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Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS

MarkOttawa said:
Mr Wilson doesn't know what he's talking about.  Other than Hans Island there is no claim to, or territorial dispute over, any of our Arctic land.  So most of what he's writing about is completely irrelevant to "Arctic sovereignty" which is only in question with respect to waterways.  

I think he is refering to the is recent challenge here:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=464921
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=41c21a5a-d645-4108-b5ce-2df30551470e&k=15448

Now, I couldnt find it on the net, but the original news story showed the Russian arctic claim reaching into Canada's northern islands based on continental shelf projections.  Nearly every map Ive seen since then has different claim areas.  Its uncertain at this time just how much land the Russians are attempting to lay claim to.
 
New article today:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/589c552e-45eb-11dc-b359-0000779fd2ac.html
 
This makes sense to me--and then the patrol ships could be redesigned to be much more capable vessels, to replace or supplement the MCDVs, without a serious icebreaking capability

New Coast Guard ships would best fit our Arctic ambitions
http://thechronicleherald.ca/print_article.html?story=852819

While the prospect of armed troops in the Arctic and associated infrastructure are commendable initiatives, I believe there are other more creative, cost-effective, supportive methods of providing better service, in less time, with greater benefits to the Inuit community and the current and future development of the Canadian Arctic.

In an era when the country needs a strong Canadian Coast Guard to support domestic responsibilities in its waterways, the CCG is being diminished and reduced on an almost daily basis. I believe that a more realistic approach would allow our new government to provide a much more cost- and mission-effective solution to this age-old problem of Arctic sovereignty.

Some suggestions, based upon years of experience with the CCG, would be:

• Assign the responsibility for building and operating the Canadian Arctic sovereignty icebreakers to the civilian marine arm of the federal government, the Canadian Coast Guard, which has been designing icebreakers and operating in the Arctic environment since it was formed (1962) and prior to that through the Marine Services directorate of Transport Canada. The CCG and its personnel have earned the respect of Northerners over the years and the experience of its personnel in this unique operating environment is unmatched by any other organization in the world.

• Acquire three multi-mission heavy icebreakers capable of operating in the Arctic on a year-round basis (not for a few months of the year, as with the proposed medium-capable icebreakers). These vessels need to be the best in the world and capable of delivering a suite of federal and territorial programs and services in the area they are designed to operate in. Such vessel designs are currently available and could be purchased and/or leased and in service in less than five years at a cost considerably below the original estimate of $1 billion apiece.

• Primary missions would include, but not be limited to: search and rescue; Arctic science; hydrography; oceanography; fisheries management and protection; law enforcement; maritime security; pollution response (federal responsibility north of 60 degrees north); icebreaking, ice reconnaissance and monitoring, particularly in light of global warming; ice escort, harbour breakouts; remote community support, supporting Arctic economic development; in addition to Arctic sovereignty.

• Operation and management of these vessels would need to be done in partnership with the Inuit community, as well as the Armed Forces, to ensure the concerns of Northerners, who have exclusive rights to these lands through their land-claims agreements, are addressed.

• Such vessels, although much more capable than the ones proposed by the government, would have smaller crews and have the ability to accommodate appropriate mission-specific personnel (i.e. scientists, pollution response specialists, RCMP, Armed Forces, etc.)

• The design of these icebreakers is such that they can often conduct several missions at once and thus achieve a much greater return on our investment and operating costs.

The support to economic and social development is one that is much deserved by our Inuit community. Given the remoteness of the communities, size of their territories, and the difficult environment, they deserve the support of the federal government in a manner that makes sense. While they do not have access to a national highway (Trans-Canada) or railway system, the marine and air modes of transportation are their only connections and, in most cases, airports are not options. Despite their reliance on marine transportation in their everyday life (fishing and hunting), they do not get the same level of support as their southern colleagues because of their remote location and comparatively small numbers. A federal icebreaker with an IFR helicopter can provide much needed support quickly, in addition to extending the reach and range of Canadian sovereignty.

