CFRC

[Blakey]

Whoa! back up the banana boat here slim.

As well, maybe this problem is just indicative to the west coast?,

If you read the post I was simply posing a question.
Edited for spelling

 

[MCpl Wesite]

Alright, I know that the resereve unit are responsible for sending the files to CFRC for processing. However, when they do their interview / Apptitude test / medical / CF Express test, ( All done at CFRC) a light has to click on at some point that these individuals can't be soldiers. We had a 98 lb woman on course this year...she was training to be in the infantry! She released. At what point do we stop and say to the recruit that you are unfit for the trade you are going for. Another example, this one was a clerk, he didn't have the physical strength to **** a C7! We need to have tougher regulations in place to stop unfit recruits from entering the system as it's a drain on the military's training buget. Time wasted on a course reteaching / mentoring individual recruits is just that...a waste. Unless the troop has just had minor difficulties during a test, but when it's constant it's a drain on staff and students alike. Morale on the course goes down, time is wasted that could be better spent practicing with the whole section. I say all this not as a rant but as a warning that the current recruiting system has very big flaws in it. We do get very good troops but on every course I've taught on in the last three years, our problem recruit ratio is getting larger.

So what do we do?
Any thoughts out there?
Any other instructors feel the same?

by the way the asterix in front of C7 is not a swear, it's the action of pulling back the "charging " handle  ;D

 

[PJ D-Dog]

I can sympathize with your cause.  I was once a frustrated MCpl instructor as well.  As a former CF QL2 instructor, I faced the same challenges in 1997 when I had a female in my section who was experiencing many of the same problems.  She spent the first 15 days of training going to medical.  She had a chit for pretty much everything.  I suggested to my course officer that she be recroused since she had missed too much drill.  The response was to order me to spend extra time to catch her up on drill (evenings until 2300).  It seems that nothing has changed much.  She ended up graduating but she certainly was not going to be a very effective soldier in the supply field she was going into.  Incidently, this was on the east coast (LFAA)..trying to spread the wealth here.

Your asking for a solution to a problem that doesn't have a very equitable solution to it.  If we restrict certain applicants from certain trades then it can be construde as discrimination.  The CF entry criteria is quite broad and set up in a way that will not be interpreted as discriminatory.  Remember, the human rights commission is always looking over your shoulder.  Having said that, perhaps if the recruiter who performs the first and second contacts were to explain in great detail the physical requirements of certain trades and of the basic training overall, then the individual may be able to make a determination on their own.

I tell all my recruit applicants what they are getting themselves into and how "boot camp is no joke".  I tell them up front that it will be hard and how they must want to pass and how they will have to physically push themselves to the limit.  I find that if they expect the worse, they tend to put out more.  Then again, I'm recruiting Marines and the applicants expect it to be hard.  Surprisingly, anyone can pass boot camp, just do what you're told, pass everything and put forth an effort.  I don't know what CF boot camp is like anymore.  I instructed on ten recruit courses back in the mid 1990's and the program was changing from serial to serial.

Hope this helps.

PJ D-Dog

 

[Springroll]

How about, instead of allowing recuits to pick their trades, why doesn't the CFRC pick a few for them and let them choose from there...or even better, why don't the recruits go to basic and have those instructors see what they excel at and assist the rercruit in finding a suitable trade for them??

Just a couple ideas

 

[dearryan]

Sorry Blakey,

I got a little excited when I saw a potential slam against the Westerners. My bad!

Ryan

 

[Matt_Fisher]

In all honesty, I wouldn't say that the Marine Corps recruiting system is that much better in screening out the "bad apples".  I had a fair number of recruits I went through boot camp with that I thought were borderline insane.

The difference is in the 'moulding' of the recruit that occurs in Marine recruit training vs. CF.  The Marines have 3 months to break down and rebuild a recruit into a Marine, whereas the CF Reserves tries to do it in a 6 or 7 weeks.  Plus, the Marines have a far more 'liberal' attitude towards what is acceptable vs. non-acceptable and give their drill instructors tremendous latitude in sorting recruits out through some very draconian 'old school' means.

 

[Springroll]

BMQ is now 12 weeks long...

 

[bcbarman]

As a recruiter and an instructor, I know both sides of the story.  The units are responsible for their own attraction and recruiting, and the recruiting center is responsible for processing. 

The disconnect is that CO's of units and the recruiting centers care only for numbers.  Once we stop having raw bodies being the qualifier for funding, we will stop having this "everybody on the bus" syndrome. 

Once the units are allowed to conduct screening of applicants, and the Military Career Councellers can elliminate a person on reasons more than personal history, we will get better candidates.

