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Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ

I just wonder at what point the “gap” becomes inevitable, if it hasn’t already. Say they pick a vessel by January, is 3 years lead time too little to start cutting steel? Must there be a gap of any significance at all?
 
US Navy is in talk with UK, Australia and Canada about 'inter-operational ability' between the 4 navies in regards to their ongoing frigate replacements.

https://news.usni.org/2018/07/12/navy-hopes-commonality-least-interoperability-frigates-australia-canada-u-k
 
Design, systems bids for national shipbuilding strategy due Friday

Feds, Irving to select winning consortium later this year

Friday is the deadline for companies to hand in their revised technical proposals for Canada’s multibillion dollar warship procurement. Irving is the prime contractor for the combat portion of the government’s National Shipbuilding Strategy.

Bidders hoping to cash in on the federal government’s massive multibillion dollar warship procurement have until Friday to hand over their final proposals.

The Chronicle Herald confirmed Tuesday that one of the three teams in the running, BAE Systems and Lockheed Martin Canada, has already submitted its final package for evaluation and the other two consortiums of Navantia and SAAB; and Alion Canada, Damen, and Atlas are on track to submit theirs by the deadline.

Though the request for proposals for a combined warship design and combat systems integrator closed on Nov. 30 last year, at the end of May the government’s evaluation team began providing bidders with feedback on areas that needed attention and gave the teams until July 20 to submit their revised technical proposals. The financial bids, which had not yet been submitted, are also due Friday.

This new system that allowed bidders to adjust their bids following feedback is referred to as the cure process, which the government claims will ensure maximum competition.

Irving Shipbuilding is the prime contractor for the combat portion of the government’s National Shipbuilding Strategy and will build a fleet of 15 Canadian Surface Combatants at its Halifax shipyard, with a budget of $56 billion to $60 billion, starting in the 2020s. It will also have a say, alongside the federal government, in selecting the winning bidder.

A spokesperson for Canada’s Combat Ship team — a name that Lockheed and BAE have given their partnership — told The Chronicle Herald that after years of hard work there is genuine excitement among the team after submitting their final bid on Tuesday.

“We are promising billions of dollars in innovation across Canada’s priority areas and we estimate we will generate an immense global market of exports from international sales,” the spokesperson said.

For the ship design component, BAE Systems is offering its Type 26 Global Combat Ship — long rumoured to be a favourite of Royal Canadian Navy officials and arguably the most modern vessel of its kind in the world. For the combat systems on board, Lockheed Canada is putting forward its Canadian-designed CMS 330. This is a newer version of the combat management system Lockheed designed for the Royal Canadian Navy’s original Halifax-class ships and is present on Canada’s modernized frigates.

The U.K. navy is currently in the process of procuring eight Type 26 anti-submarine warfare frigates, and just last month the Type 26 was selected as the winning design in Australia’s SEA 5000 program — their government will be building nine.

Bruce Samuelson, chief operating officer for Alion, said he feels that his team’s submission offers a balance between capability and risk while meeting all the navy’s technical requirements.

Alion Canada is leading a bid that includes Damen’s Dutch De Zeven Provinciën class LCF frigate design and an Atlas Electronic combat systems kit.

“It’s a military off the shelf design, which is what the Crown and the shipyard have asked for,” Samuelson said.

“The procurement itself was all focused on this balance of capability versus risk, and risk was assessed by how much does the baseline design have to be changed. Our design requires very few changes to adapt to the Canadian requirements so there’s that balance.”

Samuelson said during the bid process his team worked under the assumption that the importance of that proven, off-the-shelf component was sacrosanct, and if the government makes a decision to take a design that has not yet actually been utilized by any navy — referring to the Type 26 — that will be a significant deviation from the original intent of the procurement.

“As engineers and as technologists, there’s a natural desire to want to improve (our design). We have laid down the law on our team to ensure that the requirements laid out in the procurement, which is this balance of capability versus risk, were adhered to,” he said.

“If the Crown makes a decision to take a design that’s not in the water, I’ll have a lot of explaining to do to my board.”

