Are Armed Forces demonstration teams relevent?

[aesop081]

After two years in the Airforce you know how much the budget of the Snowbirds is and how much a C17 costs. Impressive!

Well thank you.   I knew those things before i OT to the airforce..........i did OPDPs and ITC and other things we call professional developement.   I'm also a private pilot so i have an avid interest in all things flying. I also know alot about the navy ( just lack naval experience) because i like to be a well rounded soldier.   Maybe if you did things like that you would not be a "fatwogcpl"......

but anyways, enough about you....back to your regularly schedule topic.

So I will drag my NCM butt out of here and keep letting you guys pat

I dont know what you point is with the NCM comment..........i'm an NCM too  :

 

[George Wallace]

FatwogCpl

From some of your comments on this subject of demonstration teams, I am wondering what made you decide to join the military?   You seem to see no purpose to Drill and Ceremonial, nor to the requirements of Discipline.   These are all aspects of Military life and shown to the public in these "Demonstration Teams", be they the Riding Troop of the LdSH(RC), the Gun Run of 2 CMBG, the Snow Birds, or the Sky Hawks.   The Pomp and Pageantry of the NS Tattoo and numerous other Tattoos across the country also contribute to this display.   These are not, as some perceive, archaic practices, but the instilling of pride and discipline in one's military career building teamwork and character.  

The military is not a nine to five civie job (as some in the Purple Support Trades seem to think).

 

[WogCpl]

I agree, I watched the changing of the gaurd this summer and thought they did a very professional job, I've been to a few venues that had coyote survellience suites set up etc.
but by and large they are not full time demo teams, just regular troops showcasing their talent. i never said that i see no purpose in drill and cerimonial.
As for what made me want to join? Being a soldier. just so happens i managed to get a trade out of the deal as well. Your right about some of us  css thinking that it is a nine to five, but some of us take soldiering seriously.

 

[Slim]

I agree, I watched the changing of the gaurd this summer and thought they did a very professional job, I've been to a few venues that had coyote survellience suites set up etc.
but by and large they are not full time demo teams, just regular troops showcasing their talent. i never said that i see no purpose in drill and cerimonial.
As for what made me want to join? Being a soldier. just so happens i managed to get a trade out of the deal as well. Your right about some of us   css thinking that it is a nine to five, but some of us take soldiering seriously.

Part of what defines a country is tradition. All the things that are part of a countries history and are celebrated in modern day by doing things like, Starthcona SMT, the gun run and other such.

They all celerate who we are and should give our nation a bit of pride.

Would you and the others in your shop really be happy if it all went away?

 

[WogCpl]

no slim, if these things die completely we will lose some of our identity as a nation to some degree, but it is a discussion, and seems like it is becoming a little more civil.
like i said, the strats have the right idea! less cost to the CF but still a great image. The Snowbirds and Skyhawks have been thiilling people for years, and i don't like the idea of doing away with that, but what kind of financial savings to the CF would there be?

Like i said if it is significant, what would you do with the money?

 

[Slim]

For the SnowBirds and the SkyHawks the training value present that is demanded of our soldiers and airment would be critical in time of conflict.

The SnowBrids may not be practicing CAS or Cap but what about ACM...A valuable skill wouldn't you say...?!

Or HALO for the skyhawks!

You can't start to de-activate these things without looking at all the angles...

Slim

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

As mentioned before these demonstrations teams and grandiose parades are the best recruiting tools we have at present.  So despite the cost of what it is to maintain and run these things it is beneficial for us in the CF to have them considering how understaffed we are.

 

[ChopperHead]

Yes we need the demo teams. I have been to alot of airshows and such and the biggest attractions are always the SnowBirds and the I cant rember the name but the parachute team. Alot of young kids are inspired by these demos and is one of the reasons they want to fly commercialy or in the military. I used to have posters of the SnowBirds in my room when I was younger what other other part of the military can claim that? none. Anyway the problem with the snowbirds just like alot of things in the military today is that they are very old and in my opion unsafe especial for the level of advanced flying that they perform. We need to invest and purchase some new aircraft for them maybe something like the T-50 (korean).


kyle.

 

[WogCpl]

Good point guys, and the para team is the Skyhawks.
Annual budget of the snowbirds..10 000 000
87 team members!
I really hate picking on them but thanks to google they are the easiest to find info on. Probably because they are so well known and loved. my fondest memory of childhood was the airborne tatoo in edmonton, machine guns going off etc. were they a professional demo team, no.
why not make the snowbirds a bi annual event?
A lot of military history in my family and some members have been on these demo teams so i do not go into this lightly.

