CEOTP (Continuing Ed Officer Trg Plan) 2003-2018 [Merged]

[Occam]

It will likely exist, but I wouldn't count on it as a reliable commissioning plan.  It would be something you apply to if it happens to be open to increase your chances, but would rely on UTPNCM as the primary commissioning plan.

In no case would your pay ever be reduced below what you're earning at the time of promotion to OCdt.  You would also receive annual pay increases (if any are announced) that you would have received had you remained an NCM, until such time as your new pay level exceeds the old one.

Four years of service and/or LS rank doesn't give you anything towards a higher rank on commissioning.  I think it may under SCP and CFR, but not CEOTP.

And then also, which pay scale does CEOTP fall under? A,B,C,D,E?

See CBI 204.211(7)

 

[MasterInstructor]

You are early in your career.  Don't worry about it too much.  Just concentrate on excelling in your trade now..... keep your nose clean and when the time comes, you will have options. 

Thanks for the info and good advise! I will be sitting on pat for a long time at least 4 months, because I need secret security clearance to start my QL3. I am considering taking some university courses. That is why I am asking all these questions...

I already have 3 full-time terms worth of university credits...

cheers

 

[SeanNewman]

No, at your level you will not get any officer-level equivalences for your training/courses.

That's not to say your expertise won't count and you won't have all sorts of skills that will help you to succeed in your new job, but nothing gets "written off" until much higher in the ranks.

 

[George Wallace]

Haven't we been down this road before?

 

[captloadie]

With more and more NCMs either having a degree when they enter, or earning/finishing on their own time after they join, does anyone think they should either expand the CFR plan, or create something new? I think the system currently overlooks these individuals, and their potential to excel as an Officer. Some may have been eligible for DEU, but for personal/professional circumstances didn't go that route, and now have to wait until they are at least a MCpl and more likely a Sgt to CFR.

 

[George Wallace]

With more and more NCMs either having a degree when they enter, or earning/finishing on their own time after they join, does anyone think they should either expand the CFR plan, or create something new? I think the system currently overlooks these individuals, and their potential to excel as an Officer. Some may have been eligible for DEU, but for personal/professional circumstances didn't go that route, and now have to wait until they are at least a MCpl and more likely a Sgt to CFR.

Could this be an indicator of CHANGE?  Will the separation/distinction between officer and NCM become nonexistent?  Will the lines separating the two become blurred so as to merge the two career paths into one?  Will everyone begin at the bottom and through merit (to include education) rise through one rank structure?  Will the only officers not to follow this path be those who have entered Medical, Dental, Legal or Divinity Schools?

 

[SeanNewman]

Mr Wallace, as you likely know, many have pushed for just that idea.  Is that what you would propose, one solid link?

Or would you rather see everyone have the same initial basic engagement and then make the split?  IE, either you become a Cpl or OCdt at that point?

I think there's a lot of logic behind the one-link method, but I believe the main con with it is that you would only have old officers (if they had to pass through every other rank first).  Also, where does the jump happen?  After RSM, or just keep it in the line command jobs?

I am a huge proponent of making all officers do their first stint in their trade as a Pte. 

 

[PMedMoe]

I am a huge proponent of making all officers do their first stint in their trade as a Pte.

Me too, although several trades don't have officer or Pte rank.

 

[captloadie]

Or we could go the other way and everybody is an officer, like they do in Norway >

The concern with everyone starting as Ptes I think you would lose out on alot of the good leaders who go through the ROTP program (yes there are some). I joined because I wanted an education, and didn't want to wait to get it later. Had I not went ROTP, I would have never have joined the military. For many applicants who don't have a military background, the divide isn't being an Officer or an NCM, its getting an education or not.

That being said, I go back to my original question, is it feasible to have two streams, an ROTP stream, and a split at the Cpl level. And then, what do we do with the DEOs?

 

[SeanNewman]

If you're asking for opinion, then I would say that ROTP Civie U schould actually be scrapped because the CF is bending over too far to accommodate the person.  They're paying for free school and a salary, and even more money depending on the city. 

