Canada's tanks

[suffolkowner]

KNDS is having a hard time finding personal for the maintenance of our Leopards. The military doesn’t have enough personal to maintain them and deploy at the same time either a maintenance course is 12 weeks for 8 students. Not sure what the correct answer is but introducing a complete new platform isn’t the solution.

KNDS personnel are civilians? Pay them more, simple

There are lots of reasons to dump the leopard including OEM support which hasnt been there in the past. Fleet consolidation. Fleet ELE costs. The most important is making daddy happy

 

[Maxman1]

And make the logistical nightmare even worse, how do you think maintaining a different platform is possible. So sending the A4s to Ukraine , then move 15 A6MC2 to Latvia, upgrade and R&O the 19 A4Ms. This would leave only 4 A6MC2 to train a Sqn of personal every 6 months.

I didn't say operate a mixed fleet, what I was thinking was donating  all of the Leopard 2s, not just the 2A4s. And buy a single fleet of M1s.

Our tanks are basically end of life at this point, and OEM support and replacements have been virtually nonexistent.

 

[Maxman1]

As of yet there is not a lot to suggest that we-Canada/Liberals/Trudeau are treating any of this seriously. On the other hand we do have orders and plans for P8's/AEW/new subs

Not sure how much of tbat was their initiative and how much was pressure from other governments. Remember, we were worried they would pick Bombardier's shiny brochure over the P-8.

 

[lotech]

I didn't say operate a mixed fleet, what I was thinking was donating  all of the Leopard 2s, not just the 2A4s. And buy a single fleet of M1s.

Our tanks are basically end of life at this point, and OEM support and replacements have been virtually nonexistent.

The A6M are going through an R&O and turret upgrade, the A4Ms are going through a R&O in Montreal, same with the A4s. There is OEM support in Montreal, also in Latvia. KMW is doing the A6MC2 upgrade in NB. KNDS with Rhienmettel is running the maintenance facility in Edmonton, to me that is OEM support

 

[suffolkowner]

Not sure how much of tbat was their initiative and how much was pressure from other governments. Remember, we were worried they would pick Bombardier's shiny brochure over the P-8.

I think the worry about Bombardier might have been exaggerated a bit but it would be interesting to know for sure. Pressure from others may get the minimal investments that we need sad as that is

 

[Maxman1]

The A6M are going through an R&O and turret upgrade, the A4Ms are going through a R&O in Montreal, same with the A4s. There is OEM support in Montreal, also in Latvia. KMW is doing the A6MC2 upgrade in NB. KNDS with Rhienmettel is running the maintenance facility in Edmonton, to me that is OEM support

That still leaves us with 74 tanks of all types and no way to acquire more; Rheinmettal hasn't built new hulls in years. And the hulls are long in the tooth.

 

[Maxman1]

I think the worry about Bombardier might have been exaggerated a bit but it would be interesting to know for sure. Pressure from others may get the minimal investments that we need sad as that is

At the end of the day, the P-8 is a mature, proven design currently in production, and the suggestion by Bombardier is not.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

That still leaves us with 74 tanks of all types and no way to acquire more; Rheinmettal hasn't built new hulls in years. And the hulls are long in the tooth.

I think you are incorrect on that, it appears they are making new hulls for the A8 version.

 

[suffolkowner]

At the end of the day, the P-8 is a mature, proven design currently in production, and the suggestion by Bombardier is not.

all true but what evidence is there that the Bombardier option was ever considered?

 

[suffolkowner]

The A6M are going through an R&O and turret upgrade, the A4Ms are going through a R&O in Montreal, same with the A4s. There is OEM support in Montreal, also in Latvia. KMW is doing the A6MC2 upgrade in NB. KNDS with Rhienmettel is running the maintenance facility in Edmonton, to me that is OEM support

is there a parts guarantee with that?

I think you are incorrect on that, it appears they are making new hulls for the A8 version.

i think so too but maybe a bit of a wait if we wanted to get in line

 

[Colin Parkinson]

i think so too but maybe a bit of a wait if we wanted to get in line

Yea it looks like a long line up ahead of us.

 

[lotech]

is there a parts guarantee with that?

i think so too but maybe a bit of a wait if we wanted to get in line

To my knowledge there is something in place for spare parts. Chassis parts aren’t really a problem, turret on the other hand is.

 

[Maxman1]

all true but what evidence is there that the Bombardier option was ever considered?

Not sure, that might have been speculation. The Aurora replacement thread might have something more concrete.

 

[OldSolduer]

That still leaves us with 74 tanks of all types and no way to acquire more; Rheinmettal hasn't built new hulls in years. And the hulls are long in the tooth.

I am not a tanker BUT my pea brain is telling me that the Leo is a fine tank - but its made in Germany. If Germany were next door then keep the Leo.
BUT the USA is our neighbor.....so why don't we buy a shit ton of Abrams? tankers please tell me why I am wrong...

 

[Maxman1]

I am not a tanker BUT my pea brain is telling me that the Leo is a fine tank - but its made in Germany. If Germany were next door then keep the Leo.
BUT the USA is our neighbor.....so why don't we buy a shit ton of Abrams? tankers please tell me why I am wrong...

Not a tanker, either, but I don't see any flaws there.

Multiple European countries picked the Abrams (Romania recently chose it over the Leopard 2, Poland operates a mind breaking mixed fleet). Australia is about as far from America as it from Germany, but chose the Abrams over the Leopard 2 (and recently ordered new M1A2 SEPv3 to replace their older M1A1s, which will be donated to Ukraine).

 

[FJAG]

Not sure what the correct answer is but introducing a complete new platform isn’t the solution.

There's a big plant in Lima Ohio, just a little down from Detroit. That has all the tools and labour one needs to keep M1s spiffy - if one had the bucks and inclination.

My guess is that with Canada not even close to 2% we can't expect a deal from the US to lease us a couple of hundred M1s from storage for a buck if we donated Leos (as is) to Ukraine and replace our fleet with new AbramsX in due course.

Sadly, Canada has made, and continues to make, its bed. But . . . a boy can dream.

 

[OldSolduer]

Sadly, Canada has made, and continues to make, its bed. But . . . a boy can dream.

ANd it will stay that way - until another major war comes along and the public will say "what do you mean unprepared?"

 

[dangerboy]

Also, would GDLS even bother putting in a bid for a Canadian tank contract, knowing it would be for a small number of tanks and that we would most likely be asking for specific Canadian requirements in the Statement of Works?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Better ask for more fuel bowsers while your at it. Even with the APU's the fuel consumption is likley to be higher.

 

[suffolkowner]

Better ask for more fuel bowsers while your at it. Even with the APU's the fuel consumption is likley to be higher.

how many do we have now?