C3 Howitzer Replacement

[markppcli]

Considering the Regular force has a hard time deploying on 90 days notice unless they are the Reaction group or what ever they call them this year. It will not happen in todays environment,

IRU and High readiness regularly deploy, sometimes that’s in Canada some times it’s not.

to many people against the idea of equipping Reserves with good equipment, providing steady training and real budgets consistently

Hard to organize steady training with inconsistent and unreliable attendance.

I am sure if they equipped a Reserve force correctly, gave them the budget, provided the training you would be surprised what could be accomplished.

Until we can actually compel, or are willing to compel, mandatory attendance it’s all up in the air.

One might be surprised who would show up to perform those functions of uncool stuff if they mix it in with some actual cool stuff.

Eh logistics tasks doesn’t exactly compel excitement and you need people to be familiar with those tasks. It’s takes time in position.

 

[FJAG]

Eh logistics tasks doesn’t exactly compel excitement and you need people to be familiar with those tasks. It’s takes time in position.

It takes a lot of things but compelling excitement isn't the main one. The US ARNG has 28 BCTs and each one has a brigade support battalion (which provide a forward support company to each other battalion in the brigade and have roughly a thousand troops in it). In addition, the ARNG/USAR provide 11 of 13 above divisional level sustainment brigades and the ARNG provide 8 of the 18 divisional level sustainment brigades.

Equipment, a role, and suitable training within a structured environment (that includes achievable and mandatory training) seems to do the trick. There seems to be enough job satisfaction to keep ARNG/USAR truckers, maintainers and loggies in the ranks.

I too would find it hard to generate excitement in a Canadian reserve service battalion which only has a handful of trucks and very few specialist vehicles. @dapaterson has a much better handle on what makes up a Canadian reserve service battalion than I - my recollection goes back too far and all I recall is that the battalion in Toronto (when it was Service Corps and Rceme) and the one at Minto had no more than two dozen or so vehicles each.

 

[childs56]

IRU and High readiness regularly deploy, sometimes that’s in Canada some times it’s not.



Hard to organize steady training with inconsistent and unreliable attendance.

hard to commit to something if funding is there one year and gone the next for basic things. Things get cancelled regularly with short notice leaves a person on vacation time with no where to go.

Until we can actually compel, or are willing to compel, mandatory attendance it’s all up in the air.

I disagree, We want people to be there on their own free will. We need people to want to to be there, otherwise they wont join in the first place. That is the key, we can offer employer s a incentive to work with us.

Eh logistics tasks doesn’t exactly compel excitement and you need people to be familiar with those tasks. It’s takes time in position.

I disagree, lots of people would drive a big ass army truck into the woods on a weekend to go deliver fuel to a remote site, or drop off supplies.
There are a lot of people who already have these or similar skills outside of the military who might be enticed to come along if they get to drive or shoot a tank also.
There is no actual reason why a tank Sqn could not be stood up in Calgary for example. Have the new Troopers learn how to run refueling, ammo and food trucks. Run those, then as they progress get to drive a real tank, not a armored car.
The same could go for any group.
Then when you go on exercise you are assigned to drive a fuel truck this time and the tank the next time.
Or how many walking type people wouldn't mind a exercise where they drive a fuel truck opportunity once in a while.

 

[Furniture]

I disagree, lots of people would drive a big ass army truck into the woods on a weekend to go deliver fuel to a remote site, or drop off supplies.
There are a lot of people who already have these or similar skills outside of the military who might be enticed to come along if they get to drive or shoot a tank also.
There is no actual reason why a tank Sqn could not be stood up in Calgary for example. Have the new Troopers learn how to run refueling, ammo and food trucks. Run those, then as they progress get to drive a real tank, not a armored car.
The same could go for any group.
Then when you go on exercise you are assigned to drive a fuel truck this time and the tank the next time.
Or how many walking type people wouldn't mind a exercise where they drive a fuel truck opportunity once in a while.

That's not how occupations work.

The CAF doesn't need people who just want to do "cool" stuff, the CAF needs people who will show up to do the work required. An armoury filled with people who only do the minimum "boring" stuff to get them into the "cool" jobs is an armoury full of people the CAF doesn't need.

 

[markppcli]

hard to commit to something if funding is there one year and gone the next for basic things. Things get cancelled regularly with short notice leaves a person on vacation time with no where to go.