New Arctic-class icebreakers would also allow the CCG to rationalize its icebreaking capability in a cost-effective manner by concentrating on less expensive southern icebreakers for southern operations, deployed to the Arctic on a seasonal basis, and avoid the acquisition/replacement cost of one or more major icebreakers...

Rod Stright is a former director of operations with the Canadian Coast Guard and has more than 30 years experience with the CCG.

Mark
Ottawa
 
I think it remains an absolutely insane place to invest scarce $ as long as the Coast Guard demands to continue to remain an unarmed service. 

Sovereignty isn't only being there....it's demonstrating an ability to defend said area.  Spending $600 million on an unarmed unionized vessel versus $1 billion on an armed military vessel is apples & oranges in terms of your ROI. 

In case no one else has noticed, the Russians are really ratcheting things up with their long-range bomber flights and all indications are they are only going to get more, rather than less aggressive in coming years.  To plan on things remaining as per status quo has never been wise.  The trend unfortunately is for increased tension and as such putting unarmed vessels into that environment (if the union drivers will even agree to go which sadly is something that needs to be considered if tension levels do ramp up) borders upon negligence.


Matthew.    ???
 
Agree Matthew(lol thats a wierd occurence :D )Personally I think if a ship will be used in the law enforcement role or perform any naval mission it should be armed. The CCG should drop any sort of enforcement from their mandate totally.
 
I too have to agree completely with Matthew.  At a time when Russia is ratcheting up tensions, in the Arctic and elsewhere, an unarmed icebreaker would be  unrealistic and inadequate for defending Canada's arctic sovereignty.  As far as i'm concerned as long as the Coast Guard refuses to take up a more aggressive mandate then guarding Canada's arctic should rest squarely with the navy.

I should also point out that a few months ago I started a thread expressing my concerns that the war in Afghanistan, as completely justified as it is, seemed to giving some of our leaders tunnel vision and our navy was being neglected.  Let's hope the very loud and threatening growls being made by the Russian bear will be a wake up call to them.

Also while the new Arctic/Offshore patrol ships and FELEX program for the Canadian Navy are welcome news, much more needs to be done if Canada is to have a credible naval deterrent to any designs the Russians and others have on her arctic territory.  I argued in another recent thread that it takes too long for new ships to be brought to the fleet.  I see no good reason why Canada couldn't be at the same stage of progress as Australia right now when it comes to acquiring a next generation frigate/destroyer.  In fact it would have made sense for Canada to cooperate with the Aussies on their AAW destroyer (each party of course tailoring a ship to meet their unique needs), this would give the Canadian Navy a capability it needs (and which it needs now more than ever) much sooner at much less cost, we still have too long a wait for the SCSC to become a reality (if it isn't axed before that happens). 

Canada also needs a credible submarine deterrent.  I'm not talking about nuclear subs here, as we all know a good diesel boat is a significant threat to even the most powerful destroyer, cruiser or aircraft carrier.  In the face of Russia's advances in the arctic Canada needs subs THAT ACTUALLY WORK.  Having a boat with great capabilities on paper is no help. 

Last of all let me repeat a point that i've belaboured before, when making budget cuts politicians (and some military leaders) need to seek expert advice and analyse the long term picture, not just current threats.  Just a few years ago the possibility of a showdown between Canada and Russia in the arctic would have been scoffed at by many.  And just a few months ago many were arguing that the only likely battleground the CF would find themselves engaged on is in Kandahar.  Just because on the 15th of August 2006 there doesn't seem to be any apparent adversary that would challenge the Canadian Navy or Air Force in Canadian territorial waters or airspace doesn't mean that will be the case on 15th August 2007.
 
1. The Coast Guard has more experience in operating in the Arctic in one year than the Navy has in the last 25 years. When the Navy has ventured north it has had to rely on the Coast Guard to keep it refueled. It will take many years for the Navy to develope the Knowhow to operate safetly there.