Yes, I know the person has to stay in for five years after graduation, but that's hardly a challenge to wait out.

IMO, if someone in high school wants a free education through the military they should have to go through RMC and get the whole package.

As for this thread though, what I think has been proposed is that everyone who wanted to split into the officer path after the three year BE would then attend a streamlined education and officer training system.  If it became formalized, I am certain they could get the educational part down to two years full time because it would be including summers and it would be military-focussed.  Then the officer phase training could be thinned down to a year because a lot of the soldier skills taught would already be known (the rank structure, drill, weapons, etc).

As for DEOs, those are a different case because they are givers and not takers (when compared against the ROTP Civie U program).  They have already paid their own way through school so the CF could exploit that, but yes they would have to take a different path.  Perhaps they get their degree, then do the BE, and then straight into officer trg instead of the educational part in the middle.

All hypothetical and academic discussion of course at this point.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

I'm not seeing the problem that would lead to such a massive change to our officer entry plans.  I don't think that the prevalence of university degreed NCM applicants in the Regular Force Army is anywhere near where some here seem to be suggesting that it is.

I don't see any benefit to cutting the ROTP civy-U stream.  How are they giving any less than the RMC folks?  What is the cost of maintaining RMC?

I think that having a variety of entry programs from a wide variety of sources promotes a healthy officer corps.

I also have grave reservations about selecting all the officers from the ranks of the NCMs.  I think that one unintended consequence could be the erosion of the professional NCO corps.  I've worked with one army where the officers came from the ranks, and they did not really have professional NCOs in the manner that we do. 

 

[SeanNewman]

...I think that one unintended consequence could be the erosion of the professional NCO corps...

And that point is bang on.  I asked above at what point would the CF make the split, after Cpl?  Sgt?  RSM?

Either you don't degrade the NCO corps and make everyone work their way up and you end up with only old officers, or you make the split early by cherry picking the ones with good potential and risk losing good Sgts, etc.

I guess it could be mitigated by making it all voluntary (?)

As for the current ways, I think a healthy diversity would still be maintained by only having DEOs and RMCs.  I am not saying that Civie U ROTPs don't make good officers, not by any means, what I am saying is that I honestly can't believe the CF even offers it because it's so good for the member.  Yes it costs money to run RMC, but we're running it anyway so the unit cost of adding those few more ROTP candidates to the RMC nominal role would make them borderline-free for RMC to have, but save all that money from sending them to other schools.

 

[gcclarke]

I was under the impression that RMC was being run at, or at least near to capacity, and that pretty much the only reason that people even get sent to Civvie U is either because there's no more room in RMC for that program that year, or they're in a degree program that is not offered at RMC, such as Nursing.

I understand what you're saying about it being "too good" of a deal for the member, but I think that you may be underestimating the unit cost of expanding the programs at RMC. Hiring more professors, constructing more labs, lecture halls, housing, etc. It all adds up quickly, as opposed to the relatively cheap cost of paying for tuition whereever the Civvie U happens to be.

 

[SeanNewman]

...I understand what you're saying about it being "too good" of a deal for the member, but I think that you may be underestimating the unit cost of expanding the programs at RMC...

Ack, and all good points.  Just discussion, really; not making policy here.

 

[donaldk]

With more and more NCMs either having a degree when they enter, or earning/finishing on their own time after they join, does anyone think they should either expand the CFR plan, or create something new? I think the system currently overlooks these individuals, and their potential to excel as an Officer. Some may have been eligible for DEU, but for personal/professional circumstances didn't go that route, and now have to wait until they are at least a MCpl and more likely a Sgt to CFR.

They do have an entry procedure for NCMs with degrees; it is not well known because it is fairly new.  It is the Special Commissioning Plan (SCP) and basically it shares with the UTP/NCM in the benefits that a UTP/NCM officer receives once they finish their university, except an SCP has these benefits execute immediately upon commissioning.