This is related to my second point

I disagree, We want people to be there on their own free will. We need people to want to to be there, otherwise they wont join in the first place. That is the key, we can offer employer s a incentive to work with us.

Inconsistent attendance makes planning anything next to impossible. I just spoke to a MBdr that’s RSS right now, they planned an exercise for their guys. 50 people said yes, 5 showed up. How can you plan like that.

I disagree, lots of people would drive a big ass army truck into the woods on a weekend to go deliver fuel to a remote site, or drop off supplies.

Then where are they.

There are a lot of people who already have these or similar skills outside of the military who might be enticed to come along if they get to drive or shoot a tank also.

Where are they

There is no actual reason why a tank Sqn could not be stood up in Calgary for example. Have the new Troopers learn how to run refueling, ammo and food trucks. Run those, then as they progress get to drive a real tank, not a armored car.
The same could go for any group.

No tanks, no training areas.

Then when you go on exercise you are assigned to drive a fuel truck this time and the tank the next time.
Or how many walking type people wouldn't mind a exercise where they drive a fuel truck opportunity once in a while.

So they do t actually learn the job.

 

[Kirkhill]

It takes a lot of things but compelling excitement isn't the main one. The US ARNG has 28 BCTs and each one has a brigade support battalion (which provide a forward support company to each other battalion in the brigade and have roughly a thousand troops in it). In addition, the ARNG/USAR provide 11 of 13 above divisional level sustainment brigades and the ARNG provide 8 of the 18 divisional level sustainment brigades.

Equipment, a role, and suitable training within a structured environment (that includes achievable and mandatory training) seems to do the trick. There seems to be enough job satisfaction to keep ARNG/USAR truckers, maintainers and loggies in the ranks.

I too would find it hard to generate excitement in a Canadian reserve service battalion which only has a handful of trucks and very few specialist vehicles. @dapaterson has a much better handle on what makes up a Canadian reserve service battalion than I - my recollection goes back too far and all I recall is that the battalion in Toronto (when it was Service Corps and Rceme) and the one at Minto had no more than two dozen or so vehicles each.

In the US you get what you give. The US provides cash in kind as wages, education, benefits and opportunities in return for jobs performed and services delivered. A mechanic will mechanic for the government for part of his or her working life in return for those wages, benefits and opportunities.

Not everyone wants to "stick a bayonet in a face"

 

[Kirkhill]

My take on the whole issue is this:

'It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.

Three options:

Compulsion -
Benevolence -
Contracting -

Compulsion is akin to slavery.
Benevolence is subject to whim and vagary.

Neither one is a solid basis for planning.

A sound basis is contracting.

Sign people up and have them commit to a contract. But show the signators the benefits of the contract immediately and continually. Then you can hold them to the terms of their contract - then you can compel them.

Don't pay people after the fact for a few hours of labour. Pay them before the fact for a lifetime of service. Engage them on stipends that will tie them to you for extended periods.

If you want them full time then pay them a full time salary. If you want them in a reserve capacity then pay them a continuing stipend to compensate them for the ongoing inconvenience of including you in their lives and having to balance your needs against their personal needs.

 

[FJAG]

That's not how occupations work.

The CAF doesn't need people who just want to do "cool" stuff, the CAF needs people who will show up to do the work required. An armoury filled with people who only do the minimum "boring" stuff to get them into the "cool" jobs is an armoury full of people the CAF doesn't need.

Actually, I think it does need the folks who want to do "cool" stuff. That's the difference between the full-timers who are looking for a profession or a career, and the part timers who want to engage in something different. And that is exactly what the CAF needs: a solid professional core to form the foundation to build on and around and a larger mass to fill out the ranks and provide the breadth and depth needed for a viable fighting force.

Those who look for a "professional" reserve force will be constantly frustrated because they've lost the focus on what a reserve really is. What reserves do is not the "work" that's the purview of the full timers. What reserves do is train to be ready to do the work when really needed. Never forget that part-time reserve service can be turned into full-time service at the whim of the GoC.

 

[Kirkhill]

Actually, I think it does need the folks who want to do "cool" stuff. That's the difference between the full-timers who are looking for a profession or a career, and the part timers who want to engage in something different. And that is exactly what the CAF needs: a solid professional core to form the foundation to build on and around and a larger mass to fill out the ranks and provide the breadth and depth needed for a viable fighting force.