The current CDS said in a recent interview "the current recruiting process gives us a return of 2.5 to one, for one recruit, it takes 2.5 applicants.  I would like to see that go to 10 to one." 

This is the right direction to go, we do not need a bigger force, we need a better force. 

I am happy to train the 60% of troops that show up, the ones that try and give their all, its the 40% that make me shiver on the range.

Cheers

 

[PJ D-Dog]

The current CDS said in a recent interview "the current recruiting process gives us a return of 2.5 to one, for one recruit, it takes 2.5 applicants.   I would like to see that go to 10 to one."  

This is the right direction to go, we do not need a bigger force, we need a better force.  

From all accounts, the CF is not in a situation where they can pick and choose too much.  LFC tried to go in the direction of quality vs quantity back in 1999.  This move was due to a lack of equipment and funding.  Six years later, they are short 5,000 soldiers and are trying to recruit more.

Given this situation, the solution needs to lie at two levels:  the recruiter and the training.

The recruiter:

a bonus system needs to be in effect in order to give recruiters that extra incentive to go out and FIND the most qualified applicant.  Set the basic criteria and reward recruiters who find applicants who exceed the basics.

The training:

As Matt Fisher pionted out, the training needs to be geared to moulding the recruit as opposed to just training him.  Anyone can go through training and pass the course.  A moulding mechanism needs to be in place where it will shape the recruit's thinking and military perspective.

Moving to a ten to one ratio in a time when the recruiting is not meeting the needs of the CF is a tall order especially in the absence of any mechanisms in place to help achieve this goal.  This is beyond any getting a bonus at signing for the recruit.  In addition, the whole recruiting process needs overhauling, but that is another debate discussed in full in other threads.

PJ D-Dog

 

[Sivad]

OK I'm no were near any of you guys in Rank or Experience, hell I haven't been through BMQ thanks to over numbers, what made me real happy is hearing how many do quite while I couldn't get in.

Anyways I think to help weed out the "not capable" recruits is to simply make the express PT hard as hell, give the NEW recruite a basis for what is to come in BMQ stop this equal rights shit that dumbs down everything so my little Johnny or Suzy can get in.  I for one will not be happy if we do go to war and the soldier beside me is some ADD, Depression or someother kind of bullshit made up disease.  An infantry soldier should be the toughest of the tough.  Maybe make the age limit higher too instead of letting 16 yrs in raise it. 

I'm just throwing sh_t around here sorry for the rant, but I do feel better now  ;D

P.S. regarding the Marines so called excellent screening process wasn't it a marine that shot like 14 people from the Boston university Clock Tower?  basically I guess there is no real way of weeding out all the "bad apples" but the CFRC I think could do a bit better of a job.

Real name with held due to I haven't been to BMQ yet and one of you guys could be my trainer  ;D,

Don't ever worry about me I will make it through anything you Got.  :threat:

 

[swanita]

We need to have tougher regulations in place to stop unfit recruits from entering the system as it's a drain on the military's training buget. Time wasted on a course reteaching / mentoring individual recruits is just that...a waste.  We do get very good troops but on every course I've taught on in the last three years, our problem recruit ratio is getting larger.

I agree, how is it that a recruit can pass the PT test during the recruiting process but when they get on their course....can barely do one push-up?!?! I have also found that quality has gone downwards over the last few years....the sad part is that the ones that do get through are the "top third" of those who applied. Almost scary how some people do get through.  ???  Just my thoughts.

 

[PJ D-Dog]

A physical fitness test is designed to evaluate the applicant's abbility to meet the minimum required physical fitness standard to undertake training.  If the applicant is processed in one month and only sent to training six or eight months later, their ability to perform the minimum standard PT can diminish if they don't keep training. There isn't a different PT standard for each MOC although judging from what is being said in this thread, maybe there should be.

In the Marines, applicants need to meet the basic PT standards in order to ship to boot camp.  This is known as the IST (inital strength test).  The standard is 1.5 mile run under 13.5 minutes, minimum of 5 pull ups and 55 crunches under 2 minutes.  That is not the PT standard in the Marines, it is only the minimum acceptable standard to ship for training.  This has been established to evavluate the applicants ability to follow a progressive PT regiment.  Once at boot camp, all recruits must perform the IST again on day two of processing week.  If the recruit fails to meet the minimum standard, they are not allowed to undertake training.  They are sent to PCP (physical conditioning platoon) where they will do PT every day until they can meet the minimum requirements to start training.

This could be a solution for the CF.  Introduce a PT standard that has to be met prior to the start of training and conducted in the first days of training to reconfirm the recruit's ability to meet the minimum standard.  My thoughts of finding a solution to this issue.

