Are We Wasting Our Effort?

[gnplummer421]

Cannonfodder,

I think our involvement in A-stan is getting better all the time...more assets moving in to place, some really good Special Ops guys, and our Coyotes and LAV's are very effective in the environment. This is the only way an army improves it's skills..in live situations where split second decisions are made, leaders are formed and boys become men. Maybe this analogy sounds cold, but in essence it is a cold fact. Why do you think the Israeli army is so effective...experience through continuous warfare. I'm probably going off topic, but I'm feeling a bit cranky tonite

I am patriotic and I strongly support our troops, I want to know how you feel about the army of today, do you strongly support them? and tell me what , in your opinion, some solutions are for the questions you asked before about A-stan.

** I'm having a few brew tonite, so if I get unpolitical, just tell me 

 

[Cannonfodder]

  If any of you have built on swamp  or marsh this process sounds familiar.To build on a swamp you must first fill it with gravel , drain it , compact it  and repeat this process until you obtain satisfactory compaction . Bringing Afghanistan out of the dark ages is alot like building on a swamp but in the middle of the everglades . Neighbouring countries Pakistan with all its madrassas and oppresive government , Iran  a  soon to be nuclear capable  nemesis of the USA  are going to make  draining this swamp very difficult . Everytime you think that your starting to get a leg up on the problem the pumps will break taking you back to square one . In order to effectively drain the swamp you need to extend your perimeter this means you need to deal with problems outside your borders .
  Iran needs to be dealt with effectively  , Pakistan needs to improve its relations with its people of course  dealing with these countries will enevitably  lead to the Israel situation . Western invovlement in the middle east will also be up for discussion leading me to conclude that unless thes issues are addressed Afghanistan will enjoy a tedious peace amongest in some urban areas . Lasting peace will only be achieved through negotiations with the marginalised ,  rogue states . Not to sound pesimistic the current political process is myopic , a pan middle east solution is required  to stabilise the region as a whole . Stabilzing the region as a whole is key to securing a lasting peace in Afghanistan .
  Foreign economic investment will give opportunities to the Afghan peoples , but what type of investment ? , this is where Afghanistans neighbours come into play . Iran is rich in oil and China needs oil , a  Pan Afghanistan  pipeline to  China  could be financed  with out IMF or World bank monies . Afghanistan could recieve royalties from delivery charges. Increased electrical production capability through hydro electric generation  and mineral exploration  for export to China will give the Afghan economy a kick start . Mineral exploration has been asleep in Afghanistan for sometime and she will awake to  record high commodity prices . Mineral Exploration companies do not need a secure environment they bring there own [Sandline] and regularly operate in these type of environments[Congo , Liberia , Sierre Leone ] . Finding and proving reserves will bring in foreign investment . China and Iran can have a pivotal role in contributing to the rebuilding of Afghanistan but thus far have been neglected.
 

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

...and without securing hard-fought peace [ ie. killing the baddies] those are just wonderful whimsical ideas.........and mean nothing.

 

[Kat Stevens]

From an Engineering standpoint, when draining a swamp, job one is to kill all the snakes and alligators.  :warstory:

 

[Cannonfodder]

     Bruce   , myopia   pervades  your sentiments how are you going to kill the " Baddies " if you can not identify them ? and  porous borders will bring more to the fray . Accelerating your offensive will only exponentially compound your problems . Lets not get to over confident here sure we have a modern army that is fairly well trained but your adversary is unknown , has been brought up in conflict  , has never known peace , to say your going to kill him is presumptuous  . Placing fill in the swamp kills the environment that sustains  the snakes and alligators .
     Heavy handed tactics bring more losses entrench the conflict , set pretexts for further bombings  and are regressive to conflict resolution . Aim sure the Israelis can testify to that , it seems that any beliefs that you can remove a couple of baddies and solve the problem is thoroughly short sighted . Our troops have to play a game by rules that there adversaries has no respect of . I wish the troops luck  , but dint expect any miracles until attitudes to solving the problems change .
     Before you make any responses  try and come up with some original solutions and Dependant thought instead of  cave man solutions , kill , smash , and destroy . This isn't SOCOM  Navy Seals  there are long reaching effects that will be reaped if we go out playing Wyatt Earp without a larger concensus for the whole .
    Sure I support the troops but Aim not going to get  sticker or a ribbon . Ive always found that ribbon BS ,well intentioned  none the less  to be an empty gesture save the lip service get them the right kit , troops see through that  crap . The government and leadership has let them down they intially put them in theater without the proper kit  we see the results  . Its like they wanted to see how cheap they could be and provide  minimal protection .Thankfully they are getting some more suitable vehicles but it was a steep learning curve  and now they want to  attend another course  where the tution is very high .The general sentiment  Aim getting is that we are right and thats it . Blind faith and obedience gets you into ambushes it always good to be a tad bit cynical.

 

[big bad john]

After reading the post by big bod john, best wishes to the wounded and may they get well soon. I can't imagine the pain they have and still will go through.

All that despite disrespectful comments like those of Cannonfodder, questioning the mission that they gave so much (their physical body) for. I'm sure the anti-CF movements are recruiting these days, maybe you'd like to join Cannonfodder.

