Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS

[Colin Parkinson]

Seen Chief...

But from Loachman's standpoint that would just be another place to land during another exercise - not a permanent commitment to the ship.

Even the CCG helicopters are merely attached for the trip, home ported at a base.

 

[Stoker]

Even the CCG helicopters are merely attached for the trip, home ported at a base.

We need to dust off the HUP 3's and use them on AOPS.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Even the CCG helicopters are merely attached for the trip, home ported at a base.

Still, different than an actual Griffon. The Griffon would not be onboard for the whole trip, but only incidentally land on an AOPS in the course of a North deployment/Exercise it would have reached either by itself or in the back of a C-17, probably for no more than either embarking some troops (ranger, likely) or dropping off a casualty or refuelling, etc. but no more.

Besides, unless they have been upgraded, I don't think the Griffon, as a rule, are fitted with the safety equipment for long transits over bodies of water.

 

[Privateer]

I thought that one of the roles of a helicopter accompanying an icebreaker is to scout ahead for the best route though the ice.  Wouldn't you therefore want a helo accompanying the ship for the entire deployment?

 

[MarkOttawa]

From 2015 on new CCG medium-lift helos--unlike CAF procurements acquired with little media attention and no political controversy (guess why? made in Quebec).  Coast Guard sure does fly under the radar most of the time:

Canadian Coast Guard’s New Medium-Lift Helos Sole-Sourced to Bell Helicopter Canada
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2015/04/11/mark-collins-canadian-coast-guards-new-medium-lift-helos-sole-sourced-to-bell-canada/

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Privateer: The Coast Guard helicopter will deploy North with the AOPS for the whole duration, and the Coast Guard is most likely going to provide the Ice Observer (known in vernacular as the Ice Pick) because that is a highly technical trade and they are very good at it.

Mark: unless you can point me to any other manufacturer of helicopters in Canada, your comment on the fact that it's because it's in Quebec is out of place, especially when you consider that Bell Textron builds and sells the 420's built in Quebec all over the planet to users that are perfectly satisfied with the product.

BTW, even as militarized version, in the Griffon, there is nothing wrong with the helicopter. It is superior to the old Iroquois, Twin Hueys and Kiowas it replaced. The negative comments you hear in the RCAF about it usually have to do with the fact that it is not as capable as the US Blackhawk, not that they have flaws in and of themselves. Well guess what? Dozens and dozens of other countries, including most other G-8/G-20 nations, don't operate Blackhawks but rather less capable helicopters because they happen to built them in own country or can't afford Blackhawks. Too bad, deal with it.

This blasting of anything as soon as it is associated with the word "Quebec" in these fora gets tiring.

/Rant off   

 

[PuckChaser]

Bell 412 is a great public safety helicopter, probably do real well for the Coast Guard. It's junk to support any sort of Army operations or as a real military helicopter. Max cargo weight is something like 1200lbs in Canada, which gets a lot lower at altitude and/or heat. 1200lbs is likely about 4.5 infantry soldiers with just patrol weight in Afghanistan. Look at the pictures of the Griffons in Iraq right now. I've never seen more than 2 pax in them with the door guns mounted.

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

Isn't the issue with the Griffon is armour weight?  Which wouldn't be applicable to Coast Guard 412 applications?

 

[PuckChaser]

Unless the armor is permanently bolted on in Canada, the flights I've been on have been around that 1200lbs pax/cargo weight.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Oldgateboatdriver: In fact the competition was effectively rigged to favour Bell, something apparently quite acceptable because of industrial benefits.  Were the helos made in, say, Ontario the same result no doubt would have occurred; I suspect only more so in case of Quebec, Canadian politics being what they are:

Canadian coast guard medium lift helicopters
Fairness Monitor final report
...
PPI Consulting Limited [ http://www.ppiconsultinglimited.com/ ]...PPI is an independent third party with respect to this activity. We reviewed all of the information provided and observed all relevant activities.
We hereby submit our Final Report, covering the activities of the FM commencing with the Request for Information (RFI) and vendor consultation process, RFP and subsequent proposal evaluation including operational testing...