Those who look for a "professional" reserve force will be constantly frustrated because they've lost the focus on what a reserve really is. What reserves do is not the "work" that's the purview of the full timers. What reserves do is train to be ready to do the work when really needed. Never forget that part-time reserve service can be turned into full-time service at the whim of the GoC.

There's that word again: Whim.

That is the anti-thesis to good planning. If you want people to act on your whim then you are going to have to compensate them fairly and not just expect to expropriate their labour on your whim because you failed to plan for the situation in which you find yourself.

If you want to keep a butler on hand you are going to have to pay him.

 

[Furniture]

Actually, I think it does need the folks who want to do "cool" stuff. That's the difference between the full-timers who are looking for a profession or a career, and the part timers who want to engage in something different. And that is exactly what the CAF needs: a solid professional core to form the foundation to build on and around and a larger mass to fill out the ranks and provide the breadth and depth needed for a viable fighting force.

Those who look for a "professional" reserve force will be constantly frustrated because they've lost the focus on what a reserve really is. What reserves do is not the "work" that's the purview of the full timers. What reserves do is train to be ready to do the work when really needed. Never forget that part-time reserve service can be turned into full-time service at the whim of the GoC.

Agreed, though there is a massive difference between joining as a combat arms soldier to do "cool" stuff, and joining as a logistics member just to get a chance to drive a tank.

I'm not against using the cool parts of the job to attract and retain people. I'm against selling support jobs by dangling "cool" combat arms stuff in front of people. It inevitably leads to recruiting people not interested in actually doing support jobs, or disappointment from people who realize that the "cool" stuff only happens on a rare occasion.

Get new guns, and AD kit for the artillery reserves, but don't sell service battalion jobs with the offer of shooting a 105mm gun after driving rations for a weekend.

 

[FJAG]

There's that word again: Whim.

That is the anti-thesis to good planning. If you want people to act on your whim then you are going to have to compensate them fairly and not just expect to expropriate their labour on your whim because you failed to plan for the situation in which you find yourself.

If you want to keep a butler on hand you are going to have to pay him.

I'm not sure that I follow. The word "whim" may be a bit capricious. What I meant by that was that the decision to switch from part-time to full-time need not be a voluntary one but can happen at the order of the government. As far as I'm concerned, reservists in general are being fairly compensated for their time although I've always felt that there should be a little something more in their pension package to compensate for having been on "stand by" for a decade or two.

Agreed, though there is a massive difference between joining as a combat arms soldier to do "cool" stuff, and joining as a logistics member just to get a chance to drive a tank.

Yeah. That's a bit off. But being a logistician in order to drive 10 tonners and do night DPs and firing small arms and sleeping in the woods in winter are all part of what makes the job "different" and interesting from ones civvy job.

I'm not against using the cool parts of the job to attract and retain people. I'm against selling support jobs by dangling "cool" combat arms stuff in front of people. It inevitably leads to recruiting people not interested in actually doing support jobs, or disappointment from people who realize that the "cool" stuff only happens on a rare occasion.

Again I agree. I think the best thing we could do to help the army is to hire a lot of reserve maintainers by giving them a subsidized college education, summer employment for conversion training and then a year Class B callout so that they can a) get experience and pad out their resume and b) provide an annual crew of low cost labour to work under supervision and get stuff fixed and on the road. Require some minimal obligatory reserve service afterwards to maintain their military skills (but not expecting any work output from them - expecting work output from a Class A maintainer is something we shouldn't count on)

Get new guns, and AD kit for the artillery reserves, but don't sell service battalion jobs with the offer of shooting a 105mm gun after driving rations for a weekend.

Fully agree. And quite frankly the subsidized education and "apprentice" model works for many support service trades (cooks, truckers, medical, etc) because there are analogues in their civilian professions that the training and service helps with and yet provides them a way of practicing their craft in a "different" way. It's a slightly different carrot one uses but it's a carrot nonetheless.

The folks coming to be tankers, gunners, grunts and engineers need slightly different carrots.

In the end, there is one common component. You need equipment. Whether its a tank or a fuel bowser is irrelevant. You need the equipment that you've trained the person on or else they will quickly realize that they are the participants in a huge shell-game and will lose interest.

