CAF Sexual Misconduct PR War- Swerved Into a Mess Discussion

No surprise and pretty much expected. The SMSRC seems to be picking up speed in its delivery and the upcoming zoom discussion on April 11 will be interesting. Curious if Lise Bourgon will be attending and ask for "more positive" stories from MST survivors to help recruiting efforts again...

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Milnet.ca Staff

 

[KevinB]

That seems like a healthy usage for a reserve mess. When else should they be used than when its members come to the unit?

Many messes back when I was a Reservist in the later 80’s had monthly parties, dinning in etc. Some of the better up kept and managed ones were rented for private functions outside of the PRes as well. Location also help many of them.

Why is a bartender being paid? Just have mess members do the bartending.

@daftandbarmy hit that one already - but member’s bartending is a bad idea.

Every mess I've known - at sea and ashore - gets used for a variety of extraneous purposes including training.

IMHO using a mess for training should be a last resort.
Very often folks will use the original purpose instead of training…

Experience does vary indeed.

This seems to be an issue more with the Army's management culture than with the messes themselves.

Honestly the location of the mess and the status of its upkeep is a much bigger issue than the management IMHO.

 

[TacticalTea]

Many messes back when I was a Reservist in the later 80’s had monthly parties, dinning in etc. Some of the better up kept and managed ones were rented for private functions outside of the PRes as well. Location also help many of them.


@daftandbarmy hit that one already - but member’s bartending is a bad idea.

IMHO using a mess for training should be a last resort.
Very often folks will use the original purpose instead of training…


Honestly the location of the mess and the status of its upkeep is a much bigger issue than the management IMHO.

I've never seen a civilian bartender at a NavRes mess. Maybe it's done in some places (Toronto?), maybe it's been done in the past. But from what I've seen it works well enough with uniformed folks.

I could imagine there are cultural differences that make it undesirable in the Army. But I'll continue to push back on the idea that it's wholly unworkable. Otherwise, how to explain that it is happening all over the country? And obviously, there are no civilian bartenders in shipboard messes.

@daftandbarmy so use the 24 year old subaltern instead
At the end of the day, we trust those same people with the deadliest equipment in the country, worth millions of taxpayers' dollars. But somehow not with a few hundred of NPF?

 

[MJP]

That seems like a healthy usage for a reserve mess. When else should they be used than when its members come to the unit?

Why is a bartender being paid? Just have mess members do the bartending.

Outside of field messes, ships messes (and a few other exceptions) are run under the auspices of CFMWS and their employees to include bar staff.
PSP-Policy-Manual chapter 9 para 8

8. Once approved, all oversight of Mess operations fall under the responsibility of
Personnel Support Programs (PSP). Each Regular Force Mess should be assigned a
centrally or locally funded PSP employee for oversight. The Primary reserve messes will
be guided by the Division PSP Advisor. The PSP employee with oversight of the mess
will work with their mess committee to answer questions, clarify policies or procedures,
oversee financial transactions and oversee and manage facility use.


Morale and Welfare Programs in the Canadian Forces - Public Support to Morale and Welfare Programs and Non-Public Property Manual

Casual or Part-Time Employment at Bases, Wings and Units
15. Subject to operations and training needs, a CO may authorize the casual or part-
time employment of any CF member, DND Public Service employee or person in a
Publicly Reimbursed position on duty time in support of NPP MW activities except:
a. as Mess or CANEX operating staff; or
b. at the point of sale in Specialty Interest facilities or Service Clubs

Gee, where do I start?

No one is 'Serving it Right' certified, 20 year old subalterns are awful at managing cash floats, no one knows how to manage the containers, and any number of other issues that shoots the risk profile of the organization into the stratosphere.

BLUF: irresponsible drunks serving other irresponsible drunks just never ends well. And Officers should be enjoying the mess they pay dues into, not serving other mess members.

Spitting facts...just silliness to force members to serve alcohol when we have organizations that should be overseeing it for us.

 

[daftandbarmy]

At the end of the day, we trust those same people with the deadliest equipment in the country, worth millions of taxpayers' dollars. But somehow not with a few hundred of NPF?

We train them to attack dug in positions.

We don't train them to manage money, bars or to be responsible for drunks.

We get what we train for, sadly, viz:

Army sergeant dead after fight​

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/army-sergeant-dead-after-fight-1.319191#:~:text=April%2030%2C%202002-,Members%20of%20a%20Victoria%2Dbased%20reserve%20army%20unit%20are%20mourning,Street%20Armoury%20on%20Saturday%20night.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Gee, where do I start?

No one is 'Serving it Right' certified, 20 year old subalterns are awful at managing cash floats, no one knows how to manage the containers, and any number of other issues that shoots the risk profile of the organization into the stratosphere.

BLUF: irresponsible drunks serving other irresponsible drunks just never ends well. And Officers should be enjoying the mess they pay dues into, not serving other mess members.

We do it on ships all the time.

 

[MJP]

We do it on ships all the time.

Yes but they are specifically excluded under PSP policy and the RCN trains their folks to deal with NPF/NPP properly. That doesn't exist outside of the RCN as a general rule.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Yes but they are specifically excluded under PSP policy and the RCN trains their folks to deal with NPF/NPP properly. That doesn't exist outside of the RCN as a general rule.

