- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 60
Acs is aircrew selection, sometimes if they recognize your aviation degree or diploma they d let you bypass ACS
CEOTP (Continuing Ed Officer Trg Plan) 2003-2018 [Merged]
- Thread starter ringo_mountbatten
- Start date
- Status
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
- Reaction score
- 127
- Points
- 710
I am simply amazed that you guys are professing to have 'higher' educations and are aspiring to be officers in the CF, yet in all your posts your sentence structure is so unprofessional. I would say that the time is ripe for you to start getting in the habit of writing 'professionally acceptable' prose to further your credibility and skills as future officers of the CF.
Dear Mr. Wallace,
I am simply amazed that you would take time out of your day to comment on our sentence structure. I wasn't aware that this forum had rules on sentence structure. Although I do understand your comment regarding "credibility", I am not an officer in the Canadian Forces. The purpose of this post was to help increase my knowledge of ways to join the Canadian Air Force, including that of the CEOTP. If you have any information on the CEOTP I would love to hear about it! Also, I want to make it clear that I have never professed to have "higher" education! Finally, I would appreciate it if people making comments on this post would please stick to the topic, and not make unproductive comments. Thank you very much!
Sincerely,
Avro
I am simply amazed that you would take time out of your day to comment on our sentence structure. I wasn't aware that this forum had rules on sentence structure. Although I do understand your comment regarding "credibility", I am not an officer in the Canadian Forces. The purpose of this post was to help increase my knowledge of ways to join the Canadian Air Force, including that of the CEOTP. If you have any information on the CEOTP I would love to hear about it! Also, I want to make it clear that I have never professed to have "higher" education! Finally, I would appreciate it if people making comments on this post would please stick to the topic, and not make unproductive comments. Thank you very much!
Sincerely,
Avro
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
- Reaction score
- 127
- Points
- 710
avro87
Thank you ever so much for the admonishing post. I may point you in a direction that may help you in your application process and personal betterment to point out the Topic in the Army.ca Admin Forum titled Grammar and Sentence Structures for this site. It is only one of the Topics we covered to encourage the improvement and betterment of this site and its participants. The CF is a "Professional" organization and its members are expected to behave and write like "Professionals". MSN and ICQ "short hand" has also been covered, as has Misspellings in titles of threads. I am sure that if you were to learn proper grammar and sentence structure, it would only aid you in your quest to become an officer. You don't want to go into an interview or selection board and talk and write like a hick, do you?
Anyway; help us to keep this a 'professional' site.
George
Thank you ever so much for the admonishing post. I may point you in a direction that may help you in your application process and personal betterment to point out the Topic in the Army.ca Admin Forum titled Grammar and Sentence Structures for this site. It is only one of the Topics we covered to encourage the improvement and betterment of this site and its participants. The CF is a "Professional" organization and its members are expected to behave and write like "Professionals". MSN and ICQ "short hand" has also been covered, as has Misspellings in titles of threads. I am sure that if you were to learn proper grammar and sentence structure, it would only aid you in your quest to become an officer. You don't want to go into an interview or selection board and talk and write like a hick, do you?
Anyway; help us to keep this a 'professional' site.
George
Mr. Wallace,
I understand completely what you are saying. I would like to some how write my laughter on this post with regard to the "hick" comment, but that would involve using MSN/ICQ slang (ie. lol). I completely agree that the Canadian Forces are professional, and I would expect its members to behave in a professional manner. My point to my last post was to say that I am not a member, and I am simply trying to find information on the CF. I was not intending to write my posts in a grammatically correct way, simply because I did not think of this forum as a means of displaying my professionalism. Nor do I think that it is necessary. However, I can see you point on being professional all the time, so to help in my quest of becoming an officer. Lastly, I would like to make the point that most people do not speak, in person, as they write on a forum or chat room. So I do not think I will have an issue when communicating with a recruiter.
Sincerely,
Avro
P.S. - I'm quite confident I do not sound anything like a "hick" in person, or on this forum for that matter.