BAE’s “paper ship” design — one that is still in the design and construction phase — has long been a concern for the company’s competitors, even prompting accusations of bid-rigging by the government earlier in the process when the requirements were allegedly expanded to allow for the Type 26 in the competition.

But speaking with media and industry experts at a roundtable discussion on the SEA 5000 program on Monday, Gary Fudge, VP of Canadian naval systems programs with Lockheed Martin, said if Canada were to select the Type 26 there will already be several vessels of that class in the water by the time Canada’s program gets underway.

“We feel we’re right in the sweet spot where the risk of the program will be down because we’ll be on ship four or five, but not too deep in that we can procure the equipment and systems that are standard on the ship,” he said.

The Chronicle Herald was not able to reach anyone from Navantia for comment, but a spokesperson confirmed they will be submitting their finalized technical proposal and their financial proposal by Friday. Navantia’s team is offering up a design based on the F-105 anti-submarine warfare frigate used by the Spanish navy.

Rania Haddad, a departmental spokeswoman, said in an email that once Public Services and Procurement Canada receives all bids on Friday, officials will then proceed with the remainder of the technical evaluation and the financial evaluation.

“Once the evaluation is complete, the Government of Canada and Irving will select and announce a preferred bidder,” she said. “Contract awards will follow later in 2018, and the start of ship construction remains scheduled for the early 2020s.”
http://thechronicleherald.ca/novascotia/1584921-design-systems-bids-for-national-shipbuilding-strategy-due-friday
 
The French company submitted with Italian partner Fincantieri a controversial bid in Canada’s competition for its Canadian Surface Combatant warship program, filing the offer directly to the Canadian National Defence Ministry rather than the Public Services and Procurement Canada office.

Naval Group has since held talks with Canadian authorities, and the company is confident its offer will be considered, François Dupont, Naval Group’s international business director, said June 14. That joint offer is based on the hull and propulsion of the Italian version of the FREMM warship and the Setis combat management system from Naval Group.
https://www.defensenews.com/industry/2018/07/18/french-firm-naval-group-releases-financial-results-from-first-half-of-2018/
 
Czech_pivo said:
US Navy is in talk with UK, Australia and Canada about 'inter-operational ability' between the 4 navies in regards to their ongoing frigate replacements.

https://news.usni.org/2018/07/12/navy-hopes-commonality-least-interoperability-frigates-australia-canada-u-k

The other 3 should carry and be willing to share with the US, but the US has a long history of pulling out of programs and doing it's own thing.
 
Colin P said:
The other 3 should carry and be willing to share with the US, but the US has a long history of pulling out of programs and doing it's own thing.

I'm not sure what 'news' there really is in that article, at least as far as Australia is concerned.  The Hobart class AWDs are equipped with Aegis and Cooperative Engagement Capability, as will be the new Hunter class.  The Collins class submarines are equipped with the USN's AN/BYG-1 combat system, while the new generation submarines will also utilise future evolutions of that system.  Probably the only munition carried by the fleet that is not common with the USN would be the MU-90 torpedoes on surface combatants.  Even gas turbines are common with the USN.  How much more interoperable can you get?
 
"Naval Group has since held talks with Canadian authorities, and the company is confident its offer will be considered, François Dupont, Naval Group’s international business director, said June 14. That joint offer is based on the hull and propulsion of the Italian version of the FREMM warship and the Setis combat management system from Naval Group."

I'd be surprised if this was the case - 1) there's been no news of this in any CDN news outlet or the Gov't of Canada, 2) their bid was not reviewed and they have not received any feedback re: revisions/changes to their bid during the 'cure' process which ends today.
If they are allowed to go forward after 20 July, then that's completely outside the rules the Government had established and forced the other 3 bidders to go through the 'curing' process - and all credibility (whatever is left) of CDN Defense procurement will be thrown out the door.
Just close the door on 20 July to the whole process, take the rest of the summer off(which I'm sure that will occur), come back after Labour Day and spend the remainder of Sept/Oct to finalise the process and announce the winner ahead of schedule (ha!) during the first week of Nov (right before the 100yr celebrations for the end of WWI) and bloody well move forward!
 