Tsk Tsk, now don't feed the troll.  lol

 

[Cannonfodder]

  Man you guys are brain washed nothing I have said is  Anti CF , if a person does not like what he is seeing and voices  an opinion it should no way be construed as Anti CF  . Individuals get severly injured in a mission that has no defined boundaries or objectives  give me a break . This is not the first time this has happened and certainly will not be the last  . These poor guy s are going to be disabled for the rest of there lives for what ? . Well I guess there getting Nyalas now , how did we get the G wagons ? ,  vehicles bought and paid for in soldiers blood . Why  is there a lack of resolve in NDHQ to lobby for proper equipment  aggressively  , they either dont have a clue or they dont have the spine to speak up . They send troops to one of the worst sheet holes on earth with soft skin vehicles ,  what do they expect ? . It s a bad situation when your leadership has to use its own soldier blood in order to shame your government to get the proper equipment .

 

[Walrus]

Cannonfodder:

I would LOVE to meet you sometime and give you my response in person pal !

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

yep definitely didn't get his Governor General Citation for the Medak.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Brainwashed huh.
I think you might have picked up some conditioning when you were in Iran

These poor guy s are going to be disabled for the rest of there lives for what ?

You're trying to over think the matter.
Why? Because they are soldiers and they were carrying out a job ordered by the government whom the Canadian citizens voted into power.  How'd you vote last year and the election before? Hummm

It's obvious your beef is with the goverment but your comments about how our soldiers are getting wounded/dying for nothing probably isn't comming out like you want it to. Maybe you should rethink your angle and choose your words to better suit the enviroment you're in.

 

[regulator12]

This board is very criticle of people who critisise the military. Cannonfodder has an opinion and is voicing it. To some degree he has a point.
I know i am going to get flammed for defending him to a point. I dont agree with everything he says, but i do think that he is right when he says that our government has no spine. The liberal government had no spine, hopefully that will change now that the Conservatives are in power. Just my 2 cents bring on the flames...
pete

 

[Michael OLeary]

regulator12, this board is not overly critical of those who criticize the military or many other things. It is, however, intolerant of posters who repeatedly post nothing but poorly expressed attitude. Any opinion can be expressed in a calm and rational manner that promotes clear debate and avoids inciting equally strong responses. Unfortunately, cannonfodder chose a poor tactical approach and has suffered the slings and arrows of others for it. He also had bad timing, hinging his comments on the recent death and injuries sustained by Canadians in theatre, a time when he should have known better than to wrap their sacrifice up in his own bitterness.

 

[regulator12]

your right mike, and i agree with you. There is a time a place to post opinions and when to hold those thoughts for later. I agree that this board is not overly criticle i take that back.
Pete

 

[48Highlander]

  Man you guys are brain washed nothing I have said is  Anti CF , if a person does not like what he is seeing and voices  an opinion it should no way be construed as Anti CF

So let's see, so far you have insulted all of our leadership, claiming that they're incompetent.
you've insinuated that our officers don't care about the soldiers.
you've suggested that we have no idea wtf we're doing in Afghanistan.
you've flat out stated that we're wasting our time, and have no hope of success.
you've insulted the average soldier by suggesting that we're just mindlessly following orders.

I'm sure there's a lot more, but I'm going to stop here because that's more than enough to show what a goddamn coward you are.  You spend countless posts criticizing us, insulting us, and questioning our motives, and then claim that "if a person does not like what he is seeing and voices  an opinion it should no way be construed as Anti CF".  Well, you're right, simply voicing ones opinion on one matter does not make you anti-CF.  YOU on the other hand have undertaken a dedicated campaign to discredit us and everything we do.  That DOES make you anti-CF.  At least have the balls to admit it.

 

[Forgotten_Hero]

Why? Because they are soldiers and they were carrying out a job ordered by the government whom the Canadian citizens voted into power.

Who volunteered and knew all the risks, by the way.

This board is very criticle of people who critisise the military.

Really? Thats odd... the name of the website is only army.ca... who would have thought...?

 

[NL_engineer]

Cannonfodder,

Your pipeline idea being an ok one has only one fatall flaw: insergants will target it, for example look at Iraq, the pipe lines over there are nice targets. :threat: With mention of the Chinese, NATO should try to get there army to help in Afghanistan; not just try to get fuel from Iran, and protect the pipeline for them.

BTW please leave more white space in your posts ;D

 

[GO!!!]

Cannon fodder
WHAT IS YOUR GREAT IDEA FOR SUCCESS IN AFGHANISTAN - WE KNOW THAT YOU DISAGREE WITH EVERYTHING WE SAY, DO AND HAVE, SO TELL US HOW TO FIX IT OR STFU!!

Just answer the question, you are so smart, it must be great, you are just trolling here to get our attention - right?

 

[Jaxson]

:argument:

And im gonna agree with GO!!! on this one.

 

[JCof]

After reading these last nine pages I'm thinking that cannonfodder really is just here to try and argue with people. I bet if everyone started agreeing with him he would do a 180 just to be belligerant. The big irony here is that the thread is called "Are We Wasting  Our Effort"  I think the answer is yes.

 

[Haggis]

The big irony here is that the thread is called "Are We Wasting  Our Effort"  I think the answer is yes.

As far as this thread is concerned, I agree with you.

GO!!!:  BZ.