I understand completely what you are saying. I would like to some how write my laughter on this post with regard to the "hick" comment, but that would involve using MSN/ICQ slang (ie. lol). I completely agree that the Canadian Forces are professional, and I would expect its members to behave in a professional manner. My point to my last post was to say that I am not a member, and I am simply trying to find information on the CF. I was not intending to write my posts in a grammatically correct way, simply because I did not think of this forum as a means of displaying my professionalism. Nor do I think that it is necessary. However, I can see you point on being professional all the time, so to help in my quest of becoming an officer. Lastly, I would like to make the point that most people do not speak, in person, as they write on a forum or chat room. So I do not think I will have an issue when communicating with a recruiter.
Sincerely,
Avro
P.S. - I'm quite confident I do not sound anything like a "hick" in person, or on this forum for that matter.
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
- Reaction score
- 127
- Points
- 710
Other than that, it was relatively well written. ;D
[Just a note: Spell Check doesn't pick up "writting" as being spelled incorrectly.]
[Just a note: Spell Check doesn't pick up "writting" as being spelled incorrectly.]
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 360
George Wallace said:
Put knot awl yore trussed inn spell cheque.
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
- Reaction score
- 127
- Points
- 710
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 60
For a long story short, my contract as an Armoured Recce Trooper (3rd year Private) ended in May of 2006 (4B release), after 3 years active service with a tour in Afghanistan. In July of 2006, I applied under a new program "CEOTP" (entry date for program is October 2005) for pilot and in April of 2007, after they had "lost" my old medical files for months, the program was shut in my face and I was forced to change to a new MOC, I chose MARS Officer, Navy. I have finished all my tests (again) and I am now awaiting final review of my files from Borden.
The question in my head as I start planning for my future, what is my pay scale and rank upon start or re-completion of basic? (and yes I have to go through it again, as the officer basic is not the same overall content for those asking). I called and inquired, poured through vast forces documents and found only this...
Quote from Compensation and Benefit Instructions (204) from the DND website:
"204.211(1) (Purpose) The purpose of this instruction is to establish the rate of pay for an officer on enrolment, component transfer or commissioning, taking into consideration the number of pay increments awarded in accordance with CBI 204.015 - Pay Increments, CBI 204.04 - Rate of Pay on Promotion, and the officer’s rank and entry plan.
204.211(1.1) The following abbreviations are used in this CBI:
1. (a) “CEOTP” means Continuing Education Officer Training Plan;
2. (b) “CFRP” means Commissioned From the Ranks Plan;
3. (c) “DEO” means Direct Entry Officer;
4. (d) “OCTP” means Officer Candidate Training Plan (No Former Service and Former Service);
5. (e) “ROTP” means Regular Officer Training Plan;
6. (f) “SCP” means Special Commissioning Plan; and
7. (g) “UTP”(NCM) means University Training Plan Non-Commissioned Member.
204.211(1.2) (Application) This instruction applies to
1. (a) an officer cadet to whom the ROTP, the UTP(NCM), the OCTP, the CEOTP, the SCP or the CFRP applies;
2. (b) a lieutenant or a second lieutenant who has successfully completed the ROTP, the UTP(NCM), the CEOTP, the SCPl or the OCTP ;
3. (c) a DEO in the rank of lieutenant, second lieutenant or officer cadet;
4. (d) a lieutenant or second lieutenant commissioned directly from the rank of warrant officer or below; and
5. (e) a pilot who was appointed to the rank of officer cadet or enrolled in the DEO Program after 30 September 1998.
204.211(2) (Pay on promotion) In accordance with paragraphs (3) and (4) of CBI 204.04 - Rate of Pay on Promotion, an officer shall be paid on promotion at the rate of pay established for the officer’s rank, pay increment and pay level as set out in the tables to this instruction.
204.211(7) (Rate of pay – CEOTP) An officer to whom the CEOTP applies shall be paid, for each month after the month and year specified in the table, at the rate of pay for the officer’s rank and pay increment as follows:
1. (a) for an officer in the rank of lieutenant or second lieutenant
1. (i) with no former non-commissioned member service, in pay level B of Table "B" or "C" to this instruction, or
2. (ii) with former non-commissioned member service and appointment to the rank of officer cadet directly from the rank of private or above, in pay level D of Table "B" or "C" to this instruction; and
2. (b) in the rank of officer cadet with no former non-commissioned member service, in pay level B of Table "A" to this instruction.
(1) (General) The rate of pay on promotion or commission for an officer up to the rank of lieutenant-colonel and for a non-commissioned member will be based on the rate of pay held prior to promotion. A pay increment higher than basic in the new rank may be determined in accordance with this instruction.
