Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ

[AirDet]

Those are the same lashings we use. The chocks are neat... they are adjustable. We use heavy rubber chocks.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Wonder if RCN will miss a boat that USN might catch (nice photos)--excerpts from lengthy piece:

We spent 3 days on a top FFG(X) contender. Here’s what you need to know.

ABOARD THE ITALIAN FREMM ALPINO, Atlantic Ocean – The Italian Navy’s anti-submarine warfare FREMM Alpino is in the United States on a tour of the East Coast.

The Fincantieri-built warship is a contender for the U.S. Navy’s next-generation Frigate, the FFG(X), and the Alpino is on this side of the Atlantic giving the service a look at what the hull can do.

The Alpino is one of 10 FREMM destined to make up a significant portion of the Italian Navy’s surface fleet – four ASW versions like Alpino and six general purpose FREMM that replaces the variable-depth sonar array with a rigid-hull inflatable boat.

Defense News spent three days on board Alpino. Here is everything you need to know about FREMM.

Crucial Details

Length: 167 meters (547 feet, just 20 feet shorter than a Ticonderoga-class cruiser)

Width: 16 meters (52 feet)

Displacement: 6,500 tons

Top speed: 27 knots

Range: 6,000 nautical miles. During normal operations – not zipping around at 25 knots – you can get about two percent fuel consumption per day.

Propulsion: A combined diesel and gas system system of four diesel generators providing power to two electric motors that turn the twin shafts for up to 15 knots. Above 15 knots there is a single LM2500 gas turbine forward of the combining gear. You need two generators to run the screws or just the LM2500. All the main components can be switched out without cutting a hole in the ship.

The ship also has an Auxiliary Propulsion Unit that can spin 360-degress, has a top speed of seven kts, and can be used to do some nifty maneuvers. Getting underway from Norfolk, the Alpino pulled away from the pier without tugs, which is a breeze with the APU.

Power capacity: Four 2,1-megawatt diesel generators

Crew size: 167, but it can hold accommodate up to 200.

Warfighting

Missions: Primary mission is anti-submarine warfare. Capable of point-defense anti-air warfare, electronic warfare, anti-surface warfare and special operation insertion.

Design: The ship is largely enclosed with plenty of angles to reduce the radar cross-section...

Damage Control

The damage control system is highly sophisticated...

Berthings and Staterooms

Plush.

The crew lives in staterooms, the largest of which are two six-person staterooms for (of course) the Marines and air detachment. Most are four-person staterooms. One-person staterooms are for the embarked admiral, the captain, the executive officer, and the department heads. The rest of the officers are in two and four-person staterooms. The beds are the same throughout the ship. In the two-person staterooms the racks the fold out from the wall, with the bottom rack folding out into a couch. In the four-person staterooms the racks are fixed. Each stateroom has an identical private bathroom, officer and enlisted.

The Alpino comes equipped with no fewer than five espresso machines, but sailors hoping the Navy will buy Italian espresso machines shouldn’t hold their breath.

...
Takeaways

The ship is pretty darn cool: It’s built to fight and has plenty of power to go around. An AEGIS version of the FREMM being pitched by Fincantieri has an even greater power capacity [emphasis added--probably could do missile defence, which capability RCN CSC should have]...

All told, this is a survivable, purpose-built ship and its plainly evident after three days on board why the Navy put it in the final five for its FFG(X) program.

https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2018/05/30/we-spent-3-days-on-a-top-ffgx-contender-heres-what-you-need-to-know/

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Czech_pivo]

Interesting article re the UK Type 26.


http://thechronicleherald.ca/business/1574437-u.k.-willing-to-share-shipbuilding-info-with-canada

 

[MarkOttawa]

Note BAE Systems Type 26 not in final five for USN FFG(X) new frigates competition--Navantia design only one also in RCN CSC fight:
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/us-navy-frigate-program-moves-forward-with-five-designs-shortlisted/

Mark
Ottawa

 

[jmt18325]

Does our program even have the same requirements as theirs?  The reality is the 3 finalist designs all seem to bring significant capability to the table for Canada.

 

[MarkOttawa]

BAE Systems Type 26 was put forward for USN's FFG(X) but looks like didn't make cut for final five:

BAE joins race for new US frigate with its Type 26 vessel

BAE Systems is officially gunning for the U.S. Navy’s new frigate program with its new Type 26 frigate now in production in the U.K.

Company officials confirmed Thursday it had responded to the U.S. Navy’s request for information and were in talks with unspecified companies in the states about how it would build the ship for the FFG(X) program, according to a BAE official who spoke on background to discuss early developments.