PJ D-Dog

 

[swanita]

If the recruit fails to meet the minimum standard, they are not allowed to undertake training.   They are sent to PCP (physical conditioning platoon) where they will do PT every day until they can meet the minimum requirements to start training.

This could be a solution for the CF.   Introduce a PT standard that has to be met prior to the start of training and conducted in the first days of training to reconfirm the recruit's ability to meet the minimum standard.   My thoughts of finding a solution to this issue.

PJ D-Dog

That sounds like a great idea but i'm sure would get a huge negative response because of the work it would entail & the number of staff that might then need to be involved. But would be one option to ensure the PT level is upkept. Obviously would be even harder on the reserve side of things....do the reserves do anything similar to the marines in the states?

 

[kitrad1]

Just a point for clarification, but fitness evaluations are handled by PSP contracted evaluators. CFRCs don't do the testing.

If you look at the history of recruiting (not just in Canada, but around the world, the tools available are limited, but overall are adequate.

The aptitude test is generally able to weed out the bottom ten per cent of the applicant pool.

The medical examination, which is actually a pretty good tool (I know, people get ticked because of the additional info required)...but it is okay. I would hazzard a guess that this eliminates a significant portion...I'd guess 25%. It probably reflects the overall state of health nationally.

Like the medical, the fitness evaluation probably reflects the state of physical fitness nation-wide and weeds out another ten percent (my guess)

Your frustration is understood....to a point. But there are three sides to every story. Yours is but one. Consider how many Reg F and Reserve NCMs are hired each year and then look at the attrition. My guess is that, depending on the course, the average will be under ten per cent. That's really not too bad.

But, there is a standard, whether or not any of us agrees is not the issue. I have observed many courses of all types where the "standard" is left open to interpretation. Look at the 13 and 16 km marches. I believe that the standard is 2 hours 26 minutes. How many combat arms units insist that sub-units complete it in less than 2? Why have a measurable standard then?Has the time ever been reduced?

I see that I am rambling now, so I'll leave it at that. Personally, I would visit the CFRC and provide them with some feedback. Perhaps these applicants were identified as weak, yet still within the parameters? I know that if I was in their shoes, I'd be interested in knowing who passed, who quit and why.

Just my two cents worth.

 

[PJ D-Dog]

Obviously would be even harder on the reserve side of things....do the reserves do anything similar to the marines in the states?

Marine reservists go through the exact same boot camp and MOS training schools as the active duty Marines do.  I had reservists go through when I went to boot camp and there was no difference that I could tell.  We all start out the same and share in the same culture building experience that boot camp provides.  We have to remember that the US has different laws for reservists than in Canada.

I understand that the whole PT thing would be hard to accomplish at the CF reserve level but it can be done.  The difference is that the onus is placed on the individual soldier to keep up a PT schedule on his own.  Of course this opens a whole can of worms (reservists wanting to be paid to pt at home, what if they get hurt while on their own and can no longer work, who covers it etc..).  I don't really want to discuss that one as it would take a year with all the differing points of view.  I had a bit of that issue taking place when I was in the CF and I resigned myself to the fact that the argument was litterally unwinable.  Hope this answers your question.

PJ D-Dog

 

[kincanucks]

A comment was made about feedback.  Something that the CFRC/Ds don't get on a regular basis and they should. What we do get on a regular basis are comments about where we supposedly screwed up.  A comment that I made when I first joined this site was that the standards are there and they are pretty good and I believe they should be even higher.  The recruiting does do a very good job of weeding out the bad ones but occasionally some will slip through and that is the acceptable risk of doing business.  As previously mentioned, if you look at the statistics of BMQ failures and dropouts overall they are quite low and well in the acceptable limits.

If I had my way every CFRC/D would be equipped with full body scanners at the entrances so we get rid of the flotsam immediately.  Some people are not meant to be in the CF and they take up a lot of time and resources that could be better used for those that do want to be in the CF.  Cheers.

 

[PJ D-Dog]

Anyways I think to help weed out the "not capable" recruits is to simply make the express PT hard as heck, give the NEW recruite a basis for what is to come in BMQ stop this equal rights crap that dumbs down everything so my little Johnny or Suzy can get in.  

If the government was to adopt that kind of a policy, the CF would be even smaller than it is today.   Many of these so called "not capable" recruits sometimes turn out to be fine soldiers once they have been given the training and learned about the military.   I taught some very mediocre recruits in the CF in my day and many of them turned out just fine later on.   We can't throw the baby out with the bath water.   The issue at hand is recruits arriving to BMQ physically unprepared for training although they have passed the basic physical fitness requirement in order to qualify for the armed services.

I for one will not be happy if we do go to war and the soldier beside me is some ADD, Depression or someother kind of bullshit made up disease.   An infantry soldier should be the toughest of the tough.