(2) (Application) This instruction applies to:
a. officers paid under:
i. CBI 204.21 (Pay - General Service Officers);
ii. CBI 204.211 (Pay - General Service Officers - Officer Entry Plans - Lieutenant, Second Lieutenant and Officer Cadet), with the exception of officer cadets promoted to second lieutenant to whom the Direct Entry Officer Plan applies;
iii. CBI 204.215 (Pay - Officers - Pilots - Lieutenant-colonel, Major and Captain);
iv. CBI 204.2156 (Pay - Officers - Pilots - Officer Entry Plans - Lieutenant and Second Lieutenant);
v. CBI 204.216 (Pay – Medical Officers);
vi. CBI 204.217 (Pay – Dental Officers); and
vii. CBI 204.218 (Pay – Legal Officers);
b. non-commissioned members paid under CBI 204.30 (Pay - Non-commissioned Members), with the exception of corporals on appointment to master corporal.
(3) (Rate of pay on promotion) Subject to paragraphs (4) and (5), an officer or non-commissioned member shall be paid, on promotion to a higher rank, at the rate of pay established in the applicable CBI which is the greater of
a. the basic rate of pay for the member's new rank and, if applicable, pay level and trade group; or
b. the rate of pay for the pay increment and, if applicable, pay level and trade group, for the member’s new rank that is nearest to, but at least equal to, the sum of the rate of pay the member was receiving on the day immediately prior to the date of the promotion, plus an amount equal to the difference between the rate of pay established for pay increment 1 and pay increment Basic in the member’s new rank, but not to exceed the rate of pay for the highest pay increment in the new rank.
(4) (General Service Officer - Officer Entry Plans) If an officer is paid under CBI 204.211 and is entitled to receive pay level D on promotion to a higher rank, but the rate calculated under subparagraph (3)(b) of this instruction exceeds the rate of pay for the highest pay increment in pay level D in Table "B" or "C", as applicable for the officer’s new rank, the officer shall be paid under pay level E in that table in accordance with paragraph (3).
(5) (Medical and Dental officers) If a medical or dental officer is promoted to the rank of major or captain,
a. "basic rate of pay" for the purpose of subparagraph (3)(a) is pay increment 1; and
b. the "difference between the rate of pay established for pay increment 1 and pay increment Basic" for the purpose of subparagraph (3)(b) is the difference between the rate of pay established for pay increment 2 and pay increment 1.
(TB # 832549, effective 1 April 2005)"
I will put it simply, if anyone has went through a similar process or experience or actually knows the legal side to this question, please I'm all ears on this one!
Thanks!
The question in my head as I start planning for my future, what is my pay scale and rank upon start or re-completion of basic? (and yes I have to go through it again, as the officer basic is not the same overall content for those asking). I called and inquired, poured through vast forces documents and found only this...
Quote from Compensation and Benefit Instructions (204) from the DND website:
"204.211(1) (Purpose) The purpose of this instruction is to establish the rate of pay for an officer on enrolment, component transfer or commissioning, taking into consideration the number of pay increments awarded in accordance with CBI 204.015 - Pay Increments, CBI 204.04 - Rate of Pay on Promotion, and the officer’s rank and entry plan.
204.211(1.1) The following abbreviations are used in this CBI:
1. (a) “CEOTP” means Continuing Education Officer Training Plan;
2. (b) “CFRP” means Commissioned From the Ranks Plan;
3. (c) “DEO” means Direct Entry Officer;
4. (d) “OCTP” means Officer Candidate Training Plan (No Former Service and Former Service);
5. (e) “ROTP” means Regular Officer Training Plan;
6. (f) “SCP” means Special Commissioning Plan; and
7. (g) “UTP”(NCM) means University Training Plan Non-Commissioned Member.
204.211(1.2) (Application) This instruction applies to
1. (a) an officer cadet to whom the ROTP, the UTP(NCM), the OCTP, the CEOTP, the SCP or the CFRP applies;
2. (b) a lieutenant or a second lieutenant who has successfully completed the ROTP, the UTP(NCM), the CEOTP, the SCPl or the OCTP ;
3. (c) a DEO in the rank of lieutenant, second lieutenant or officer cadet;
4. (d) a lieutenant or second lieutenant commissioned directly from the rank of warrant officer or below; and
5. (e) a pilot who was appointed to the rank of officer cadet or enrolled in the DEO Program after 30 September 1998.
