Are We Wasting Our Effort?

[Jarnhamar]

Civilians, career ncm's, officers, serving soldiers and retired ones.   Soldiers who have been to Afghanistan, soldiers who haven't.  Even soldiers who have been injured over there ("Ask them if it was it worth it?") all seem to feel your in the wrong Cannonfodder. Not in a small way either it seems.
You've accused a few of us of not even reading your posts and basically just ignoring anything that's not our own perspective.

Have you considered taking a look at your own argument and re-evaluating your own perspective?

Could it be a case of johnny being the only one in step because of something happening to you while you served? Something caused you to go from one extreme to the other?

 

[pbi]

Cannonfodder: the points I would have made have largely been put forward by the other posters below, so I won't plough them over again.

I will grant you an additional point: that the Canadian public, despite a high mission profile, a number of very clear statements by the CDS (and other military leaders) and by the Govt, and fairly close media coverage (for Canada...) are still not as well informed about the situation in Aghanistan, what we have been doing there, or why we continue to hold a stake in that country, as they should be. I don't blame the military (or really even the Govt, this time) for this: people pay attention to whatever they want to, and interpret it however they wish. You (apparently) are in the group that doesn't really care about the facts, but merely puts a negative interpretation on everything, citing spurious comparisons to the failed Soviet campaign in Afghanistan, etc.

Will Afghanistan ultimately be a success? Who knows: that is up to the Afghans. Will it be free of terrorists? Probably not. But Spain, France, Greece and (for a long time...) the UK have all lived with domestic terrorism-countries can do it. If our interests include a secure and stable West Asia (and I believe that they do), then doing our part to bring stability to that region is far from a wasted effort. In area where five (and, potentially, six...) nuclear powers have interests, stability is a valuable quantity. Is the Army the only answer to Afghanistan's problems? : no-and all soldiers realize that. But we are a key part of the solution, because without security and stability the answer to my first question becomes much dimmer.

Finally, it seems to me that what really motivates much of your comment is not a real desire to understand Afghanistan, or our role there, or what the campaign plan goals are, but rather to peddle some very bitter opinions about the Canadian military, leadership in particular. I wonder if you have met, or served under, any of the current crop of senior leaders the Army has today? Are they all supermen or angels? No, but they are a whole hell of a lot better than much of what I have seen throughout my service, and a goodly number have already served in Afghanistan and other operations. BGen Devlin, for example, was wounded in Bosnia.

My guess is that your past experiences have totally soured you on the Army.

Cheers

 

[regulator12]

This is a good discussion, i just wanted to add something about stability and security in Afganistan. I know its one mans voice but on the news last night(ctv) they interviewed a afgan man, whos son was killed in the last suicide attack. He of course cant see why the Canadians are there and thinks that security is bad over there. I know this is one mans view, i dont know what the peoples views are over there. I just wonder what  the peoples views of Canadian troops are over there. Do they feel safe, has security tightened, reports say that violence in that region is at its highest since 2002, is this true? Anyone with experiance over there can ellaborate would be great.

 

[KevinB]

???

Have you been reading all our comments?  Several of us are over here.

WRT to the CTV interview - I did not see it (our TV is kinda limited) however everyone I have met while wearing a Cdn flag has had something positive to say about us - from our friendlyness to our willingness to help those in need etc. 

YES attacks are up, there are two main reasons for this 1) the Opium Erradication Programs are underway, this is driving the Warlords and other assholes a wee bit angry as their cash is taking a hit.  2) Coalition Forces are pushing the OMF (Outlaw Militia Factions - what we called them here last year apparently this year we have a new name  :) from some of their favourite rocks. 

Now either the Coalition will weather the storm and resultant casualties (I have no doubt the US will), or some countries will pack their bags and leave - abandoning the Afghans to civil war.

 

[Good2Golf]

Kev, latest term is ACM, anti-coalition militia...same stuff, different pile.

It certainly seems as though some folks are not taking the time to read what some of us over here are saying. 

I've had no less than four guys in the office I work in say they want to come to Canada to get an education and come back here because Canadians are so helpful over here...that's good enough for me that we're doing the right thing!

Cheers,
Duey

 

[regulator12]

You summed it up good KevinB. With regards to the news broadcast, that sort of broadcast paints a picture in Canadians head i am sure. Its hard for us sometimes to see the truth when the media focuses on just one aspect. We never hear on the news the good things that do happen over there. It s unfortunate as it misleads the public. But i guess thats what the news does, controversy, never the whole picture.
Keep up the good work over there.
Pete

 

[Jarnhamar]

A suicide bomber killed his son.  In my books that leaves one person responsible. Not a country who is spending tons of cash to improve their quality of life.  Not to mention our own soldiers dying there as well. Or the community projects our soldiers do or the doctors we have over there doing their magic.

