Canadians in Kandahar fire shots in self-defence

[48Highlander]

48th, I won't even get into the fact that you obviously don't know the area, don't know the ROE's, and don't know what some of these fanatics method of operation is. (Can you say car-bomb?) To compare them to cab drivers here only shows your ignorance of the situation over there.

By the way, I have been over there 2002 with 3 PPCLI, for what it's worth.

Key words:    "some"     "fanatics"

The fact that 0.05% of the population may be fanatics doesn't give you the right to immediately smoke anyone who gets near you.

 

[Infanteer]

I understand that it is commonly accepted that you don't overtake or squeeze into military convoys with a vehicle over there - so somebody doing so with a van is doing the equivelent of pointing a gun at you.   Watch that video again - there is a reason the Americans do this in Iraq; you can't tell the difference between good guy/bad guy when a vehicle is fucking with your convoy.

 

[Gunner]

I understand that it is commonly accepted that you don't overtake or squeeze into military convoys with a vehicle over there - so somebody doing so with a van is doing the equivelent of pointing a gun at you.

You haven't been to Afghanistan (particularly Kabul...) but you have been to Bosnia.  What did you do when you were patrolling in Bihac in an Iltis and a taxi got in between the two vehicle patrol?  Personally, I'll refain from commenting on how the gunner applied the rules of engagement because I wasn't there and I don't have all the information (media is notoriously inaccurate).  Based on the ROE and the situation, he made a choice which is what we train him to do.  His choice was to disable the vehicle so I commend him for making that difficult choice.    In my mind, it is better one dead Afghan taxi than 4 dead Canadians, I'm not sure if I would have been so restrained if he felt he or the vehicle commander felt they were at risk by the vehicle.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

The people over there know full well how things work.

 

[JBB]

IMHO...the safest course would have been to shoot into the cab. I suspect the solders overseas a trained to assume that a truck acting like that is a weapon.  But if no one is shooting at you, it is an entirely differant situation.  It is not so easy to kill a man, particularly at close range.  A different soldier on the gun may have done just so.  I am sure the debrief after the Op for the troops will bring all that out in the wash.  I wish them well.  It is very easy for me to second guess, from my safe office in Canada.

Have a good one..

JBB

 

[Infanteer]

You haven't been to Afghanistan (particularly Kabul...) but you have been to Bosnia.   What did you do when you were patrolling in Bihac in an Iltis and a taxi got in between the two vehicle patrol?

That was a common occurence - most often, we took the bird from them because we were the only ones going the posted speed limit.... :blotto:

You are right Gunner - but the threat level in BiH was close to nil (except for the few odds and sods) and I can't think of one reported case of Bosnian attacking NATO soldiers with suicide bombings/suicide cars.  Meanwhile, this is a daily occurrence in Iraq, and enemy forces in Afghanistan (who stem from the same AQ/Arab-Afghan background as the Iraqi gang) have inflicted casualties upon us before using the same MO.  I'd be more prone, if I was heading into that situation down in Kandahar, to using Iraq/Afghanistan (the story mentions a previous IED attack on Americans) rather than Bosnia as the basis for evaluating threats to friendly forces.

Personally, I'll refain from commenting on how the gunner applied the rules of engagement because I wasn't there and I don't have all the information (media is notoriously inaccurate).   Based on the ROE and the situation, he made a choice which is what we train him to do.   His choice was to disable the vehicle so I commend him for making that difficult choice.       In my mind, it is better one dead Afghan taxi than 4 dead Canadians, I'm not sure if I would have been so restrained if he felt he or the vehicle commander felt they were at risk by the vehicle.

Roger that - I said the same thing when I agreed with Kevin that I was not going to armchair quarterback what our guys did.  

My argument is aimed at the general principle of dealing with guys screwing around with your convoy in the Sandbox - be he Hadji or not (hence my video of the VBIED in Iraq).  Judging from what many guys have said returning from OEF/OIF (lots of good stuff over at LF), you don't really have the time or the luxary of being selective.

 

[KevinB]

you don't really have the time or the luxary of being selective.