204.211(2) (Pay on promotion) In accordance with paragraphs (3) and (4) of CBI 204.04 - Rate of Pay on Promotion, an officer shall be paid on promotion at the rate of pay established for the officer’s rank, pay increment and pay level as set out in the tables to this instruction.
204.211(7) (Rate of pay – CEOTP) An officer to whom the CEOTP applies shall be paid, for each month after the month and year specified in the table, at the rate of pay for the officer’s rank and pay increment as follows:
1. (a) for an officer in the rank of lieutenant or second lieutenant
1. (i) with no former non-commissioned member service, in pay level B of Table "B" or "C" to this instruction, or
2. (ii) with former non-commissioned member service and appointment to the rank of officer cadet directly from the rank of private or above, in pay level D of Table "B" or "C" to this instruction; and
2. (b) in the rank of officer cadet with no former non-commissioned member service, in pay level B of Table "A" to this instruction.
(1) (General) The rate of pay on promotion or commission for an officer up to the rank of lieutenant-colonel and for a non-commissioned member will be based on the rate of pay held prior to promotion. A pay increment higher than basic in the new rank may be determined in accordance with this instruction.
(2) (Application) This instruction applies to:
a. officers paid under:
i. CBI 204.21 (Pay - General Service Officers);
ii. CBI 204.211 (Pay - General Service Officers - Officer Entry Plans - Lieutenant, Second Lieutenant and Officer Cadet), with the exception of officer cadets promoted to second lieutenant to whom the Direct Entry Officer Plan applies;
iii. CBI 204.215 (Pay - Officers - Pilots - Lieutenant-colonel, Major and Captain);
iv. CBI 204.2156 (Pay - Officers - Pilots - Officer Entry Plans - Lieutenant and Second Lieutenant);
v. CBI 204.216 (Pay – Medical Officers);
vi. CBI 204.217 (Pay – Dental Officers); and
vii. CBI 204.218 (Pay – Legal Officers);
b. non-commissioned members paid under CBI 204.30 (Pay - Non-commissioned Members), with the exception of corporals on appointment to master corporal.
(3) (Rate of pay on promotion) Subject to paragraphs (4) and (5), an officer or non-commissioned member shall be paid, on promotion to a higher rank, at the rate of pay established in the applicable CBI which is the greater of
a. the basic rate of pay for the member's new rank and, if applicable, pay level and trade group; or
b. the rate of pay for the pay increment and, if applicable, pay level and trade group, for the member’s new rank that is nearest to, but at least equal to, the sum of the rate of pay the member was receiving on the day immediately prior to the date of the promotion, plus an amount equal to the difference between the rate of pay established for pay increment 1 and pay increment Basic in the member’s new rank, but not to exceed the rate of pay for the highest pay increment in the new rank.
(4) (General Service Officer - Officer Entry Plans) If an officer is paid under CBI 204.211 and is entitled to receive pay level D on promotion to a higher rank, but the rate calculated under subparagraph (3)(b) of this instruction exceeds the rate of pay for the highest pay increment in pay level D in Table "B" or "C", as applicable for the officer’s new rank, the officer shall be paid under pay level E in that table in accordance with paragraph (3).
(5) (Medical and Dental officers) If a medical or dental officer is promoted to the rank of major or captain,
a. "basic rate of pay" for the purpose of subparagraph (3)(a) is pay increment 1; and
b. the "difference between the rate of pay established for pay increment 1 and pay increment Basic" for the purpose of subparagraph (3)(b) is the difference between the rate of pay established for pay increment 2 and pay increment 1.
(TB # 832549, effective 1 April 2005)"
I will put it simply, if anyone has went through a similar process or experience or actually knows the legal side to this question, please I'm all ears on this one!
Thanks!
- Reaction score
- 1,705
- Points
- 1,140
You're applying CEOTP right? If so, I believe you'll be making 2507$ a month for the first year and you'll be Ocdt. It's the Pay Level B in the General Officer table, Ocdt Rank.
Max
Max
- Reaction score
- 7
- Points
- 230
There is a program to pay for tuition and books for those who are upgrading their education. As CEOTP you would be required to take the degree on a part time basis, while you have a full-time commitment to your CF job.