2. None of any countries ships that operate in the Arctic are armed (except for small arms). Why do we need to arm our icebreakers , to start an arms race we could never win..

3. You are really dreaming if you actually think any Arctic disputes would ever be decided by anything other than international tribunals.

4. Don't you think it would be more practical to arm the Aurora with other than torpodoes , then it could be used anywhere rather than just the Arctic , also  CF-18's could be one site in area if required

5. Just what would Navy icebreakers do in the Arctic besides steaming around in circles boring their crews to death. The Coast Guard has many essential jobs it does in the Arctic , in fact usually more than it has ships for that just can't practially be done by the Navy.

6. I hope you realize that the new Artctic patrol ships will spend the bulk of there time on fisheries,drug & coastal patrol in the south freeing up the CPF'S for foreign deployments. They were a pr ploy , easier to sell to the public than the new Corvettes the Navy wanted for home waters. And given our climate it only made sense to make them ice strengthened.

7. Remember when the Navy had a ice breaker , HMCS Labrador it was fitted for but not with weapons and after a very short period the Navy realised it really didn't need it and gave it to the Coast guard who used it for a further 30 odd years. You may want a Navy icebreaker but i doubt very much the Navy agrees with you. Now the Coast Guard is a different story , they would really like to have some new Heavy Icebreakers if the Government would give them the money to operate them. Canada's present largest icebreaker spends a great deal of time alongside because the Coast Guard doesn't have the funds to operate it as much as it would like. As a matter of fact the ship along with the only other large icebreaker is due to move to another region of the country because the government has sold its old operating base along with 2 other Coast Guard bases in the Maritimes.  So in a few years the Maritimes went from 5 large icebreakers to 0 and the rest of the fleet wasn't spared either. For the Gov. to pretend interest in the arctic again ( its happened before but fades after a couple years) it has a funny way of showing it.

Cheers
 
Stoney: Exactly.  And as I have pointed out several times at various topics, CCG vessels do carry armed RCMP when necessary--now regularly on the St. Lawrence/Great Lakes--and presumably could act as a platform for CF personnel and their weapons (including mounting machine guns) if that was considered necessary.

The idea that our Navy, even if capable, would engage in a shoot-out with the Russians or Americans (or Danes) in the Arctic is simply silly.

Mark
Ottawa
 
I am glad your crystal ball is better then mine but to totally discount we won't be muscled out of the Arctic by the Russians or anyone else borders on stupidity. We need to prepare for the worse case scenario just in case the fit hits the shan. If we don't, we up the chance we lose people. Who knows in the future who will also decide they want a claim in the resources of the Arctic, you just cannot dismiss the possibility so cavalierly.

As for only small armed equipped ships in the Arctic, last I checked the Thetis class carried a 76mm.

One of the Zoomies will verify this but I think the CP140s lost their capability for fire missiles a long time ago...
 
Stoney and Mark:

The Danes are armed with guns so as to "out-gun" trawlers from Spain, Portugal, Iceland, the US, Russia, Norway and Canada. 

Their sailors get "bored silly" cruising in circles defending Denmark's right to lay claim to Lomontsov Ridge and Hans Island, just as their soldiers get bored silly doing Sirius Patrols of the Coast of Greenland.  They do it because they can and it works when laying claim in court.  (It'll be a heck of a thing if the Danes prove that the Lomontsov Ridge CONNECTS Greenland to Russia.  Will Denmark lay claim to Russia?)

Most sovereignty patrols are boring - as are most night-watchman's jobs.  That doesn't mean they don't have to be done.

Cruising in circles to support fisheries and anti-smuggling operations in the Open Water EEZ or the High Seas is also boring.  They also need to be done.

I don't care if these vessels WERE bought to:

"...spend the bulk of there (sic) time on fisheries,drug & coastal patrol in the south freeing up the CPF'S for foreign deployments."