BINGO

Sometime it comes down to wrong place wrong time - Dave Lee and I where literally ounces from smoking the driver from a cement truck who showed up at a suspected VBIED and was using it for shade from the sun - He walked towards me with something in his arms, the (my) safety went off about 70m and after 50m trigger pressure was being applied when Dave got their we agreed to both pop him in three more steps.  He stopped at 2.5 when out Interpretor finally got "they are going to kill you right now" out clear enough for him to hear.

I can tell you from doing the 'C8 stop drill' they know when your hand goes down and the carbine come up on their windshield they do an immediate brake stand and lock it up.

I was not there - so speculation ends - but I always go with "the guy on the ground at that moment in time."

 

[Infanteer]

The general line of discussion here (suicide attackers) is always a shitty deal and a tough call.  I remember one member here telling me of another platoon in his coy which greased a family in a van - the driver got worried (for whatever reason) and punched it towards a checkpoint.  I don't know what to say but "war is hell", or something to that effect.  Lose/lose, but Gunner said it earlier that we want to bring our guys home.

Other than that, all I can do is side with Kevin:

I was not there - so speculation ends - but I always go with "the guy on the ground at that moment in time."

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Me and my pl commander almost smoked a Bosnian for appearing to take a run at us on a one lane trail.  The sight of the C7 (or family) coming up into the shoulder is a sign to the aggressor to back the fuck off or pay the consequences.  It doesn't take too long for the locals to know what is and is not accepted practice by the western military.

 

[KevinB]

Me and my pl commander almost smoked a Bosnian for appearing to take a run at us on a one lane trail.  

Ahh (KevinB laments) the only real use for the issue ETool  

A true multi use tool - 1) Bludgeoning the stupid savage - and 2) Burying said savage when his skull proved thinner than had been indicated by his previous actions

*Kevin needs typing lessons

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Well he was in a car. 

 

[P-Free]

you people who wanted this guy dead are ******* ill. what a bunch of bullshit, it was an innocent man, **** off you sick racist bastards.

PM inbound.

 

[MTAB]

My hats off to the Canadian boys working in Kandahar, I worked that AO on both my trips....tough beat.  cheers to them. 

By the way, is the term Cnuck considered derogatory?

V/R
MTAB

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

No its not considered derogatory.  Canuck

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

P-Free not sure where your getting the racist vibe from.  Second.  What if he was a bomber.  Then it would be too late.  The driver was warned off several times.  He didn't obey.  He could have very well been testing the Canadains reponse since there new to the region again.  It could have been a trial run.  It could have been the real deal.  It could have been nothing.  Too many could have's.  The gunner not sure to the best thing in his mind by disabling the vehicle.  We don't know what the ROE's are but we all have the right to protect ourselves.  If there is a percieved threat he can take action.  Engine block or head.  His choice.
Anyway.
Don't worry the rest of us will protect you and your right to say what you want no matter how stupid it is.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

P.S.  go back to your space ship where its safe.

 

[Franko]

As someone who is actually on the ground in Kabul..... I'll weigh in here.  :

I agree with Kevin...he used the ROE's properly.

Mind you I'd hate to see what they would do here in Kabul....we'd be shooting every second vehicle  ;D

It's absolute madness with the driving habit of the locals....Toronto or Montreal will be a cakewalk when I get back.

As for clipping the driver...that may be too excessive. I know what I would have done given the scant amount of info reported. I wasn't there...nor was I in the man's shoes...so I'd say he did the right thing. His convoy made it home safe and sound...and that in the end is what matters.

Unless you are there doing the job, knowing the threats in the area...your comments are falling on deaf ears.

P-Free...PM inbound.

Regards

 

[MTAB]

P-Free, tried to PM you but your inbox is full.

Thanks for the information

 

[Infanteer]

Don't worry about P-Free, he's a clown who will be sitting in the penalty box right now.  Looks like Franko had to use scimitar on him because he couldn't take his lesson from yesterday.  :

 

[MTAB]

Don't worry about P-Free, he's a clown who will be sitting in the penalty box right now.   Looks like Franko had to use scimitar on him because he couldn't take his lesson from yesterday.   :

Ah, got it.... I try to return all PM's out of courtesy