 

[childs56]

That's not how occupations work.

I know when we were on exercise we would either drive back to town and fill our trucks or send a MLVW with jerry cans. We use to comment how a fuel truck would have been nice to have. The Local service battalion did not have one. The US offered to loan us one but we did not have someone qualified to operate it.
We could have substituted the MLVW for a fuel truck. We could have practiced refueling along the route, in the field etc. Instead we used jerry cans.
Valuable skills, we use to pick up our ammo from the semi truck that delivered it and load it onto a MLVW and or direct to the Gun Tractors. No SVC Battalion people any where to be seen.

The CAF doesn't need people who just want to do "cool" stuff, the CAF needs people who will show up to do the work required. An armoury filled with people who only do the minimum "boring" stuff to get them into the "cool" jobs is an armoury full of people the CAF doesn't need.

LOL, last time I checked not many people join to dig a hole in the ground, but they want to shoot a gun. Maybe you could also learn to drive your own fuel truck.

Agreed, though there is a massive difference between joining as a combat arms soldier to do "cool" stuff, and joining as a logistics member just to get a chance to drive a tank.

Honestly we could have people learn how to operate a fuel truck. Afterall we don't have a Military large enough to not cross train. Maybe change what we train on.

I'm not against using the cool parts of the job to attract and retain people. I'm against selling support jobs by dangling "cool" combat arms stuff in front of people. It inevitably leads to recruiting people not interested in actually doing support jobs, or disappointment from people who realize that the "cool" stuff only happens on a rare occasion.

We don't have lots of people banging the doors down to drive a fuel truck. But we do have a few wanting to drive tanks and blow stuff up.

Get new guns, and AD kit for the artillery reserves, but don't sell service battalion jobs with the offer of shooting a 105mm gun after driving rations for a weekend.

Refer up top. We already fueled our own trucks and bombed our own ammo in the field.
Driving trucks and fueling equipment is a generic task, no reason not to cross train and have people know how to operate the bowser.

This is related to my second point



Inconsistent attendance makes planning anything next to impossible. I just spoke to a MBdr that’s RSS right now, they planned an exercise for their guys. 50 people said yes, 5 showed up. How can you plan like that.

Why is a MBdr RSS staff is the first question?
What type of exercise was it? Did they have the proper equipment/ ammo? Did they change the scope of the ex by going from live fire to dry ex? Was the ex during the extreme cold snap?
To many questions to know why only 5 showed up to a unit exercise out of 50.

Then where are they.


Where are they




No tanks, no training areas.

2.5hrs to Suffield and 4.5hrs to Wainwright. Equipment base out of Suffield, hop on a bus and go train.

So they do t actually learn the job.

How so? Fueling isnt a constant job. You can rotate people through.

 

[Kirkhill]

I'm not sure that I follow. The word "whim" may be a bit capricious. What I meant by that was that the decision to switch from part-time to full-time need not be a voluntary one but can happen at the order of the government. As far as I'm concerned, reservists in general are being fairly compensated for their time although I've always felt that there should be a little something more in their pension package to compensate for having been on "stand by" for a decade or two.

Why not secure their services in advance with an upfront payment?

Signing bonus of $2000. You are then on the hook to show up on given dates for given duties. Appearance will gain additional payments and contribute to accumulated benefits.

Failure to appear will result in a demand to repay the bonus and loss of accumulated benefits.

Bonus to be paid every January 1 in return for annual renewal of the commitment.

 

[FJAG]

Why not secure their services in advance with an upfront payment?

Signing bonus of $2000. You are then on the hook to show up on given dates for given duties. Appearance will gain additional payments and contribute to accumulated benefits.

Failure to appear will result in a demand to repay the bonus and loss of accumulated benefits.

Bonus to be paid every January 1 in return for annual renewal of the commitment.

Any lawyer will tell you that paying in advance for services later is like having J. Wellington Wimpy say "I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today" . . . he never shows up on Tuesday.

I'm more a carrot and stick guy. Hold out the performance bonus to come after good performance. One already get's on the CAF on the hook when you subsidize education on obligatory terms of service (in my era there was the case of the 4 dentists who decided obligatory service after the DOTP wasn't their thing.)

I wouldn't want to go through all that rigamarole with thousands of impecunious privates.