Or that:

"They were a pr ploy , easier to sell to the public than the new Corvettes the Navy wanted for home waters."

As you say:

"... given our climate it only made sense to make them ice strengthened."

As I have said, the primary advantage of them is that they are "platforms/tin-cans/tupper-ware containers" with motors and flags manned by people who EXPECT to have to close on people shooting at them - and here I am talking about criminals and terrorists armed, potentially, with weapons that could include ATGMs or even SSMs. 

It seems reasonable that if this platform can supply 80% of Gordon O'Connor's "Canada First" Intent AND 80% of what the Navy wanted for an OPV that was both domestically effective and deployable AND would free up the CPFs for overseas deployments then it justifies itself as a useful buy.

You are right.  It is silly to envisage the Louis St-Laurent trading shots with the Healey.  It'd be worse than Fontenoy or Trafalgar - a 4 MPH approach speed and no room to manoeuvre. Just sit there and slug it out.  Tain't gonna hoppen.

Besides the Americans aren't bothered about meeting our Navy in the North.  They are bothered about NOT meeting our navy in the North and having the place open to the use of other, less friendly individuals.  And they have already demonstrated in Afghanistan and Iraq a willingness to "mow the neighbour's lawn" if the neighbour isn't taking care of it to their satisfaction.

BY ALL MEANS (sorry for the caps) buy new, heavier, unarmed breakers to maintain the CIVIL infrastructure up north - clearing industrial sites and navigable routes.  By all means they should have helicopter platforms and hotels on board.  And, by all means, make sure there is an RCMP/DFO det on board to enforce the laws.

However we all seem to be forgetting the "Reach Back Principle".  Properly applied it means the "night watchman" doesn't need to be armed.  He can reach back for assistance from an armed policeman on patrol in the area.  If the policeman can't get the job done he reaches back for an infantry platoon.  If that doesn't work time to call up a LAV Company, then an Armoured Battle Group, then Air Support, etc (mix and match to suit your tastes).

All of which supports your contention that the Breakers don't need to be armed.

It also supports the need for the NAVY to be able to operate in your vicinity.  If it can't patrol in your Area of Operations, if it can't deliver heavy weapons to your Area of Operations then, when you "reach back" there will be no one there to hand you the support you need.

As to the Navy not being able to operate in your Area of Operations I would suggest that you figure out how to help them get up to speed fast.

Their lack of experience is a result of both lack of appropriate kit and lack of interest.  Interest now seems to be there and kit seems to be coming.

And, once again, I hope that you get your heavy, unarmed, ice-breakers.  There's work for them. 

There is also work for the A/OPVs that is separate from your requirements.

Cheers.





 
I'm just wanted to address two key points you raised:

STONEY said:
1. The Coast Guard has more experience in operating in the Arctic in one year than the Navy has in the last 25 years. When the Navy has ventured north it has had to rely on the Coast Guard to keep it refueled. It will take many years for the Navy to develope the Knowhow to operate safetly there.

Which is why DND hires the senior people who do know the area like the back of their hands as trainers/advisors and you disseminate that knowledge

Capability does not need to be, and should not be stove-piped, nor ever used as an excuse not to re-allocate responsibilities.

STONEY said:
2. None of any countries ships that operate in the Arctic are armed (except for small arms). Why do we need to arm our icebreakers , to start an arms race we could never win..

I think pre-emptively abandoning military dominance over an area we're supposedly laying sovereign claim to, only invites others to bully us in that region, which in turn heightens, not reduces the likelihood of future conflict.


Matthew.    :salute:
 
The Economist assesses Arctic realities (good map):
http://www.economist.com/world/international/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9660012
...
For all the historic resonance of Russia's flag-planting foray, the current dash to the Arctic is not—or at any rate, not yet—a simple race to create “facts on the ground” which can then be consolidated, and if necessary defended, by military power. It has more to do with the establishment of legal arguments, which have to be shored up by scientific data.