From my experience in dealing with DMCA with my CT/OT and countless hours of reading the CBI's/QR&O's/CFAO's here is a rundown of the entry plans the CF has (very brief unofficial nutshell - it is a Friday) (REF CBI 204 for the pay).



DEO --> entry from civi street with acceptable university degree in hand, including those with prior mil service (invalid for current serving military)... so do not worry about this unless you release and re-enroll.

CEOTP --> anyone from civilian or already in the service that has partial university level credits... not a reliable entry path.  Must obtain university degree within 12 years of service and I think maximum rank permitted is Capt/Lt(N) until that degree has been achieved (needs citation).  Replaced OCTP (still in the Pay Regs - because there are members currently serving paid under its category - but it is invalid).

ROTP --> usually civilians or PRes looking for taking their commission and want their university paid for; RMC is first choice. You will be a cadet and go through the charm school routine if you assigned to RMC.  This plan takes anyone... so someone looking at UTP/NCM that does not make the cut can apply for ROTP.

UTP/NCM -> NCM without univ degree that wants commissioning, and CF funded education.  It mimics ROTP but without the bullcrap of cadet life.  They want you to pick RMC but you will not fall under cadet life but will be made an OCDT during your stint at school.  Usually must be Cpl with QL5... having your CFPLQ/EPLQ (>2007) is a major asset has this will PLAR you BMOQ.  Academic waivers are also required (existing trades training might knock off certain credits).

SCP --> Must be a current serving NCM.  Must have a valid university degree for the MOS you want to enter into. Preferably have CFPLQ/EPLQ (>2007 gets BMOQ waived).  Pte/OS/AB with university degrees can enter into this plan... they will be paid under the "A" scale.  LS/Cpl and above fall into the "D" scale (see Notes below).  See notes.

CFR --> Must be RegF PO2/SGT or above with 10years+ service and LACK a university degree.  If you meet this but are university qualified you WILL fall under SCP (it is for the better). See notes.

Notes:
-- For pay details read CBI 204... It is a mouth full as officer enrolment plan pay is much more complicated then NCM pay ever gets.
--

SCP:
- 2 years until Promotion (must be MOS qualified)
- Advance promotion possible after 1 year
- At the MCpl/SGT lower levels the pay vest back favours a littler better (a few dollars) (looks like the April 10 rates tightened this up as my difference was much more).  For those that happen to max out pay rate "D", they will enter into "E" IPC 10. At this point their only advantage over a CFR is only having to wait 2 years for promotion into the next rank.
- requires university degree that lines up with the desired MOS
- Post grad studieslater into the carrier possible
- Ideally minimum rank is MCpl with PLQ... but DMCA has used this for any NCM that had a degree that wants to go officer.

CFR:
- 3 years until promotion EPZ - firm (see the CF grievances website)
- Advance promotion still possible after 1 year
- Pay vest back is slightly worse than SCP, however the E scale has a higher peak rate, this favours specialist paid SGT's and WO's.
- requires 10+ years service and rank of MCpl minimum, SGT preferred
- University NOT required.
- New MOS must line up with previous MOS training and experience

For those not spec paid the difference can be even more (My pay if vested under level E would have been $200 less per month - I was a MS IPC 3 to SLt back in 2009  - but I noticed the new 2010 rates this time tightened that up).
-- Vest back formula (excluding pilots): [New rank pay #] = ([New rank IPC 1 pay] - [New rank IPC basic pay]) + [Old Pay] ; [New rank pay #] will fall in between two new rank IPCs, the higher of which is chosen as your New Pay.

Example: SGT pay IPC 3 SPEC 1: 5932, becomes a General Service Officer at Lt
If the SGT was a CFR: New pay = (4966-4776) + 5932 = 6122 --> "D" IPC 7 (6285)
If the SGT was a SCP: New pay = (5159-4961) + 5932 = 6130 --> "E" IPC 6 (6279)

 

[agc]

Commissioning plans are competitive (ie, it's an option to apply), so be aware that aptitude test scores, interview results, level of education, recommendations by your chain of command, etc are all factors in being selected.