Canadians don't murder people in public executions.  We don't blow ourselves up in crowds of men women and children.  We don't kill people who refuse to help us.

Lets keep the 'why are Canadians even here!' comments from a father who just lost his son in perspective.

 

[regulator12]

I wasnt using what that guy said to ask why canadian are there. I asked people who are over there if what he said is a general feeling over there or if its one mans view. I had asked a question and got an answer from Kevin. I wasnt questioning the reasons Canada is over there.
Pete

 

[Cannonfodder]

    Okay , my prejudices or observations of the qaulity of leadership will cease . I will limit my self to questions , How do you identify the terrorists ? , What type of training did the units going there to do prepare  for operating in a mountain environment ? , How do you protect your troops from IEDs ? , What  type of intelligence gathering techniques are being employed ?  . What will qauntify a mission success ? . How long will  a deployment at these numbers be maintained ? . What is the end game plan  for Afghanistan ? .  Did the troops get a chance to vote ?.

 

[PPCLI MCpl]

    Okay , my prejudices or observations of the qaulity of leadership will cease . I will limit my self to questions , How do you identify the terrorists ? , What type of training did the units going there to do prepare  for operating in a mountain environment ? , How do you protect your troops from IEDs ? , What  type of intelligence gathering techniques are being employed ?  . What will qauntify a mission success ? . How long will  a deployment at these numbers be maintained ? . What is the end game plan  for Afghanistan ? .  Did the troops get a chance to vote ?.

Yes, the troops got a chance to vote.

The answers to the rest of your questions can be found on this site with a little research.

 

[gnplummer421]

Cannonfodder,

I was reading a post of yours in the Medak pocket thread and I was wondering whether you had an experience there that made you bitter, and made you hold animosity towards parts of the military. I am curious about the emotional state of the folks that were there, and whether or not their experiences there profoundly changed their personalities/social behavior etc.

Gnplummer421

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Maybe he didn't get his Governor General Citation.

 

[Jarnhamar]

 

[Cannonfodder]

 Gnplummer421 , some peoples personalities have been  changed  myself  Iam just the regular  abrasive person that I have always been . Aside all that crap the main reason I find this situation troubling  is that the general concensus is that there is no long term plan out there in the media . As a soldier you sign up to defend Canada you put great faith in your leaders to make the right decisions but unforunately from my expieriance is that when the sheet hits the fan the leaders do not know what to do  , have no plan  generally leave things at an impasse . That is fine when your out in Wainwright or Suffield but when T 72s are firing into the house 300 meters up the road and your sustaining heavy shelling , you better have some contingency plans . So when I see soldiers getting injured and killed under similar circumstances  I feel we need to reevaluate or mission and mandate .
 Afghanistan is a  differant situation , but I think we are marching into this one with our heads down . I have come to this conclusion  by watching International sentiment wane . Countries are scaling back there prescence , not meeting there financial obligations , the global institutions [UN] that are suppose to assist in these situations are neutered . This would tell me that the will to prevail is not there , making a precence  not fixing the situation .
 Afghanistan is a land of shifting alliances , I think this war on terror is a failure to diagnos world problems objectively  . The way to stop terrorism is to listen . Scrape off all the labels  and angry rhetoric and listen .You will see that all these desperate and  calculated acts of terror are based on legitimate and often misunderstood rarely addressed grievances . It dosent take long for criminal , political  or religous groups  to capitalise on these grievances .
  Any solution  made with western involvement will be seen as an imposed  solution . A regional solution involving neighbouring states would be seen as more legitimate . As Canadians we are  often mistaken for Americans  in Europe , to the average Afghan we must appear to be American . This is a problem , that I dont think we will soon overcome . When rage is through the Muslim world and any muslim that has beef with America is flocking to Afghanistan and Iraq to fight the infidel , our prospects  of being mistaken  are good .
  I do not hate Americans but they have made a bad situation worse since 9/11 , they used Afghanistan as a battleground in the cold war , left it to the Taliban , invaded it again to route out Alqaeda and now they are pulling back there commitments , leaving others to pickup the pieces . It is fairly easy to tear down a house but it is a lot harder to rebuild it . When the going gets tough the tough get going .

 

[Cannonfodder]

CFL , actually I did not recieve The Governer General Citation  ,  no big deal.

 

[KevinB]

Cannonfodder -- IMHO you are not listening to those of us who have been here / are still here / are here again.

This is NOT FYR. 

The Coaltition is prepared to see the day -- but the issue is that the US has to draw down (and the UK) its troops due to comittments in Iraq.  Many of the so called Coalition of the willing had better step up to the plate rather than the token forces they have so far.  The avg deployment for US troops at last count (regular) is IIRC 12 months in Afghan and 24 Months in Iraq since Jan 1 2002 --- thats the equivalent of five Cdn tours -- so yeah I woudl say that Canada and several other nations are shirking troop comittments.

