Canadian Forces service members living in cars, unable to afford groceries

[Colin Parkinson]

Ah yes, but those conversations (usually) lead to a nice DAOD 5019-8 Private Debts remedial measure, potential loss of security clearance, and a bunch of other nasty career implications that, frankly, make the situation worse.

Especially when the Private Debts incurred are due to the CoC posting/retaining someone in financial distress to a high CoL area with little to no support:

-There are almost no Single Quarters anymore at most bases that aren't student/transient, and if there are, there aren't nearly enough of them.

-The Pri 1 wait list for PMQs in Kingston is 81 pers long. They have 13 potential vacancies, and are only renovating 3 this year. They are not rebuilding the 200 or so units torn down in the 2010s on the Vimy side, because money.

-CFHD does very little. Especially in the housing market as it is.

So given the options are a "go to SISIP, sign your RW, and do better next time" conversation or suffering through car living.... guess which one sees a better outcome in Cpl Bloggins' mind....

If only there was a solution

 

[PMedMoe]

No where in my post did I praise CFHA.

Flip side of the coin; if there was no housing crisis and DND and CFHA were maintaining empty buildings, everyone would be bitching about them wasting money.

 

[Kirkhill]

If only there was a solution

Looks like a practical reception centre.

 

[Furniture]

No where in my post did I praise CFHA.

Flip side of the coin; if there was no housing crisis and DND and CFHA were maintaining empty buildings, everyone would be bitching about them wasting money.

I doubt it, back when CFHA was getting rid of Q's in Cold Lake back around '03 people were commenting that it was a bad idea to get rid of them. It was an even worse idea to get rid them, and not replace the oldest buildings with new builds.

The only people I can remember who praised CFHA and the CAF getting rid of housing were people who consistently did well on selling their house during postings.

 

[brihard]

I doubt it, back when CFHA was getting rid of Q's in Cold Lake back around '03 people were commenting that it was a bad idea to get rid of them. It was an even worse ideas to get rid them, and not replace the oldest buildings with new builds.

The only people I can remember who praised CFHA and the CAF getting rid of housing were people who consistently did well on selling their house during postings.

A good friend and colleague of mine is married to a CAF officer who’s just kept getting posted at the right time. I think they’re up to a portfolio of five residential properties now.

 

[Quirky]

If only there was a solution

Difference is, these companies are in the business of making money, the results are instant. Where is the responsibility and accountability for the CAF being combat ineffective? During elections?

 

[Furniture]

A good friend and colleague of mine is married to a CAF officer who’s just kept getting posted at the right time. I think they’re up to a portfolio of five residential properties now.

It happened to a few people, they hit the right locations at the right times and made out like bandits. Some of them acknowledge that luck was a significant part of their success, others think everyone else is lazy and stupid.

 

[lenaitch]

Probably, but it’s still a net win for the member. Member gets a housing subsidy that makes it possible to afford decent accommodations. Sure, CRA might hit them for 25% of that subsidy in taxes, but the member still comes out ahead, and with a roof.

If we pretend for a minute - and I’m sorry guys, but just indulge my fantasy here - that a reasonably staffed CAF is important to Canada’s national security and international relations, then it follows that recruiting and retention are of strategic importance. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again; housing our troops is more than just a housing question. Sure, call it a taxable benefit- but get some roofs up for our troops to live under, clean, healthy, and suitable to varying stages of their lives. Otherwise, enjoy being on the wrong side of labour mobility once they spend a few years in and gain marketable skills.

Absolutely. It would take a government to change legislation under the Income Tax Act. Members living wherever they are sent do so at the behest of their employer.

What is market value though?

My 2 bedroom PMQ once upon a time came with no appliances, no garage, no fence and a basement that leaked each spring.

A 2 bedroom town home that I rented immediately after that PMQ had a garage, appliances, a fenced yard space (tiny yes but fenced) and a basement that did not leak.

Both were very very close in monthly rent.

It sounds like your RHU was priced about market value so there likely would be no hit on the T4.

I have no clue how government entities determine it, or how the CRA interpret it. Back in the day in northern Ontario, government housing in many communities was limited but available. Places would run around $75-$150 a month. A super deal since housing of any kind was at a premium in many places and most members were only there for a few years. When government policy changed, rents went to the $700-$800 range (in the '80s) because that's what limited rents in these places were going for. Not surprisingly, many members ceased voluntarily posting to these places, and the houses sat unused, and most were eventually sold. Most governments don't want to be a landlord for their employees.

If only there was a solution

No doubt the missus and kids would love it. It must be a hoot during the wet season.

 

[Kirkhill]

The Real Reason Marriage is on the Decline Across Canada

Canada is seeing a long-term decline in marriage rates, but the age-old institution still plays a valuable—and ever-evolving—role.

www.readersdigest.ca

"If the army wanted you to have a wife they would have issued one."
"...single men in barracks don't grow into plaster saints."
"Captains may marry. Majors must marry. Lieutenants can't marry."

