CEOTP (Continuing Ed Officer Trg Plan) 2003-2018 [Merged]

[Redeye121]

OK thanks for the quick reply, and helpful answers. I do agree that the program would be good especially to employers in the aviation business. As for the Transport Canada medical yeah I will have to call the guy up in the near future.

Once again thanks

Red

 

[Meridian]

Thanks all for the feedback.

I'm tending to lean towards what Kincanucks touched on -  previous service.   I've heard frequently that this is not the case,  (and my friend seemed to believe that the three did NOT have previous service)  but the only CEOTP pers on here who have ever claimed being promoted 2LT after BOTP were pers with previous service.  No other cases have come forward.

The e-mail based answer I got from the CFRC was equally vague in that "it depends" on previous service.  This doesn't seem like a hard and fast set of rules to me... so how does the CF ensure this is done fairly?

Ref: "Check your message".   That's just the thing.  I don't have one.   

I'm keenly seeking to apply as soon as CEOTP opens up again (hopefully it does), as I was sidelined last year when the last position was offered while I was still waiting my med file from NDHQ.    However,  I want to be sure I can afford financially the potential 2+ years in the training system at whatever rank I'll be sitting at.    Thus, I'd love to not waste the CFRG's time in processing an app that I have to say no to.  Seems however that its the only way.

 

[WannaBeFlyer]

but the only CEOTP pers on here who have ever claimed being promoted 2LT after BOTP were pers with previous service.

Several of the contacts I mentioned earlier did not have previous service. Some had either Reserve or Cadet experience, but not all of them.

 

[militarymum]

My son has applied and been accepted to this program at UWO.  This is one of several options that he is contemplating while patiently awaiting a decision on his application to RMC.  We visited the campus during this past weekend's open house and he spoke with senior students of the program.  They were helpful in answering his questions and enthusiastic in their praise for the program as well as excited about their futures.  An ROTP student described his summer employment which was different than the non-ROTP student who worked for Transport Canada during his summers.  Currently the most senior class is small, only 8 anticipate graduating.  Attrition may be high, due to the cost or perhaps, like other flight training, very high standards with higher than average stress.  Either way, it appears that those who stick to it are happy with the program and pleased to have the hours under their belt.

 

[Rowshambow]

Sorry Meridian I thought you had a message already. There were a 4 people on my BOTP that were direct of the street, that were CEOTP and had no previous exp. They were promoted to 2Lt as soon as BOTP was done.

Kincan,  I don't have a degree, and am a 2Lt, I will be promoted to Lt in April (already talked to Career Mangler), and Capt 2 years after that. No you do not need a degree to be promoted, remember they used to also have a program that you came in from high school, with no degree and could still climb the ranks. There is a Maj in my Regiment that is now doing his distance learning getting his BA. We are taking some of the same courses, he has to get his degree to go further (and will be a LCOL) in the future. I see what you are trying to say, but it's just not the way it is. There is little reading on the req of CEOTP, and not many people know much about it. All I have is what I have been told by my career mangler, BPSO, and my messages.

 

[WannaBeFlyer]

remember they used to also have a program that you came in from high school, with no degree and could still climb the ranks.

Wasn't that the <a href="http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/009-26_e.asp"> Officer Cadet Training Plan </a>? I actually spoke with a Herc Pilot and a former Aurora (now E-3 Pilot) who came in through this plan in the 90's. (Neither one of them have their degree in case you were interested.) According to Annex C on that site, you must have reached a certain level of training before you were commissioned unlike the current CEOTP plan.

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
CLASSIFICATION     TRAINING COMPLETED
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
ARMD .........  Armoured Officer Classification Training Phase IV
ARTY .........  Artillery Officer Classification Training Phase IV
INF ..........  Infantry Officer Classification Training Phase IV
ANAV .........  Air Navigation, Basic (Wings Standard)
PLT ..........  Pilot Training, Basic (Wings Standard)
ATC ..........  Air Traffic Controller Basic Course
AWC ..........  Air Weapons Controller Basic Course
PADM .........  Basic Personnel Administration Officer Course
LOG ..........  Basic Logistics Officer Course (plus one
                specialty course in Transportation, Finance
                or Supply)

MARS .........  Maritime Surface and Sub-Surface Officer
                Classification Course Phase IV (Land)

SEC ..........  Basic Officer Security Services Course.


However, when you look up CEOTP, you will find that: (just a second, I have to switch to the DWAN).

4.6 Promotion and Career

Under the CEOTP

All candidates enrolled in the CEOTP shall hold the rank of OCdt/NCdt until completion of basic officer training, unless initially granted higher rank, Incentive Pay Category, or Time Counting for Promotion in recognition of previous service or training.
Commissioning and promotion shall be in accordance with current CF promotion policy

Maybe some of the confusion is between the two plans. They are similar yet very different in their promotion policies. It still doesn't explain why some are being commissioned and others are not.

 

[Meridian]

Maybe some of the confusion is between the two plans. They are similar yet very different in their promotion policies. It still doesn't explain why some are being commissioned and others are not.

Nope.  My follow-up email from the CFRG just got a response essentially telling me the only way I'll ever know is to get an enrolment message, and decide to accept or refuse. 

Seems kind of silly to me, and I can't imagine how its fair to those not getting comissions right away.

 

[infanteer-it]

Having gone through the training system with a bunch of CEOTP who got their comission shortly after BOTP, and having a pretty good guess who the OCdt you are talking about is.... lets just say he is well... an anomaly.