Re-enlistment bonuses for a proven product, on the other hand, I could agree with. I'd couple that with the release of poor performers to open up the position for fresh blood.

 

[markppcli]

I know when we were on exercise we would either drive back to town and fill our trucks or send a MLVW with jerry cans. We use to comment how a fuel truck would have been nice to have. The Local service battalion did not have one. The US offered to loan us one but we did not have someone qualified to operate it.
We could have substituted the MLVW for a fuel truck. We could have practiced refueling along the route, in the field etc. Instead we used jerry cans.

Jerry can refilling is a viable DP system. No reason not to train that.

Valuable skills, we use to pick up our ammo from the semi truck that delivered it and load it onto a MLVW and or direct to the Gun Tractors. No SVC Battalion people any where to be seen.

SVC Bns don’t conduct front line replenishment.

LOL, last time I checked not many people join to dig a hole in the ground, but they want to shoot a gun. Maybe you could also learn to drive your own fuel truck.

It’s not the learning to drive the truck, it’s the learning the plan the muscle movements in a larger scale.

Honestly we could have people learn how to operate a fuel truck. Afterall we don't have a Military large enough to not cross train. Maybe change what we train on.

We don't have lots of people banging the doors down to drive a fuel truck. But we do have a few wanting to drive tanks and blow stuff up.

Refer up top. We already fueled our own trucks and bombed our own ammo in the field.
Driving trucks and fueling equipment is a generic task, no reason not to cross train and have people know how to operate the bowser.

Why is a MBdr RSS staff is the first question?

Every reserve unit has RSS staff, usually it’s a WO, a Captain, and a MCpl / MBdr in the transport shop. I don’t know if you didn’t experience that, but it’s certainly the norm now.

What type of exercise was it? Did they have the proper equipment/ ammo? Did they change the scope of the ex by going from live fire to dry ex? Was the ex during the extreme cold snap?

Is a cold snap a reason to not train ? I would be stunned if it was a rapid change given the time lines required. Quite simply a bunch of soldiers decided to not show up, these things have a way of compounding themselves. Until that cannot happen, there is no reason to invest in the reserves. It is an unreliable force generator and an incapable for employer. Buying shiny new toys may attract a few more people, but they can show up or not show up at their leisure and thus.. unreliable.

To many questions to know why only 5 showed up to a unit exercise out of 50.

2.5hrs to Suffield and 4.5hrs to Wainwright. Equipment base out of Suffield, hop on a bus and go train.

4.5 hrs x 2 is 9 hours. In a 34 class A day context how much is eaten up on the bus ?

How so? Fueling isnt a constant job. You can rotate people through.

Nah fueling is a constant job, you are prepping for the next replenishment once you e completed it. This is why these positions are set so you get good at doing it.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

When we were Ops Tasked as an artillery Battery, we had more vehicles than the service battalion, including an ambulance, line laying jeep, REME type service truck, 8x2 1/2 tons trucks, plus 3 ton truck, jeeps, panel van, 5/4 tons

 

[Kirkhill]

Any lawyer will tell you that paying in advance for services later is like having J. Wellington Wimpy say "I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today" . . . he never shows up on Tuesday.

I'm more a carrot and stick guy. Hold out the performance bonus to come after good performance. One already get's on the CAF on the hook when you subsidize education on obligatory terms of service (in my era there was the case of the 4 dentists who decided obligatory service after the DOTP wasn't their thing.)

I wouldn't want to go through all that rigamarole with thousands of impecunious privates.

Re-enlistment bonuses for a proven product, on the other hand, I could agree with. I'd couple that with the release of poor performers to open up the position for fresh blood.

Cash in hand. Then we can talk.

Retainers much?

 

[FJAG]

4.5 hrs x 2 is 9 hours. In a 34 class A day context how much is eaten up on the bus ?

On a 2.5 day weekend its assembly at the armouries on a Friday night at 1900 hrs and transport and deploy to the field at night. That's followed by 40 hrs in the field (including sleep) which terminates at 1600 hrs for maintenance and back on the bus by 18-1900 hrs for the trip home.

The average ARes year will only have 2 or 3 such exercises a year. The rest of the year is at the local armouries or in nearby areas. We used to do dry deployment training in the CNE grounds or at Cherry Beach in Toronto for three hours on a Saturday morning. You could get a good four deployments in during that period and it really set the muscle memory on coming into and out of action not to mention doing convoy packet drills in urban traffic.