If you have made substantial progress to your degree, and are a top performer, there are limited spots for a degree completion program. However, these spots are limited. I would expect that the competition would be very high for the limited available spots.
Plan on working very hard to complete your degree if you go CEOTP.
If you have made substantial progress to your degree, and are a top performer, there are limited spots for a degree completion program. However, these spots are limited. I would expect that the competition would be very high for the limited available spots.
Plan on working very hard to complete your degree if you go CEOTP.
As an aside, if you are looking for a sold distance education school with a reputable name...
the University of London offers full degree programs online; with exams once a year. You get the same degree as anyone else who attends at the school. Costs are comparable.. seems to be cheaper for tuition, but you'll probably pay a fair amount in exam fees.
http://www.londonexternal.ac.uk/
the University of London offers full degree programs online; with exams once a year. You get the same degree as anyone else who attends at the school. Costs are comparable.. seems to be cheaper for tuition, but you'll probably pay a fair amount in exam fees.
http://www.londonexternal.ac.uk/
FYI, CEOTP is now closed for all Combat Arms.
Lucky me, I got to find out at my interview (for Combat Arms trades) today. I suppose this is a good thing for the CF; I just would have preferred to have been told about it earlier, or that they keep my file open until a spot opens... having to reapply is... well...
IIRC, the following CEOTP trades are open:
MARS, PLT, ATC, LOG (A)
3/4 I do not qualify for due to CV3.
Lucky me, I got to find out at my interview (for Combat Arms trades) today. I suppose this is a good thing for the CF; I just would have preferred to have been told about it earlier, or that they keep my file open until a spot opens... having to reapply is... well...
IIRC, the following CEOTP trades are open:
MARS, PLT, ATC, LOG (A)
3/4 I do not qualify for due to CV3.
I have been using this forum over a year, but its time I post my concern. I have applied for ceotp plan as a pilot, only did and pass the apt test, april 10, 2006. since then waiting for pre-security clearance. tho I have worked in Saudi, Malaysia, Bangladesh and singapore, tech training in France, visit Britain and US.
I keep asking the recruiter about my recruitment but same old story, still waiting for clearance. Last year, Aug 2007, I contacted CSIS<intelligence agancy> about the clearance and the agency said, my employer did not submit any request to do check on me, I got highly frustrated and contact Production officer, recruitment Ottawa about a surprise from csis. He said its a Dep Provost Marshall thats in charge of my security clearance.
The question are:
1) Does it mean the Canadian military don't trust the job of csis for clearance check, b/c you hear Can force saying they are short of staff in the security clearance dept, and thats the reasons for backlog.
2) You see Ads, flyer everywhere looking for personnels in military, yet the military slow down in recruitment process, but use a pretends that its security clearance that take times, the middle east and others I have worked, they are all US companies that send me there from Canada, and they have all my information on my period I have worked for them. its a field work, 7 weeks in desert and vac for 3 weeks in Canada.
3) what happen to other process like medical, fitness since pilot is a specialize profession, at least one can be either qualified or disqualified even b/f the pre-secure comes.
4) I have worked with Raytheon Canada (Tech) and Toronto International Airport (security), while there we did security clearance check. infact Raytheon said since they worked for US govt, its customer's demand that they get our names to US for check. So what happen with all these places I have worked.
5) I have been in around the country for 18 months now taking Elec Eng prog in Carleton Univ., the same old story waiting for clearance.
Although I was not born in Canada, but one keep wondering whats going on with recruitments since I met the requirement as a Canadian citizen, Apt, and education. Again can any one tell me when in every year they do selection for ceotp for pilot?. And what happen if a year passed without decision on candidates thats has passed apt test.
finally when or how long do you have to wait for pre-security. I once told the recruiter that Nigeria where I was originally from is not in war time and will be co-operative with Canadian contact source of info request, so also my former employers, Rayhteon, Toronto airport, Schlumberger and Grant geophysical, USA.
I need some encouragement and good comments, I am considering writing at the end of this year for a stop on the military career I have love to join, I mean its weird to wait indefinitely. Any comments guys thanks :-\
I keep asking the recruiter about my recruitment but same old story, still waiting for clearance. Last year, Aug 2007, I contacted CSIS<intelligence agancy> about the clearance and the agency said, my employer did not submit any request to do check on me, I got highly frustrated and contact Production officer, recruitment Ottawa about a surprise from csis. He said its a Dep Provost Marshall thats in charge of my security clearance.