“In terms of the technical requirements, its a good fit. ... We responded to the RFI and we’re confident its a pretty good fit,” the official said.

The Type 26, designed primarily as an anti-submarine ship, is competing hard for both the Canadian and Australian frigate programs. Anti-submarine warfare is a key requirement for FFG(X), which BAE thinks gives its frigate an edge. The design also incorporates a large mission bay that can be used as flex space for mission modules...
https://www.defensenews.com/digital-show-dailies/dsei/2017/09/14/bae-is-in-the-race-for-the-the-us-ffgx-with-its-type-26-frigate/

In RAN competition Type 26 up against Fincantieri FREMM and a Navantia (Spain) design:https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/australian-sea-5000-competition-climax-can-the-type-26-frigate-achieve-export-success/

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Uzlu]

Note BAE Systems Type 26 not in final five for USN FFG(X) new frigates competition--Navantia design only one also in RCN CSC fight

The Type 26 is out, because it is too expensive for the Americans.  The Americans can pay a bit more than the price of a Type 26 and buy an Arleigh Burke Flight III.  The Americans want a frigate.  The Type 26 is more like a light destroyer than a frigate like an Oliver Hazard Perry.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Based on the article below, they want a low end frigate, something I would think the FREMM is not:

https://www.google.ca/amp/amp.timeinc.net/thedrive/the-war-zone/16035/navys-rationale-for-swatting-down-perry-class-frigate-reactivation-doesnt-float%3fsource=dam

 

[Uzlu]

Based on the article below, they want a low end frigate, something I would think the FREMM is not

They are definitely more interested in a low-end frigate rather than a high-end frigate that can come close to a destroyer.

While the Type 26 incorporates or can adapt to virtually all the capabilities outlined in July’s RFI, including 36 vertical launching system cells and Mark 41 VLS launchers, the ship might be too rich for the Navy’s blood, according to Bryan Clark, an analyst with the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments and a former aid to former Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Jon Greenert.

“I think they‘re leaning to something with a little less capability that will be a bit more economical,” Clark said.

The British Royal Navy recently inked a deal for the first three Type 26 frigates worth £3.7 billion (U.S. $4.9 billion). That cost averages to just a little less than an Arleigh Burke-class destroyer, though that’s not a perfect metric because the costs would be different for a U.S. version.

Still, the Navy isn’t looking to buy a ship that compete’s [sic] for missions with the destroyer, said Rear Adm. Ron Boxall in an exclusive interview with Defense News in July.

“We don’t want the ship to be so big that it competes with the destroyer. We want this to be part of the high-low mix,” Boxall said. “So ensuring we get those capabilities at the best value is important.”

https://www.defensenews.com/digital-show-dailies/dsei/2017/09/14/bae-is-in-the-race-for-the-the-us-ffgx-with-its-type-26-frigate/

 

[MarkOttawa]

Meanwhile in Canadian never never land: "To the right, slow march!":

New acquisition procedure further delays CSC decision

A new naval acquisition procedure meant to ensure more complete bidder proposals will delay a planned decision on the Royal Canadian Navy’s (RCN) future warship for another three months, the Canadian government has said.

Public Services and Procurement Canada (PSPC) originally planned on announcing a winning bid for the Canadian Surface Combatant (CSC) programme in the second quarter of 2018, but the PSPC now expects this decision to be made later in the year.

The delay is a result of complications stemming from an amendment to the request for proposals (RFP) that requires greater feedback between potential bidders and the government, and adds a new acquisition wrinkle the PSPC could use for other future programmes.
http://www.janes.com/article/80471/new-acquisition-procedure-further-delays-csc-decision

Sigh.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Underway]

Based on the article below, they want a low end frigate, something I would think the FREMM is not:

https://www.google.ca/amp/amp.timeinc.net/thedrive/the-war-zone/16035/navys-rationale-for-swatting-down-perry-class-frigate-reactivation-doesnt-float%3fsource=dam

FREMM is really, ideally a frigate either ASW or GP.  You can make it higher end if you like but there is a reason the Italians and French use the Orizzonte and Horizon classes for their AAW ships.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Agreed, but FREMM still appears to be more ship than they want. This is not, as far as I can tell, displacing the LCS program (yet). I have to wonder if the 330's as  currently updated  would fit the bill, or would it still be too much ship.