 

[childs56]

Jerry can refilling is a viable DP system. No reason not to train that.

LOL, not much training required. Except put the POL spill mat down.

SVC Bns don’t conduct front line replenishment.

Neither did we when we drove back to the fuel pumps on base.

It’s not the learning to drive the truck, it’s the learning the plan the muscle movements in a larger scale.

It is more learning to drive a truck safely through different terrain and its capability , how to fix things as they break that are more important. The rest can and is practiced as you enter the field.

Every reserve unit has RSS staff, usually it’s a WO, a Captain, and a MCpl / MBdr in the transport shop. I don’t know if you didn’t experience that, but it’s certainly the norm now.

Never seen any one below the rank of Sgt as RSS, but times have changed.

Is a cold snap a reason to not train ?

if your vehicle wont start, or your having issues with your furnace or maybe you were not issued the proper gear.

I would be stunned if it was a rapid change given the time lines required.

?

Quite simply a bunch of soldiers decided to not show up,

are you 100% certain they decided to just not show up? I would say there were other factors why 90% of the Troops failed to show up for a ex. Especially if they committed to prior.

these things have a way of compounding themselves.

Could be lots of factors why.

Until that cannot happen, there is no reason to invest in the reserves.

That right there is why the Reserves will never be a well equipped force.

It is an unreliable force generator and an incapable for employer. Buying shiny new toys may attract a few more people, but they can show up or not show up at their leisure and thus.. unreliable.

Push come to shove they show up. Forest fires, Deployed ops over seas Reservists show up.

4.5 hrs x 2 is 9 hours. In a 34 class A day context how much is eaten up on the bus ?

No matter what most Reservists travel by truck, van or bus to the training area.
Maybe the Airforce could provide a couple Chinooks to fly them to the training area.

Nah fueling is a constant job, you are prepping for the next replenishment once you e completed it. This is why these positions are set so you get good at doing it.

Or we spend time filling jerry cans, emptying jerry cans that could other wise be spent doing other tasks.
Getting good at using the fuel truck is also a great skill to have. The same as running a Hiab to load and unload ammo pallets.

 

[markppcli]

LOL, not much training required. Except put the POL spill mat down.

Neither did we when we drove back to the fuel pumps on base.

Stop the inking at operator level, think at planning. The BK, BSM, Coy 2IC, SSMs ect plan that sustainment and how fuel gets delivered is part of that. Accounting for Jerrie’s vs fuel trucks and time adjustments for the DP is all part of that.

It is more learning to drive a truck safely through different terrain and its capability , how to fix things as they break that are more important. The rest can and is practiced as you enter the field.

See above. Both matter. Again you’re thinking about training only at the soldier level. Need to think about major muscle movements.

Never seen any one below the rank of Sgt as RSS, but times have changed.

It’s the norm.

if your vehicle wont start, or your having issues with your furnace or maybe you were not issued the proper gear.

?

are you 100% certain they decided to just not show up? I would say there were other factors why 90% of the Troops failed to show up for a ex. Especially if they committed to prior.

Could be lots of factors why.

All of which plays into the unreliable force generation / training cycle. Lots of factors can effect the attendance of training - that’s deeply problematic is your trying to force generate trained soldiers capable to doing a given mission.

That right there is why the Reserves will never be a well equipped force.

We agree. Unreliable force generators are not good investments. Fix that and they become good investments.

Push come to shove they show up. Forest fires, Deployed ops over seas Reservists show up.

In 2019 we waited 3 months for 39 CMBG to relieve us, in Vernon, with an under strength company that. Had soldiers that werent even OFP yet. I’d hardly call that a massive success. Yes reservist have stood up and made huge contributions, but once again, it’s a voluntary basis which means you can never count on it to happen.

No matter what most Reservists travel by truck, van or bus to the training area.

Maybe the Airforce could provide a couple Chinooks to fly them to the training area.

Or we spend time filling jerry cans, emptying jerry cans that could other wise be spent doing other tasks.
Getting good at using the fuel truck is also a great skill to have. The same as running a Hiab to load and unload ammo pallets.

Yes, so now that training is valuable, contradicts what you said before but i don’t generally expect your arguments to survive much analysis.