The question are:
1) Does it mean the Canadian military don't trust the job of csis for clearance check, b/c you hear Can force saying they are short of staff in the security clearance dept, and thats the reasons for backlog.
2) You see Ads, flyer everywhere looking for personnels in military, yet the military slow down in recruitment process, but use a pretends that its security clearance that take times, the middle east and others I have worked, they are all US companies that send me there from Canada, and they have all my information on my period I have worked for them. its a field work, 7 weeks in desert and vac for 3 weeks in Canada.
3) what happen to other process like medical, fitness since pilot is a specialize profession, at least one can be either qualified or disqualified even b/f the pre-secure comes.
4) I have worked with Raytheon Canada (Tech) and Toronto International Airport (security), while there we did security clearance check. infact Raytheon said since they worked for US govt, its customer's demand that they get our names to US for check. So what happen with all these places I have worked.
5) I have been in around the country for 18 months now taking Elec Eng prog in Carleton Univ., the same old story waiting for clearance.
Although I was not born in Canada, but one keep wondering whats going on with recruitments since I met the requirement as a Canadian citizen, Apt, and education. Again can any one tell me when in every year they do selection for ceotp for pilot?. And what happen if a year passed without decision on candidates thats has passed apt test.
finally when or how long do you have to wait for pre-security. I once told the recruiter that Nigeria where I was originally from is not in war time and will be co-operative with Canadian contact source of info request, so also my former employers, Rayhteon, Toronto airport, Schlumberger and Grant geophysical, USA.
I need some encouragement and good comments, I am considering writing at the end of this year for a stop on the military career I have love to join, I mean its weird to wait indefinitely. Any comments guys thanks :-\
M
maniac779
Guest
CEOTP Pilot is a competitive entry plan.
Not to mention, at this moment, CEOTP pilot is closed. Even if your entire application was squared away, we wouldn't be enrolling you.
April is the new fiscal year. Chances are CEOTP pilot will open again, but one can never be too sure.
WRT your complains with our clearance policy; we have a process that ensures we get reliable, trustworthy people through the door. It's a process that is by and large, tried, tested and true. If you have lived out of country for significant periods of time, it takes time to gather the required information for us to be satisfied.
Has it occurred to you that we may be having trouble getting the information from the third parties regarding your past history?
Not to mention, at this moment, CEOTP pilot is closed. Even if your entire application was squared away, we wouldn't be enrolling you.
April is the new fiscal year. Chances are CEOTP pilot will open again, but one can never be too sure.
WRT your complains with our clearance policy; we have a process that ensures we get reliable, trustworthy people through the door. It's a process that is by and large, tried, tested and true. If you have lived out of country for significant periods of time, it takes time to gather the required information for us to be satisfied.
Has it occurred to you that we may be having trouble getting the information from the third parties regarding your past history?
Hey maniac779,
I only need encouragement from guys, but I don't really understand what you mean by "...Even if your entire application was squared away, we wouldn't be enrolling you."
I am absolutely free from any decision by Military anyway, tho not sure if you speak for Can military anyway but be sure that there is nothing spoil, I have never put all my hope in the force job anytime. I am doing fine b/f my intention to join, my earning was 2 times what military is offering, but its not about money but a career, what you want to do or be in life, and Canada. Take time to find out that average enrollings are jobless or for more packages, but mine is completely out of thats, its about what I want to be and Canada...
why don't you encourage rather discourage your fellow human. Thanks
I only need encouragement from guys, but I don't really understand what you mean by "...Even if your entire application was squared away, we wouldn't be enrolling you."
I am absolutely free from any decision by Military anyway, tho not sure if you speak for Can military anyway but be sure that there is nothing spoil, I have never put all my hope in the force job anytime. I am doing fine b/f my intention to join, my earning was 2 times what military is offering, but its not about money but a career, what you want to do or be in life, and Canada. Take time to find out that average enrollings are jobless or for more packages, but mine is completely out of thats, its about what I want to be and Canada...
why don't you encourage rather discourage your fellow human. Thanks
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