 

[Underway]

It's a US program.  If it doesn't develop technology and mission creep I'll be completely shocked (a la Pentagon Wars).  There will be a strong push from some sectors of the gov't and the USN to make it fancy and expensive instead of the dirty and cheap that they want.  I wouldn't be surprised of an LCS repeat just on a larger hull.  The US just can't help themselves.

 

[FSTO]

A former USN Cdr weighs in on the FREMM.

http://cdrsalamander.blogspot.com/2018/05/three-days-of-fremm.html
Regulars here know I've been on Team-FREMM for years and have been as happy as a bee to see it on our Top-5 list for FFG-(X) replacement.

Our friend David Larter at DefenseNews give you a great overview of the contender. Read the whole thing, but here are the juicy bits;
The Fincantieri-built warship is a contender for the U.S. Navy’s next-generation frigate, the FFG(X), and the Alpino is on this side of the Atlantic giving the service a look at what the hull can do.

The Alpino is one of 10 FREMM destined to make up a significant portion of the Italian Navy’s surface fleet – four ASW versions like Alpino and six general purpose FREMM that replaces the variable-depth sonar array with a rigid-hull inflatable boat.

Defense News spent three days on board Alpino. Here is everything you need to know about FREMM.

Crucial Details

Length: 167 meters (547 feet, just 20 feet shorter than a Ticonderoga-class cruiser)

Width: 16 meters (52 feet)

Displacement: 6,500 tons

Top speed: 27 knots

Range: 6,000 nautical miles. During normal operations – not zipping around at 25 knots – you can get about two percent fuel consumption per day.

Propulsion: A combined diesel and gas system system of four diesel generators providing power to two electric motors that turn the twin shafts for up to 15 knots. Above 15 knots there is a single LM2500 gas turbine forward of the combining gear. You need two generators to run the screws or just the LM2500. All the main components can be switched out without cutting a hole in the ship.

The ship also has an Auxiliary Propulsion Unit that can spin 360-degress, has a top speed of seven kts, and can be used to do some nifty maneuvers. Getting underway from Norfolk, the Alpino pulled away from the pier without tugs, which is a breeze with the APU.

Power capacity: Four 2,1-megawatt diesel generators

Crew size: 167, but it can hold accommodate up to 200.

Warfighting

Missions: Primary mission is anti-submarine warfare. Capable of point-defense anti-air warfare, electronic warfare, anti-surface warfare and special operation insertion.

Design: The ship is largely enclosed with plenty of angles to reduce the radar cross-section.

Armaments: Two Oto-Breda 76mm Guns; 16-cell vertical launch; two three-tube torpedo launchers positioned both port and starboard; two Oto-Breda 25mm machine guns; two NH-90 helicopters.

Sensors: Primary sensors are the THALES variable-depth sonar, known as the CAPTAS-4, a towed array sonar and a hull-mounted sonar. The VDS deploys from a pneumatically controlled door and ramp system that in the general purpose FREMM is used for a 13-meter RHIB for special operations forces.

The ship is also equipped with an air search radar, surface search radar, an electronic warfare system, and commercial radars. The helo is strapped with FLIR, a surface-search radar, a dipping sonar, and Link 11.

Payloads: MU90 Torpedoes; Aster surface-to-air missiles; Teseo surface-to-surface missile; Milas anti-ship missile and anti-submarine missile, and Marte missile on the helo.
Of note, you can also upgun, converting the forward 76mm to a 5" mount.

The following are below the fold, but one could argue the most important things the ship brings;
The damage control system is highly sophisticated.

The ship is equipped with an incredible camera system that exists almost everywhere except the living spaces and spaces like central control that are constantly manned. If fire or flooding is detected in any space, a live video feed will automatically pull up on the screen of the damage control system monitors.

Fire boundaries on the main deck can be set automatically from central control with the flip of a switch, which releases the magnetized door stops, and the damage control officer can see when anyone breaks fire boundaries (he will let you know).

The primary fire system is highly pressurized water sprinkler system that sprays atomized demineralized water that decouples the fire from its fuel source. About a gallon of water is sufficient to handle most spaces, including main-space fires and the demineralized water protects electronics.
As bridge watchkeeping is in the news;
The bridge is state-of-the-art but in a way that makes your job easier, not in the way that saves people by lumping too many functions in one watchstander.
...
The visuals on the bridge are fantastic, with 180-degrees plus visible without stepping outside on the bridge wings.
Living conditions? Of course;
The crew lives in staterooms, the largest of which are two six-person staterooms for (of course) the Marines and air detachment. Most are four-person staterooms. One-person staterooms are for the embarked admiral, the captain, the executive officer, and the department heads. The rest of the officers are in two and four-person staterooms. The beds are the same throughout the ship. In the two-person staterooms the racks the fold out from the wall, with the bottom rack folding out into a couch. In the four-person staterooms the racks are fixed. Each stateroom has an identical private bathroom, officer and enlisted.
Nothing is perfect - but it is workable;
There are a couple of things on this version of the FREMM that would make the U.S. Navy uncomfortable in terms of design.