Czech_pivo said:
Just close the door on 20 July to the whole process, take the rest of the summer off
I doubt very much they are going to take the summer off. Iroquois and Algonquin were decommissioned in 2015.  Athabaskan was decommissioned in 2017.  First delivery of the first surface combatant is, if all goes well, mid 2020s—perhaps eleven years after Iroquois and Algonquin were decommissioned.
 
Eleven years is a long time for the Royal Canadian Navy to be without air-defence warships.  It might be time to come to work early, leave work late, work weekends, or hire additional staff.  The Parliamentary Budget Officer estimates that for each year of delay, the programme would cost about $3 billion more.
 
Uzlu said:
I doubt very much they are going to take the summer off. Iroquois and Algonquin were decommissioned in 2015.  Athabaskan was decommissioned in 2017.  First delivery of the first surface combatant is, if all goes well, mid 2020s—perhaps eleven years after Iroquois and Algonquin were decommissioned.
 
Eleven years is a long time for the Royal Canadian Navy to be without air-defence warships.  It might be time to come to work early, leave work late, work weekends, or hire additional staff.  The Parliamentary Budget Officer estimates that for each year of delay, the programme would cost about $3 billion more.

Air-Defence?  Psssh!

We have Sea Sparrow and CWIS, it doesn't matter that nobody understands that their are different weapon systems for different types of engagements, ranges, etc!

Understanding of Missile Defence, Weapons Systems, Air Defence, Warfare, etc in this country can be summed up with the following:

cafe-russia-unveils-image-of-its-terrifying-satan-2-missile-10964223.png
 
Final proposal is in,Canada will join,UK and Aystralia ist seems.  ;)

But it will all be different versions.Low risk,not known yet,not an excisting design(go figure)and propably most costly option,but the newest design for sure.(ASW specialized ship)


https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2018/july-2018-navy-naval-defense-news/6370-canada-s-combat-ship-team-unveils-comprehensive-csc-solution.html


 
There is a new review on latest ASW frigate design F-110 from Navantia. It seems a design ready to start production ... whenever funds are available.

Apart from a very good suite of radars, sonar, ESM and sensors, the design is about 6.700 tons, CODLOG propulsion, up to two Helos, AEGIS and (just only) 2x8 Mk. 41 cells. It is still to be decided if they will  use CAMM family missiles for local aerial defense or ESSM. It depends on wether integration with AEGIS is feasible or not.

Maybe some solutions adopted for the F-110 have also been included for the CSC bid ... (?)

http://www.infodefensa.com/es/2018/07/25/noticia-publica-primicia-ultima-actualizacion-fragata.html
 
More on USN FFG(X)--compare cost with CSC, just for order-of-magnitude purposes:

Navy Exercises Options For Additional Future Frigate Design Work.

The Navy has exercised options adding several million dollars to the future guided-missile frigate (FFG(X)) conceptual design work being performed by five shipbuilders in contention for the final hull design.

The Navy expects bids from the following shipbuilders – Austal USA, Huntington Ingalls Industries, General Dynamics Bath Iron Works, Lockheed Martin and Fincantieri Marinette Marine. A final request for proposal is expected in 2019, with the Navy planning to award a single source design and construction contract in 2020, according to the Navy. Ultimately, the Navy plans to build a fleet of 20 frigates [emphasis added].

Each company was awarded initial contracts of $15 million in February to start design work. The latest contract modification, announced Monday, sends between $6.4 million and $8 million in additional funding to each company to be used fleshing out their designs.

...The Navy expects to spend between $800 million and $950 million on each hull, which will follow the Littoral Combat Ship.