All the parties with a claim to a slice of the Arctic are intensely conscious of the terms of the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, which is supposed to regulate almost all human uses of the high seas, from fishing to mining. Under the convention, governments can lay claim to an economic zone up to 200 nautical miles (370km) from their coast—or further, if they can prove that the area in question is an extension of their own continental shelf. Precisely such a claim is made by Russia with respect to the Lomonosov Ridge, which stretches from the Russian coast to Greenland. And this week's Scandinavian expedition may lend support to a claim by Denmark that the ridge is connected to Greenland, which is under Danish sovereignty. “There are things suggesting that Denmark could be given the North Pole,” as the country's science minister, Helge Sander, eagerly puts it. The Canadians, for their part, say the ridge could be an extension of their own Ellesmere Island.

Such a cacophony of arguments could keep lawyers and geographers busy for decades. So why the hurry? Because any country that wants to make a claim under the Law of the Sea must do so within a decade of ratifying it. Russia's deadline is 2009. Canada must set out its case by 2013, and Denmark by 2014.

As for the United States, it respects the convention in practice but has not ratified it, because some senators fear a loss of American sovereignty. The bodies created by the convention—the International Seabed Authority, and International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea—worry conservative American groups like the Heritage Foundation which fear global bureaucracies.

These objections may soon be overcome: the Bush administration, along with moderate Republican senators like Richard Lugar now want to sign up to the convention and start making America's case.

But between setting out a claim under the Law of the Sea and enjoying the fruits of ownership there is a long route to be trodden. An agency called the Commission on the Limits of the Continental Shelf decides on the merits of the case, but it has no powers of enforcement. A ruling may lead to counter-claims by other countries. In the end, bilateral talks may be needed; they can last for decades. There have been calls, over the years, for a more sensible way of dividing up the Arctic—but as the prizes look more tantalising, setting rules for the game will probably get even harder...

Take the Northwest Passage, to which the newly proclaimed Canadian port of Nanisivik marks the eastern entrance. At the moment, this route through the Canadian archipelago is navigable at best for a brief summer spell. (Sovereignty over the passage is one of the Arctic's many unresolved issues: Canada claims it, but the United States says the waters are international  [as does just about everybody else].) In theory, a complete opening of the Northwest Passage can shave 2,500 miles off a journey from Europe to Asia. But Lawson Brigham of the United States Arctic Research Commission, based in Alaska, is not convinced the financial gains will be dramatic. “Has anybody done the economics?” the former coastguard captain asks. In fact, he and fellow researchers from the Arctic Council are doing some sums at the moment; they will complete their assessment of global warming's impact on shipping next year.

Despite the appearance of a free-for-all, governments and scientists still co-operate over the Arctic; often there is no choice. In the Danish expedition that set sail this week, the Swedish ice-breaker is being led northwards by a larger Russian one, the 50 Years of Victory. And, despite a Canadian-Danish tiff over tiny Hans Island, the Canadians will help the Danes by providing some data on the ridge...

Mark
Ottawa


 
MarkOttawa said:
The Economist assesses Arctic realities (good map):
http://www.economist.com/world/international/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9660012
Mark
Ottawa

And all as it should be....

That doesn't prevent us arming police officers in low crime areas.
 
STONEY said:
2. None of any countries ships that operate in the Arctic are armed (except for small arms). Why do we need to arm our icebreakers , to start an arms race we could never win..

I really don't think that Rusky submarine only had a flag onboard, cash strapped as they are I'm pretty sure they had torpedos.

STONEY said:
4. Don't you think it would be more practical to arm the Aurora with other than torpodoes , then it could be used anywhere rather than just the Arctic , also  CF-18's could be one site in area if required
The Aurora doesn't operate solely in the arctic, they are a Martime Patrol Aircraft, and being an ex sailor who's never visited the Arctic, I've worked with more than a few in my time.