FREMM has only a single LM2500 and the redundancy-obsessed NAVSEA would likely want two. The AEGIS version of the FREMM being pitched by Finacantieri has two independent propulsion systems, one for each shaft, instead of two motors and one LM2500.
Here is the best thing about the FREMM; it is underway. The kinks are worked out. It does not have the original sins of either LCS class. It's not a mini-Burke.

A side issue, but a real one, is that we are asking our allies to adopt the F-35. We should return the favor and let them know that, yes, we are mature enough to buy someone else's design if it is this good.

Time to cut steel.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Meanwhile in Canadian never never land: "To the right, slow march!":

Sigh.

Mark
Ottawa

If this is correct, then the 18 month gap that’s been reported when the AOPS is supposedly set to be completed and the CSC starts will potentially grow to be 21-24 months.....That’s enough time to build out numbers 7 & 8 on the AOPS or don’t build more than the 5 or 6 originally agreed upon and  layoff the workers for two years.....

 

[Cloud Cover]

A former USN Cdr weighs in on the FREMM.

http://cdrsalamander.blogspot.com/2018/05/three-days-of-fremm.html
Regulars here know I've been on Team-FREMM for years and have been as happy as a bee to see it on our Top-5 list for FFG-(X) replacement.

Our friend David Larter at DefenseNews give you a great overview of the contender. Read the whole thing, but here are the juicy bits;
The Fincantieri-built warship is a contender for the U.S. Navy’s next-generation frigate, the FFG(X), and the Alpino is on this side of the Atlantic giving the service a look at what the hull can do.

The Alpino is one of 10 FREMM destined to make up a significant portion of the Italian Navy’s surface fleet – four ASW versions like Alpino and six general purpose FREMM that replaces the variable-depth sonar array with a rigid-hull inflatable boat.

Defense News spent three days on board Alpino. Here is everything you need to know about FREMM.

Crucial Details

Length: 167 meters (547 feet, just 20 feet shorter than a Ticonderoga-class cruiser)

Width: 16 meters (52 feet)

Displacement: 6,500 tons

Top speed: 27 knots

Range: 6,000 nautical miles. During normal operations – not zipping around at 25 knots – you can get about two percent fuel consumption per day.

Propulsion: A combined diesel and gas system system of four diesel generators providing power to two electric motors that turn the twin shafts for up to 15 knots. Above 15 knots there is a single LM2500 gas turbine forward of the combining gear. You need two generators to run the screws or just the LM2500. All the main components can be switched out without cutting a hole in the ship.

The ship also has an Auxiliary Propulsion Unit that can spin 360-degress, has a top speed of seven kts, and can be used to do some nifty maneuvers. Getting underway from Norfolk, the Alpino pulled away from the pier without tugs, which is a breeze with the APU.

Power capacity: Four 2,1-megawatt diesel generators

Crew size: 167, but it can hold accommodate up to 200.

Warfighting

Missions: Primary mission is anti-submarine warfare. Capable of point-defense anti-air warfare, electronic warfare, anti-surface warfare and special operation insertion.

Design: The ship is largely enclosed with plenty of angles to reduce the radar cross-section.

Armaments: Two Oto-Breda 76mm Guns; 16-cell vertical launch; two three-tube torpedo launchers positioned both port and starboard; two Oto-Breda 25mm machine guns; two NH-90 helicopters.

Sensors: Primary sensors are the THALES variable-depth sonar, known as the CAPTAS-4, a towed array sonar and a hull-mounted sonar. The VDS deploys from a pneumatically controlled door and ramp system that in the general purpose FREMM is used for a 13-meter RHIB for special operations forces.

The ship is also equipped with an air search radar, surface search radar, an electronic warfare system, and commercial radars. The helo is strapped with FLIR, a surface-search radar, a dipping sonar, and Link 11.

Payloads: MU90 Torpedoes; Aster surface-to-air missiles; Teseo surface-to-surface missile; Milas anti-ship missile and anti-submarine missile, and Marte missile on the helo.
Of note, you can also upgun, converting the forward 76mm to a 5" mount.