Second the ISAF "players" seem very content to hang about Kabul where is is (relatively) nice and safe rather than spred law into the provinces.

Thirdly the ETT's are turning out a professional Afghan National Army which is used more and more to allow Afghan to ensure their own destiny and peace and tranquility.  This is the most important issue for it allows the Afghan people to chart their future - not require foreign armies to enforce decrees from Kabul.

Cheers
Kevin   

 

[Good2Golf]

...
  Afghanistan is a  differant situation , but I think we are marching into this one with our heads down . I have come to this conclusion  by watching International sentiment wane . Countries are scaling back there presence , not meeting there financial obligations , the global institutions [UN] that are suppose to assist in these situations are neutered . This would tell me that the will to prevail is not there , making a presence  not fixing the situation .
  Afghanistan is a land of shifting alliances , I think this war on terror is a failure to diagnos world problems objectively  . The way to stop terrorism is to listen . Scrape off all the labels  and angry rhetoric and listen .You will see that all these desperate and  calculated acts of terror are based on legitimate and often misunderstood rarely addressed grievances . It dosent take long for criminal , political  or religous groups  to capitalise on these grievances .
  Any solution  made with western involvement will be seen as an imposed  solution . A regional solution involving neighbouring states would be seen as more legitimate
....

I assume from the portion of your previous post above that you are not going to look into any of the information reference provided in this thread to further inform yourself.

Had you bothered to do so...like look at http://www.ands.gov.af, you would now have a reasonable idea about Afghan and international community cooperative efforts to rebuild the nation.

Regarding Afghans' perceptions regarding such support, as someone who works with the Afghan government on a daily basis, and having just had a 10-minute chat with President Karzai's Senior Economic Advisor this afternoon, I will categorically say...

YOU ARE WRONG!

Frankly, any more posts of "what are we doing there?", "Afghans really don't want us there!", "The international support is waning!" that originate from your keyboard will certainly earn you a place on my ignore list.

Duey

 

[GO!!!]

Cannonfodder,

In regards to your service with two PPCLI Bns in two years, your claim of being in the Medak pocket, and your lack of CIC, I have to wonder....

Also, a problem without a solution is just a bitch. The only solution you have offered in the 12 pages or so of posts is to buy weapons from the locals. This has been proven to only remove the bottom five percent of the available firearms, and that has been alluded to here by others.

Terrorism is not an act of desperation, many of the foreign fighters in Afghanistan and Iraq today are middle class arab youth, undertaking a "right of passage" just like frosh week or spring break here. Our best interest is to ensure that any act of violence against us is responded to in such a manner that the perpetrator is himself killed, or captured. We (the western world) have been doing this so well that the bad guys now use suicide attacks or IED's because they know a classic ambush or attack is suicide. This proves that they really don't want to die, they just want to kill us. If they have to pump some young man up with drugs, delusions of grandeur and sleep deprivation to get him to do it - oh well.

You come off as a former infanteer with some hazy, unsubstantiated claims, a big chip on your shoulder towards the US, Ottawa and Canadian Generals, and no clue about what is going on in the world beyond what you read in the Globe and Mail. You had a bad experience in the CF, and you pulled pole and left - that was your choice. Now you are spouting off telling me that guys from my unit are being maimed and dying for nothing?

You may have done nothing important with your military career (if you really had one) but don't make the mistake of thinking that we are in the same boat. Everyone in Afghanistan right now is a volunteer. It is easy to shirk your duty and get off the tours right now, there is alot of interest in going.

I'll be leaving (again) in Feb 07, and it is nice to know that you think we are all wasting our time.

 

[gnplummer421]

Cannonfodder;

I agree with you on one topic at least, which is that when I wore my Canadian flag on my jacket, the Dutch in Amsterdam bought me lots of beer and they weren't buying the Americans any.

I have to say though, that you seem to be pi**ing off a lot of posters here. I never had to go to a dangerous mission or even a UN tour during my time in. The tank Regiment I worked with in Germany was put on stand by for the first Gulf war, but we were cancelled out, so I cannot speak from experience. I strongly believe though, that I would not have hesitated to go anywhere with my Regiment. I felt a strong pride of belonging to my unit, and still think about my old army mates often. Would I have been bitter if my Officer/leader was weak under pressure? Not sure since I was never in that situation. The situation you were in is a long time ago, is that what made you abrasive or were you always like that.

Gnplummer421

 

[Cannonfodder]

  I never said that we should not be in Afghanistan Iam just voicing my displeasure  with the way the situation has and is  developing .