So a policy change and a some coursing is what's needed. Doesn't sound insurmountable.

 

[daftandbarmy]

So a policy change and a some coursing is what's needed. Doesn't sound insurmountable.

Did you suggest 'change related to Army Messes'?

Go for it. I'll be right over here in the meantime

 

[MJP]

So a policy change and a some coursing is what's needed. Doesn't sound insurmountable.

Yea not so simple, the RCN is excluded because they operate messes on ships where there would be no CFMWS employees which is why they are excluded. No one is going to jump at the opportunity to create more work for our people because of the way the RCN operates works for them on ships.

 

[OldSolduer]

We train them to attack dug in positions.

We don't train them to manage money, bars or to be responsible for drunks.

The whole purpose of an armed force is to do just that. Make life very miserable for your enemies

As for dealing with NPF, that is a dog's breakfast.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Yea not so simple, the RCN is excluded because they operate messes on ships where there would be no CFMWS employees which is why they are excluded. No one is going to jump at the opportunity to create more work for our people because of the way the RCN operates works for them on ships.

Not with that attitude they wont; that's for sure there Mr. Grumpy Pants.

How many ARes units are in locations without a base that's has CFMWS employees ?

My point is if if NCMs and Officers can be trusted to managed their own bars in one environment, I don't see why they can't in another.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Did you suggest 'change related to Army Messes'?

Go for it. I'll be right over here in the meantime

Not just change, but change inspired from the RCN! Heaven's above!

 

[MJP]

Not with that attitude they wont; that's for sure there Mr. Grumpy Pants.

How many ARes units are in locations without a base that's has CFMWS employees ?

My point is if if NCMs and Officers can be trusted to managed their own bars in one environment, I don't see why they can't in another.

Minus Alert (likely some other niche locations) CFMWS can hire for any locale in Canada the same way a small town bar gets staff. That is managed by whomever is hired to manage those messes (which is in the PSP Ops manual)

I get your point and understand what you are saying, my counter is policy and the fact we shouldn't be burdening our folks with more work when we have an org to do this for us

 

[Halifax Tar]

Minus Alert (likely some other niche locations) CFMWS can hire for any locale in Canada the same way a small town bar gets staff. That is managed by whomever is hired to manage those messes (which is in the PSP Ops manual)

I get your point and understand what you are saying, my counter is policy and the fact we shouldn't be burdening our folks with more work when we have an org to do this for us

Policy should be challenged. If it's good policy it will survive. If it's not change it. But don't hide behind it.

As for extra work, we have to pay our barmen on ships. Could be the same for ARes. The rate is set by a mess vote. And they get their tips.

I love bartending. To me it's not work, Its social and I'm getting paid for it. Great deal. We don't usually have a problem getting people to do the job.

 

[MJP]

Policy should be challenged. If it's good policy it will survive. If it's not change it. But don't hide behind it.

As for extra work, we have to pay our barmen on ships. Could be the same for ARes. The rate is set by a mess vote. And they get their tips.

I love bartending. To me it's not work, Its social and I'm getting paid for it. Great deal. We don't usually have a problem getting people to do the job.

Sure....I await the rush of folks challenging this policy

 

[Halifax Tar]

Sure....I await the rush of folks challenging this policy

I have no doubt the line up will be huge. Lol

 

[RangerRay]

When I was in the PRes in the 90s, a few of our JRs had the Serving it Right training and worked the bar. They were also the more responsible, less boozy members.

I think it was the same situation in the Sergeants’ and Officers’ messes.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Policy should be challenged. If it's good policy it will survive. If it's not change it. But don't hide behind it.

As for extra work, we have to pay our barmen on ships. Could be the same for ARes. The rate is set by a mess vote. And they get their tips.

I love bartending. To me it's not work, Its social and I'm getting paid for it. Great deal. We don't usually have a problem getting people to do the job.

I didn't get paid to bartend. They made all the JOs bartend on board my Ship. We were all supposed to get smartserve (never happened). I said I wasn't paying for it and they could pay for it if they wanted me to have it.

I absolutely didn't give a shit how much people drank. I wasn't going to let them kill themselves but if they wanted to get piss tanked, they were free to do so as they were Adults. Put more than a few people to bed in their racks

If they acted like idiots, they could suffer the consequences.

I also sailed during COVID, they couldn't fly anyone home even if they drank too much so people were threatened with no shore time if they acted up. Given the limited opportunities ashore, it had an effect and everyone behaved themselves.... mostly

 

[Kilted]

That seems like a healthy usage for a reserve mess. When else should they be used than when its members come to the unit?

Why is a bartender being paid? Just have mess members do the bartending.

Every mess I've known - at sea and ashore - gets used for a variety of extraneous purposes including training.

Experience does vary indeed.

This seems to be an issue more with the Army's management culture than with the messes themselves.

That can change unit to unit. Some units are very strict about the mess only being used as a mess. I've also seen multiple purpose rooms, although that was only one unit, and they were also the unit who refused to remove their headdress in someone else's mess because "it's not my mess."

 

[daftandbarmy]

That can change unit to unit. Some units are very strict about the mess only being used as a mess. I've also seen multiple purpose rooms, although that was only one unit, and they were also the unit who refused to remove their headdress in someone else's mess because "it's not my mess."