The following are below the fold, but one could argue the most important things the ship brings;
The damage control system is highly sophisticated.

The ship is equipped with an incredible camera system that exists almost everywhere except the living spaces and spaces like central control that are constantly manned. If fire or flooding is detected in any space, a live video feed will automatically pull up on the screen of the damage control system monitors.

Fire boundaries on the main deck can be set automatically from central control with the flip of a switch, which releases the magnetized door stops, and the damage control officer can see when anyone breaks fire boundaries (he will let you know).

The primary fire system is highly pressurized water sprinkler system that sprays atomized demineralized water that decouples the fire from its fuel source. About a gallon of water is sufficient to handle most spaces, including main-space fires and the demineralized water protects electronics.
As bridge watchkeeping is in the news;
The bridge is state-of-the-art but in a way that makes your job easier, not in the way that saves people by lumping too many functions in one watchstander.
...
The visuals on the bridge are fantastic, with 180-degrees plus visible without stepping outside on the bridge wings.
Living conditions? Of course;
The crew lives in staterooms, the largest of which are two six-person staterooms for (of course) the Marines and air detachment. Most are four-person staterooms. One-person staterooms are for the embarked admiral, the captain, the executive officer, and the department heads. The rest of the officers are in two and four-person staterooms. The beds are the same throughout the ship. In the two-person staterooms the racks the fold out from the wall, with the bottom rack folding out into a couch. In the four-person staterooms the racks are fixed. Each stateroom has an identical private bathroom, officer and enlisted.
Nothing is perfect - but it is workable;
There are a couple of things on this version of the FREMM that would make the U.S. Navy uncomfortable in terms of design.

FREMM has only a single LM2500 and the redundancy-obsessed NAVSEA would likely want two. The AEGIS version of the FREMM being pitched by Finacantieri has two independent propulsion systems, one for each shaft, instead of two motors and one LM2500.
Here is the best thing about the FREMM; it is underway. The kinks are worked out. It does not have the original sins of either LCS class. It's not a mini-Burke.

A side issue, but a real one, is that we are asking our allies to adopt the F-35. We should return the favor and let them know that, yes, we are mature enough to buy someone else's design if it is this good.

Time to cut steel.

The big take away for me is that the FFG(X) must be Aegis.  The Italians are proposing a modified FREMM to mee that requirement.
Interestingly, depend on who you talk to there, there will be 40-52 LCS regardless if this ship is built. None of which are Aegis.  The USN is moving away from a single combat system management platform and tailoring platforms to missions. These guys are not fooling around anymore.

And contrary to the article that I posted above, the next article suggests that we will not realistically see an AEGIS equipped frigate having its time wasted floating around the carribean or the coasts of South America looking for drug smugglers.

They are looking for a something with a "presence" to make a statement that is just shy of a land attack capable Arleigh Burje Flight III - heavier, general duty, show the flag, fuck off or die frigate that is not a destroyer (but not a type 26, which really could be s heavy destroyer if properly equipped and armed.) And I would note with emphasis the Electronic Warfare/Cyber Warfare requirement.
And, two helicopters! Very useful warship.
Somebody in USN shop planning has their shit together.

 

[Lumber]

Stop. You had me at "stateroom".

Although I agree, they need a more redundant propulsion system.

Also, why is it that 30,000 ton battleships went 30+ knots in 1942 but no one is making anything that goes more than 27 knots these days?

 

[Cloud Cover]

Sure what ever that means.  3 queen sized bunks for 6 marines? A bureau with a large vanity mirror and dressing table?

 

[Uzlu]

Also, why is it that 30,000 ton battleships went 30+ knots in 1942 but no one is making anything that goes more than 27 knots these days?

If I am not mistaken, the following classes of frigates, destroyers, and aircraft carriers are being built, and all are better than 27 knots.

Hobart
Type 052D destroyer
Type 055 destroyer
Project 17A frigate
Vikrant
Visakhapatnam
FREMM
Pattugliatori Polivalenti d'Altura
Admiral Gorshkov
Admiral Grigorovich
Arleigh Burke
Gerald R. Ford

 

[RDBZ]

Navanita Australia's website shows the apparent evolution in the design of its Aus Sea 5000 contender, which will likely be reflected in its bid for the CSC.

https://navantia.com.au/capabilities/f-5000/

The later, top most images, indicate that the structure behind the bridge will now remain the same as the Hobarts', with only the mast altered to accommodate the CEAFAR, CEAFAR2-L, SEAMOUNT arrays.