During the consultation process, potential bidders had been made aware that a “Value Proposition” may be added to the RFP during the solicitation period as part of the assessment of the proposal’s industrial benefit to Canada. Although a placeholder had been included in the RFP for this requirement, the details were not finalized by Industry Canada until a few days prior to the RFP submission date. Amendment #8 was issued on May 28, 2014 to incorporate the change from Industrial and Regional Benefits (IRBs) to Industrial and Technological Benefits (ITBs) and to incorporate the new Value Proposition (VP) requirements. Subsequent Amendments (#s 9, 10, 11 & 12) were issued extending the closing date until July 7, 2014 and responding to specific ITB and VP clarification questions.

3.2 Proposal submission stage – Activities monitored

PWGSC received a proposal from one bidder by the closing date and time on July 7, 2014...

It is our professional opinion that the RFI and RFP processes, including the evaluation of the proposal received in response to the Canadian Coast Guard RFP for Medium Lift Helicopters, that we observed, was carried out in a fair, open and transparent manner.
https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/se-fm/2015/nov24-2014-eng.html

Make of that what one will.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[jollyjacktar]

So, if a CCG bird was embarked that would come with an CG Air Det too, yes? 

 

[MarkOttawa]

jollyjacktar:

...
Quick Facts

The helicopters are owned by the Canadian Coast Guard.  Transport Canada pilots and engineers fly and service the aircraft for Coast Guard operations...
https://www.canada.ca/en/fisheries-oceans/news/2016/12/government-canada-accepts-new-helicopters-canadian-coast-guard.html?wbdisable=true

Mark
Ottawa

 

[jollyjacktar]

Thanks, Mark.

 

[chrisf]

So, if a CCG bird was embarked that would come with an CG Air Det too, yes?

For reference purposes, a coast guard "air det" consists of a pilot and a mechanic.

They've got some very good pilots.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Do more with less too it seems to be.

 

[chrisf]

Do more with less too it seems to be.

How much do you need?

It's all we ever carried for the BO-105 helicopters.

Bare in mind, it's just a helicopter... no weapons systems, no surveillance systems, etc. Unless it's some sort of emergency, they usually only operate during day light hours

If they've got a bigger helicopter now, it might come with a co-pilot.

I'm sure they could stick any size of crew needed on the boat with the helicopters, but that's all we carried on the ice breakers or for a fisheries patrol.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Oldgateboatdriver: In fact the competition was effectively rigged to favour Bell, something apparently quite acceptable because of industrial benefits.  Were the helos made in, say, Ontario the same result no doubt would have occurred; I suspect only more so in case of Quebec, Canadian politics being what they are:

Make of that what one will.

Mark
Ottawa

This back and forth reminds me of my Master’s thesis - “How Nationalism Effects Government Policy Implementation in Belgium and Canada” - when I attended KU Leuven in the early 90s.  :facepalm:

 

[jollyjacktar]

How much do you need?

It's all we ever carried for the BO-105 helicopters.

Bare in mind, it's just a helicopter... no weapons systems, no surveillance systems, etc. Unless it's some sort of emergency, they usually only operate during day light hours

If they've got a bigger helicopter now, it might come with a co-pilot.

I'm sure they could stick any size of crew needed on the boat with the helicopters, but that's all we carried on the ice breakers or for a fisheries patrol.

Don't forget, I'm used to a whack of Zoomies coming with the bird.  As that's not my area of expertise, l can't say if they pack heavy or not (so to speak). Just one guy, seems amazing, that's all. 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

If they have no weapons, limited avionics and sensors (no RADAR, SONAR, etc) then the 1 tech would, in theory, have far less to support/maintain.  1 pilot for them, there's what...8? aircrew on a MH Det?

 

[chrisf]

Don't forget, I'm used to a whack of Zoomies coming with the bird.  As that's not my area of expertise, l can't say if they pack heavy or not (so to speak). Just one guy, seems amazing, that's all.

That's why I figured it was worth mentioning, big difference between what it takes to operate a navy helicopter and a coast guard helictoper.