No. No warships or Coast Guard ships have ever had to be stolen from Davie. In the history of the RCN/Maritime Command/RCN again, only two ships have ever been "stolen" by the Navy: GTS Katie, a merchant ship we boarded and seized to retrieve the Canadian Army equipment onboard - because someone thought it was a good idea to ship back to Canada's most of the Army's heavy equipment on an ex-soviet heavy transport ship at a time when the Russian economy was bad and companies were folding left right and center. And, HMCS ATHABASKAN, "stolen in December 2012 from Seaway Marine and Industrial Limited (previously Port Weller Dry Dock) because, after eight months of a six months refit, they were nowhere near completing it and the Navy did not want the ship stuck in the Great Lakes until spring when the seaway would re-open.

Facts according to you eh?

Point is that they did it to meet the delivery timeline and that was their driving factor. You're telling me that they couldn't build a regular superstructure in Canada regardless of the cruise ship technology? If it was under the NSS it wouldn't be allowed.

Quebec shipyard late delivering Coast Guard icebreakers after pushing federal government on purchase

Ottawa agreed to purchase the three used civilian ships at a cost of at least $827M in August 2018 after Trudeau surprised many by personally announcing negotiations

nationalpost.com

Of course we had to forcibly take ships back out of refit as the yards and unions played games with refits all the time. One yard in Quebec cut a hole in the ship so we couldn't take it back. The Margaree was stolen with tugs in the middle of the night out of Sorel and Protecteur was taken out of Lauzon in 79. because of union shenanigan's. Just because you never head about it, it never happened. Of course this was years ago, but Davie has always made a point on celebrating their history.

 

[dapaterson]

All those issues sound like the RCN failed to provide professional supervision of the refits and repairs.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Twist things you don't know, as usual.

I served in PROTECTEUR in 1980: She hadn't been in refit for four years and was going in refit the next year. So, no, she wasn't in refit in 1979.

As for MARGAREE, she was in refit in MONTREAL, at Vickers, and was towed to Halifax as a mutually agreed move with the navy so she wouldn't be stuck in the ice bound St Lawrence system in winter. That is not "stealing" a ship, which is what you mentioned was done many times before.

As for the superstructure thing for Asterix, keep not reading what I write: It confirms the opening statement of my post above.

I gave you the only two instances of "forcible" taking of ships by the RCN. If you can prove with actual evidence other than your word, of any other "forcible" taking, I am all ears. Agreeing to change a ship's location in mid refit is not "forcible".