In terms of combat and communications systems, the Navy plans to use what is already deployed on LCS platforms. USNI News understands the new frigates will use the COMBATSS-21 Combat Management System, which uses software from the same common source library as the Aegis Combat System on large surface combatants. Missile systems for the frigate include the canister-launched over-the-horizon missile; the surface-to-surface Longbow Hellfire missile; the Mk53 Nulka decoy launching system and the Surface Electron Warfare Improvement Program (SEWIP) Block 2 program with SLQ-32(V)6. The ships would also require an unspecified number of vertical launch cells. The frigate design also is expected to include the SeaRAM anti-ship missile defense system and several undersea warfare tools...
https://news.usni.org/2018/07/31/35430

Mark
Ottawa

 
So each company got $15 million to flesh out their already existing designs...and now are receiving even more, to continue to design their already designed ships?  ???

I thought the whole point of the USN project here was to buy already existing designs that could be built & implemented rapidly, due to the LCS shortcomings.  Why do these pre-existing designs always need so much money for design work, if they are already designed?
 
CBH99: Perhaps sensibly cost-efficient to pay companies small sums (by US standards) to make their bids as useful and realistic as possible, and to ensure they won't lose much financially--if anything--by making their best bid possible. Do we do anything similar in Canada?

Mark
Ottawa
 
Fair enough.  Providing them with sums of money to ensure their bids go through the process rather seamlessly does make sense, and probably does save them time & hassle.  Makes sense.

On the surface it just seems odd to give them money to design a ship that is already designed & in some cases, in the water.  But, your explanation makes sense.
 
Alion Submits Final Proposal for CSC Program

Alion Canada, a wholly owned subsidiary of Alion Science and Technology, headquartered in McLean, Va., have submitted their final bid and compliance forms to the Canadian government for the Canadian Surface Combatant Program.

“We provide a world-class combatant that is proven, affordable, off-the-shelf solution. Our offering is focused on the Royal Canadian Navy’s stated requirements and will generate jobs and innovation across Canada,” says Chief Operating Officer Bruce Samuelsen. He added that Alion is ready today to work with Irving Shipbuilding and the Canadian Government to get production underway and ships in the water as soon as possible.

The Alion solution is based on the De Zeven Provinciën-class frigate— a proven NATO vessel, built by Damen Schelde Naval Shipbuilding, with more than 10 years of operational excellence.  Damen’s knowledge and design-for-production experience is made available to Canada through their key role as part of Alion’s team.

Alion’s combat system solution is based on the world-class capabilities of ATLAS-Elektronik and Hensoldt Sensors. ATLAS brings an outstanding, globally renowned open architecture Combat Management System that readily accepts new and evolving technologies. Hensoldt’s capability and experience in developing and fielding state-of-the art radars was central to meeting the unique Canadian requirements with a fielded, non-developmental radar. Other key suppliers include L3 Technologies Canada, Raytheon Canada Limited, DRS Technologies Canada Limited (DRS TCL) and Rheinmetall Canada Inc.

“Each decision we made for equipment selection and systems integration focused on delivering cost-effective solutions that meet the requirements while delivering robust Canadian content,” said Bruce Samuelsen, Chief Operating Officer for Alion. “Many original system suppliers are building systems in Canada, but our combat system partners are actually creating manufacturing jobs for Canadians.” In fact, Alion Canada provides the only domestic surface combatant ship design capability that will create additional high technology jobs through the CSC program, by including dozens of Canadian companies.

By selecting a ship with proven operational and combat experience, Alion’s solution also eliminates the risk associated with the typical lead-ship transition from design to production. “Our bid focused on reducing development and design activities, which delivers a lower overall cost,” said Samuelsen. “This is also significant from the standpoint of accelerating production.”

http://www.canadiandefencereview.com/news?news/2533
 
Could we open a poll to vote:

1. which team do you think will win  the CSC bid: Alion / BAE / Navantia-Saab (Dutch / Brits / Sp-Aussies) ?

2. Similarly ... which is YOUR preferred option?

Maybe it has already been done but I have not realized since I am new here.
 
JMCanada said:
Could we open a poll to vote:

1. which team do you think will win  the CSC bid: Alion / BAE / Navantia-Saab (Dutch / Brits / Sp-Aussies) ?

2. Similarly ... which is YOUR preferred option?

Maybe it has already been done but I have not realized since I am new here.

I'm down.
 
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