 

[Inch]

The show wouldn't be nearly as good if it was only bi-annually. Those guys practice twice a day during the winter and 3 times a day for the month leading up to airshow season.

$10 mil isn't a whole lot in the grand scheme of things, considering the amount of shows and number of hours they fly. The DND budget is $13 billion, $10 mil is peanuts. I'd rather see a kick ass airshow than fire off an extra 2 mags per year.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Perhaps that's because your or your buddies life doesn't depend on putting those 2 extra mags into the target. 

Kat

 

[Inch]

Perhaps that's because your or your buddies life doesn't depend on putting those 2 extra mags into the target.  

Kat

No, my life depends on my flying proficiency and 1 more hour of flying isn't going to make me or break me. Hell, if we divided up that $10 mil across the board, I'd end up with and extra 40 mins of flying, woopee! That could be the difference between 300hrs and 300.6 hours. I'll take the Snowbirds over that.

 

[WogCpl]

Didn't want  to make this just about the Snowbirds. They were just one example i could get info on. What about Reg force CF Bands. They all hold a base rank of Sgt.their instruments cost a lot, travel expenses etc. And what function do they serve? is this not somthing that could willingly be done by reserves?
Not picking on them, just a topic for discussion.

 

[Kat Stevens]

No, my life depends on my flying proficiency and 1 more hour of flying isn't going to make me or break me. heck, if we divided up that $10 mil across the board, I'd end up with and extra 40 mins of flying, woopee! That could be the difference between 300hrs and 300.6 hours. I'll take the Snowbirds over that.

I think you missed my point. Yours may not, but a few thousand combat arms guy's just might.  Different perspective is all

 

[Gunner98]

Old news Woggie - ever tried a parade with canned music?

July 20, 1997

OTTAWA â “ The Honourable Art Eggleton, Minister of National Defence, announced today that the Canadian Forces will restructure the Canadian Forces Band Branch to create brass and reed bands to be located in Edmonton and Esquimalt, in addition to the current four bands located in Winnipeg, Ottawa, Valcartier, and Halifax.

After three years of operation within a reduced structure as a result of the 1994 federal budget, it became clear that the current band structure could not fulfill all of its obligations. In May, the senior Canadian Forces leadership concluded that six smaller bands across Canada would better meet the requirements of the Canadian Forces to provide an appropriate level of musical services.

 

[Gunner98]

I think the CDS sums up this whole topic pretty well.

"Guardsmen" Rick Hillier and Daniel Gilbertâ ”known on any other day as the Chief of the Defence Staff (CDS) and the Canadian Forces Chief Warrant Officer (CWO) respectivelyâ ”paraded with the Old Guard on Parliament Hill.

In fact, just moments before leaving Cartier Square Drill Hall for the Hill, General Hillier said he had chills down his spine. Describing the Ceremonial Guard (CG) as a Canadian institution, encompassing teamwork, fitness, cohesion and leadership, he said it reflected superbly on the men and women in uniform. "To be part of it, if only for one day," said Gen Hillier, "was phenomenal. I'm thrilled."


http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/Land_Force/English/6_1_1.asp?id=636

 

[WogCpl]

Yup, canned music su*ks.
Reserve bands do pretty well though.
Yup The CGG and the GGFG put on a good show, but i don't think there annual operating budget is 10 000 000.

 

[George Wallace]

I'm not up on the way Bandsmen are promoted, but I do know that there is a system in place.  Although it may seem to many that the Band is all Sgt or WO ranks, on closer inspection you will find Pte and Cpl ranks also.  They have a QL/Trades Qualification/DP or whatever in place to be promoted, like all trades in the Forces.  They have to qualify on several instruments, and also read and compose, to differing degrees in their progression through the ranks.  They are Professional Musicians, who have chosen to serve in the CF.

 

[Inch]

I think you missed my point. Yours may not, but a few thousand combat arms guy's just might.   Different perspective is all

I don't want to get in a pissing match here, but I have some very big doubts that 60 more rounds down range is really going to make a difference. I'll get back to you on how well I do on the range next week after a 5 year hiatus from the C7. I'm pretty sure I'll be able to hit the target and score fairly well.

 

[WogCpl]

Your right they do need a degree in music to join and it is considered equivalent to a 6A, so they are promoted to Sgt upon completion of their PLQ , usually 6 months to a year.