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pub/cbi-dra/204-eng.asp  - CBI chapter on pay

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/pd/pi-ip/09-05-eng.asp - CMP Instr for CEOTP

You would be appointed to NCdt, and promoted to A/SLt on completion of officer trg.  If you have your PLQ, you can apply for a training equivalency and get commissioned right away.  You keep your NCM pay while a cadet, and then get paid in level D in the tables until promoted to Lt(N).

The UTPNCM is usually considered a better career path, since you keep your pay to go to university full time, and you can apply for most officer occupations.  Conversely the CEOTP requires you complete a degree on your own time (if the Navy gives you any), and isn't open to a wide variety of occupations.  Selection under either plan will result in a review of your terms of service and you would likely have to sign your IE25.  You should consult your PSO office about how obligatory service will affect you, esp if you are in a Naval technical trade.

Some resources you should check out when you make your own learning and career plan are:

The CF Equivalency Database: http://www.cda-acd.forces.gc.ca/dli-dai/acc/cfed-bdefc/app/index-eng.asp

www.opme.forces.gc.ca  The OPME curriculum is worth taking even if you never commission, and the courses are provided free of charge for serving members.

Canadian Virtual University: http://www.cvu-uvc.ca/cgi-bin/cvu/cvuinfo.cgi?qn=subject&lang=en

If you have access to a DWAN terminal at work the MARLANT FPSO has an excellent site on halifax.mil.ca (link is on the right near the bottom).

 

[g_jeremies]

Interesting thread.
I have a question about commissioning:
I am an untrained private (only BMQ qualified), still in waiting for a QL3 course.
I have a civilain university degree, fully paid of with my own funds.
I am medically fit, with a CFAT (Aptitude Test) that qualifies me for my trades of interest.
I spoke with the BPSO recently about my options, and the only option he saw was SCP (Special Commissioning Plan). The only problem is the minimum QL3 eligibility requirement.
Are there any other options, as it seems silly for the CF to spend money training me to QL3 standard only to have me commission and then need completely different training.
If I have a degree already, is there any way to "jump in" as a DEO candidate, after all, they aren't QL3 qualified and that isn't a problem.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[captloadie]

I'm curious to know if when you first applied the recruiting centre gave you information on the DEO option, and if so, why you first decided to enlist and go the NCM route.

I also wonder if there is an increasing number of candidates applying who believe that once you get in, getting a commission won't be that difficult, given they have all the prerequisites (Degree, required experience, CFAT scores, etc.)?

As for the last poster's question, it would probably be quicker to voluntarily release and apply DEO then wait on being accepted through one of the commissioning plans. That being said, looking at some of the posts recently, they aren't hiring in alot of trades, Officer or NCM, this year. It might be risky to give up what you have, unless you know you aren't going to be happy and could walk away from it all if you don't get re-enrolled.

 

[CallOfDuty]

...I'm curious too!  Why in the hell would you pay for a full university education yourself and then join up to be a private for the next 4 years??
  I'm not saying NCM is a waste of time, but theres a lot of very interesting officer trades, that you could have chosen!!  Unless maybe you were deemed unsuitable for officer in your interview? 
    What trade are you going?  Are you still interested in trying it out?  It might be worth your while VR'ing if you know you're going to hate life for the next 4 years......

 

[CallOfDuty]

  Failed pft and was CT'd?  CT in  our world means you were component transferred. 
Anyhow, what about the ncm  trade AESOP?  That's an aircrew job....and an awesome one too.  It is a roundabout way to go...but if those are your options, go for it. 
    Go for it. Take a nice airforce ncm trade, wait out a few years and then apply under the CEOTP or UTPNCM program for ASCO or whatever you want.
  Remeber though..if you go RMS clerk, you could end up in any element.....including working for army!!