Short term engagements of young singles, male and female, versus long term contracts for careerists.

If everything is considered from the perspective of the careerist (and I am not using the term perjoratively) then are there opportunities being missed with the short term member?

That camp may not be suitable for a member with a family but how about for a single member undergoing 3 months training?

 

[PMedMoe]

Nearly 4,500 Canadian Armed Forces members, families waiting for military housing - article dated 03 Oct 2022

 

[markppcli]

When is the last time a new large housing project was completed- like barracks? If you sign on drawings today it takes 6 years to complete minor builds on average with the current timelines in government.

I imagine anything you ask for today you’ll be a decade out from moving furniture into it

At the risk of detracting from an issue, Shilo built about 10 new duplex’s just this year and has two fairly new apartment buildings on base as well.

 

[Booter]

At the risk of detracting from an issue, Shilo built about 10 new duplex’s just this year and has two fairly new apartment buildings on base as well.

when we re the drawings signed off and placed in the queue?

it’s about 8 or 9 years for federal builds when I was last in a meeting on it. Which isn’t housing for the Canadian forces- and there are ways to get ahead of that number but as long as the mentality is “not enough housing” and then “too much housing” as soon as there are vacant units, it seems possible that when combined with the way I understand projects, that by the time you get approval and build something- the needle has shifted from “not enough” to “too much” if we re talking decade increments.

That seems on a super low analysis to be a symptom of worrying about profits over readiness as empty houses cost money.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Though as I recall, even back in the 80's when house prices were very little there, the PMQ's in Pet had very low vacancy.
I doubt there has ever been "too many houses" on a base.......except for those who don't want houses there.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Though as I recall, even back in the 80's when house prices were very little there, the PMQ's in Pet had very low vacancy.
I doubt there has ever been "too many houses" on a base.......except for those who don't want houses there.

Same in Halifax. The Houses were always full, but always room in the apartments the two times I used them.

Now, not so much.

 

[markppcli]

when we re the drawings signed off and placed in the queue?

it’s about 8 or 9 years for federal builds when I was last in a meeting on it. Which isn’t housing for the Canadian forces- and there are ways to get ahead of that number but as long as the mentality is “not enough housing” and then “too much housing” as soon as there are vacant units, it seems possible that when combined with the way I understand projects, that by the time you get approval and build something- the needle has shifted from “not enough” to “too much” if we re talking decade increments.

That seems on a super low analysis to be a symptom of worrying about profits over readiness as empty houses cost money.

I idea, I just live beside them

 

[QV]

when we re the drawings signed off and placed in the queue?

it’s about 8 or 9 years for federal builds when I was last in a meeting on it. Which isn’t housing for the Canadian forces- and there are ways to get ahead of that number but as long as the mentality is “not enough housing” and then “too much housing” as soon as there are vacant units, it seems possible that when combined with the way I understand projects, that by the time you get approval and build something- the needle has shifted from “not enough” to “too much” if we re talking decade increments.

That seems on a super low analysis to be a symptom of worrying about profits over readiness as empty houses cost money.

Time lines depends on cost.

 

[Booter]

QV I’ve run projects from half a mil to tens of millions, I know that- how long from signing a housing drawing for barracks to them being completed is important to the conversation. Like if shilo built barracks in two years from identifying, to drawing, to moving furniture in- it’s a different talk then a forecasted need from 2010 just completed. I can say that the average is like I said- 8 or 9 years elsewhere. I saw 500 000 emergency funding for two trailers done in two years though as well with political pressure.

If the military is in line with other federal building making agencies I assume it’s similar timelines. I’ve done three agencies- and it’s all similar, I’m sure there are exceptions to how they group things for the military if they need to- but I’m curious. Because if we are discussing this today for build in 2030s it isn’t really fruitful if we don t address how an organization which is smaller than it was in the mid-nineties wound up with not enough housing.

 

[QV]

If on average it's 8-9 years in another government department, it's probably 10-12 in DND for same size/scope project - says my cynical side.

But yes I get what you're saying, just ignore me.

 

[Booter]

If on average it's 8-9 years in another government department, it's probably 10-12 in DND for same size/scope project - says my cynical side.

But yes I get what you're saying, just ignore me.

I feel like I’m the one that should be ignored lol

 

[MilEME09]

When is the last time a new large housing project was completed- like barracks? If you sign on drawings today it takes 6 years to complete minor builds on average with the current timelines in government.

I imagine anything you ask for today you’ll be a decade out from moving furniture into it

Borden has a new barracks being completed this fall. Hopefully occupied now, 5 stories, 3 wings, very large. But we need a lot more, heck build those tiny homes from sea containers, have a communal storage area for kit. Could probably build a lot of units quickly. Prefab and ship them onto bases to install.