I really don't think that ADD and depression qualify as a made up disease.   I can understand the frustration of having to deal with a recruit who has this and "why are they even in training" but I wouldn't dissmiss it as being made up.   As for infantry soldiers being the toughest of the tough, well that rules out most of all the grunts that I know.   I dare venture a guess and say you have watched way too many war movies where Hollywood portrays grunts as super tough, bullet stoppers who have more lives than morris the cat.   Your definition of toughest of the tough needs clarification if you are to be taken seriously.

I'm just throwing sh_t around here sorry for the rant, but I do feel better now

You should stop and think before you post otherwise your credibility as a contributor to the forum will be compromised.

P.S. regarding the Marines so called excellent screening process wasn't it a marine that shot like 14 people from the Boston university Clock Tower?   basically I guess there is no real way of weeding out all the "bad apples" but the CFRC I think could do a bit better of a job.

It was actually the Texas State University clock tower at Austin, Texas where a Marine, who had just returned from Vietnam and who was suffering from advanced post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) decided to indiscriminantly shoot people.

This incident has nothing to do with how well the Marines screened their applicants.   This was not a recruit who failed to meet the basic physical fitness requirements to start training.   This was a seasoned combat veteran who did not possess the psychological tools needed to deal with the experience of everyday combat in Vietnam.   If you're going to use an example, use one that is relevant to the topic at hand.

Don't ever worry about me I will make it through anything you Got.

Good.   Try 13 weeks at Parris Island and then 54 days at the School of Infantry and then on to Recon selection.   If you make it through, then come back and gloat.

PJ D-Dog

 

[MCpl Wesite]

First off I'd like to thank all the excellent comments regarding this topic. I'm glad I'm not the only jack out there that feels something needs to be done. The points that I received are:

1. PT tests need to be looked at and changed for the non combat (CF Express) / combat arms (BFT)

2. The interviewer should look at the aptitude test / PT tests and choose 3 trades in which the member qualifies for.

3. A more complete medical test is needed.

4. Better communications between recruiters/units/PSP/medical personnel in regards to candidates.

Now if only the people in charge could get this information.... *looks over a kinscanuck* ;D


Again thanks to all who participated. This post was read 559 times in 4 days!
Off to the field to administer the SQ FTX.  

 

[kitrad1]

[quote author The points that I received are:

1. PT tests need to be looked at and changed for the non combat (CF Express) / combat arms (BFT)

A.  The CFAPFT is a CF wide standard. The Army has the LFC BFT. This is the standard for Army troops. Perhaps the answer is in progressive fitness training worked into a course outline? I'd be the first to agree that fitness ought to be a big part of one's life if they are applying...especially combat arms. The fact is, that for most applicants, fitness is not a big part of their life.

2. The interviewer should look at the aptitude test / PT tests and choose 3 trades in which the member qualifies for.

A.  The interviewer (MCC) does indeed consider the aptitude test, PT test results and additional information in the selection phase of the process. By having the MCC decide which trade a person will go into is wrong. It will create nothing but waste and bitter people who will leave. But on the positive side, Navy numbers would increase!

3. A more complete medical test is needed.

A. You might want to look at some of the other threads with regard to medical. They are pretty complete. What exactly do you mean by a more complete medical examination? Pschiatric assessments? I'm no physician, but I think that the med does filter out a large segment of the applicant population.

4. Better communications between recruiters/units/PSP/medical personnel in regards to candidates.

A. Agreed.....with one observation. Any information regarding an applicant is protected under Federal law, under the provisions of the Privacy Act. Essentially, information regarding an applicant can not always be exchanged. Personally, I think that there needs to be closer integration between reserve recuiters and CFRCs in all aspects (attraction and processing as well as file management). But that's for another time!


[/quote]

 

[MCpl Wesite]

A.   The CFAPFT is a CF wide standard. The Army has the LFC BFT. This is the standard for Army troops. Perhaps the answer is in progressive fitness training worked into a course outline? I'd be the first to agree that fitness ought to be a big part of one's life if they are applying...especially combat arms. The fact is, that for most applicants, fitness is not a big part of their life.

currently the reserves only have CF Express as there sole PT standard. I want CF Express for non combat arms and BFT for Combat Arms.

3. A more complete medical test is needed.

A. You might want to look at some of the other threads with regard to medical. They are pretty complete. What exactly do you mean by a more complete medical examination? Pschiatric assessments? I'm no physician, but I think that the med does filter out a large segment of the applicant population.

when candiates arrive on course with medical problems then there's something wrong with the medical exam. The medics should be allowed to look at the candidates' past civial medical file. That way we don't have to take the members word that he does have a mental / physical problem that could effect saftey.