STONEY said:
6. I hope you realize that the new Artctic patrol ships will spend the bulk of there time on fisheries,drug & coastal patrol in the south freeing up the CPF'S for foreign deployments. They were a pr ploy , easier to sell to the public than the new Corvettes the Navy wanted for home waters. And given our climate it only made sense to make them ice strengthened.

What? and the CPF's and 280's dont spend a signifigant amount of time doing just that now.

I understand the CCG wants icebreakers at any cost but our sovereingty is being challanged for the first time since 1812, and I'm sorry no offence meant to the RCMP but a handful of pistols will do not good against a russion sub, even as a detterent. It's a grander version of why police carry pistols, not to shoot bad guys with, but to make bad guys think twice about shooting in the first place.
 
ArtyNewbie: What about the Fenian Raids of 1866?
http://www.historynet.com/magazines/military_history/3030166.html

Not to mention U-boats in the St. Lawrence during WW II.
http://www.junobeach.org/e/2/can-eve-mob-gol-e.htm

Mark
Ottawa
 
The Navy and the Coast Guard are two very different beasts with different tasks, however the Navy is going to need some Arctic capability and the Coast Guard is going to need to become a lightly armed service in support and defense of Canada’s coastlines. The arming of the Coast Guard will always be secondary to it’s primary tasks which are: SAR, Nav-Aids, Icebreaking and ocean science support. The first step for the Coast Guard is to set up the larger ships to mount HMG’s and secure comm’s (I think this is already happening) so they can support/protect boarding parties. The boarding parties will need to be made up of other services for now. The guard is far more economical in crew size than the navy, a 1100 class Icebreaker (272’) has a crew of 26, they don’t have enough crew for a dedicated boarding party and they don’t have the funds to increase crew size. The arming of the ships with HMG’s will be fairly cheap and training can take place at sea during regular crew hours. Also the possible use of a remote weapon station using a 25mm gun is quite feasible and enables the gunner to be on the bridge under the Captain’s control. This is another issue to be dealt with, is that the Captains are Merchant Seaman and may not be up to ordering their crews to firing on another ship, the guard would be loath to replace an otherwise excellent captain because of this issue. The Guard will need to start training young officers now in basic use of armed force to build the expertise. The other option is to place a senior naval officer aboard with the responsibility to handle the armed portion of a action, acting in a similar authority role as a Ships Pilot. So the real issue about arming the Guard is not the technical side, but creating a cultural shift to build the skills and attitudes required without also effecting their primary responsibilities.
 
Then there was the Alaska Boundary Dispute settled against Canada's claims in 1903.
http://thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=A1ARTA0000107

Of course in 1812 there was no one "Canada" and in 1866 and 1903 we were not fully sovereign.

Mark
Ottawa
 
I stand corrected

There were also some Japanese shootings (from a submarine I might add) on the west coast during WWII
http://www.pinetreeline.org/rds/detail/rds99-34.html

So there have been a few but this is the first time a Nation other than the US has attempted to claim Canadian Territory as thier own. If you boil it right down that would be like walking across the US Border at Seward and planting a Canadian Flag.
 
ArtyNewbie: Nobody is claiming any territory that Canada says is ours.  Moreover other countries are not "claiming" the maritime passageways--they are simply saying they are international waters, not Canadian domestic waterways.

Mark
Ottawa
 
MarkOttawa said:
ArtyNewbie: Nobody is claiming any territory that Canada says is ours.  Moreover other countries are not "claiming" the maritime passageways--they are simply saying they are international waters, not Canadian domestic waterways.

Mark
Ottawa

I don't quite understand your claim that nobody is claiming territory. The CBC website
lists five claims against Canadian territory.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/boundary_disputes/

The Canadian Geographic Society lists six on their website.
http://www.canadiangeographic.ca/mapping/mappingcanada/1999.asp

 
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