 

[Meridian]

Having gone through the training system with a bunch of CEOTP who got their comission shortly after BOTP, and having a pretty good guess who the OCdt you are talking about is.... lets just say he is well... an anomaly.

I'm confused as to who you are referring to and what exactly you are trying to say....

 

[Rowshambow]

MG, Yes I think you are right, I think it was something like that, as for the certain level of training, they had to be qualifies their trade before promotion, I know phase 4 for Armoured is the Troop leader course. So basically you had to be qualified the trade before promotion. I wonder how many were "backdated" so basically after there phase 4 they were promoted to 2Lt and simultaneously Lt, due to time in? I also wonder why some are promoted and some not, I guess only the person holding the message knows for sure!

 

[WannaBeFlyer]

MG, Yes I think you are right, I think it was something like that, as for the certain level of training, they had to be qualifies their trade before promotion, I know phase 4 for Armoured is the Troop leader course. So basically you had to be qualified the trade before promotion. I wonder how many were "backdated" so basically after there phase 4 they were promoted to 2Lt and simultaneously Lt, due to time in? I also wonder why some are promoted and some not, I guess only the person holding the message knows for sure!

Well, for some Pilots, I understand the wait was 2-4 years before they had their wings depending on how things were moving.

In Meridian's case, he has really searched for a concrete answer and has yet to receive one. Personally, if the recruiting centre informed me that they only way to find out was to apply and read the offer - then so be it! What else can he do? I don't feel he would be "wasting anybody's time" especially considering the amount of research he has performed on this topic and I believe I can say over the years now. I think what he is doing is responsible; it is just unfortunate he can't put this to bed with a concrete answer. Having said that, what if he received a negative answer and it was incorrect?

Chances are because he applied last year, he should only have to resolve his meds and update his interview. At that point, I would address my concerns with my MCC. I actually recall going over the pay scale with my MCC during my interview; it is perfect opportunity to table his concerns at that point.

Good luck Meridian. Based on the replies you received from the recruiting centre, I would submit the application. Outside of looking through a crystal ball, I think you have done all you can.

 

[Rowshambow]

Yes it's too bad there are no definitive answers. If this is going to be an ongoing program, maybe they will come out with some regulations regarding it. As MG said, good luck with your decision!

 

[Meridian]

Much thanks to all...  I guess the point will all be mute if CEOTP does not open for the combat arms trades this coming FY.  I'll be surprised, but you never know.

 

[maniac779]

I am by no means an expert, so don't quote me,  but I joined under CEOTP and have been doing OJT at a recruiting center for the past year.

First, WRT to promotion... Chances are you'll get promoted to 2Lt on completion of BOTP. That seems to be how they are doing it these days.

Secondly, WRT to pay. Depending on your incentives, if you are coming in under CEOTP with no former service, you'll most likely be paid under CBI 204.211(7)(a)(i) which indicates Level B of the table, which is as follows.

B
Basic 3224
IPC 1 3413
IPC 2 3737
IPC 3 4066

http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/cbi/includes/cbi_coverpage_e.asp?sidesection=6&docid=52

Hope that helps.

 

[Meridian]

I am by no means an expert, so don't quote me,  but I joined under CEOTP and have been doing OJT at a recruiting center for the past year.

First, WRT to promotion... Chances are you'll get promoted to 2Lt on completion of BOTP. That seems to be how they are doing it these days.

Secondly, WRT to pay. Depending on your incentives, if you are coming in under CEOTP with no former service, you'll most likely be paid under CBI 204.211(7)(a)(i) which indicates Level B of the table, which is as follows.

B
Basic 3224
IPC 1 3413
IPC 2 3737
IPC 3 4066

http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/cbi/includes/cbi_coverpage_e.asp?sidesection=6&docid=52

Hope that helps.

More fuel to the fire, thanks  

I am aware of the GROSS pay rates... but what is really important is NET (takeaway) pay.  I have an idea for an OCdt though, as there is a net pay sheet I received from the CFRC for a basic private and that is about 80$ less than an OCdt.    Amounts to 1330$ a month.

 

[maniac779]

Well thats going to depend on your location. When I moved out of Quebec, my take home went up substantially.

However, lucky for you, I was paid incorrectly for my first year in the RegF under the very table I have mentioned.

After R&Q, I took home about $800 every two weeks in St. Jean.

 

[benny88]

My son has applied and been accepted to this program at UWO.  This is one of several options that he is contemplating while patiently awaiting a decision on his application to RMC.  We visited the campus during this past weekend's open house and he spoke with senior students of the program.  They were helpful in answering his questions and enthusiastic in their praise for the program as well as excited about their futures.  An ROTP student described his summer employment which was different than the non-ROTP student who worked for Transport Canada during his summers.  Currently the most senior class is small, only 8 anticipate graduating.  Attrition may be high, due to the cost or perhaps, like other flight training, very high standards with higher than average stress.  Either way, it appears that those who stick to it are happy with the program and pleased to have the hours under their belt.

  Glad to hear he was accepted and that you got some good feedback from some CAM students. Fire away with any questions if I can help.

 

[Rowshambow]

not to mention, that if you are serving already, you should keep the same pay!

 

[Meridian]

not to mention, that if you are serving already, you should keep the same pay!

Agreed, however I am not a serving member.

 

[jmackenzie_15]

Is the CEOTP still closed to all Cbt Arms trades?