Chest Rig vs Tac vest

[mudgunner49]

Aside from the obvious answer, why is a reservist going overseas to a war zone to begin with, a more appropriate answer would be what is your role? I mean no offence by my first comment (jeez, what is the army coming to when you have to worry about offending people).

The same thing tht the Regular  Force is doing - lots of good experience out there in the Reserves my friend.  When the Regs require aumentees they don't go looking at Tim Horton's for likely candidates...
Like I said, it is determined by your role. Are you a rifleman, a C9 gunner, a C6 gunner? Of course it is by personal preference, but that is more of a comfort value. The obvious choice is modular. Make it so you can attach and detach pouches as you see fit. If you go with a vest then you naturally have less room since you have to leave the back open for your ruck sack or patrol pack. If on day patrols then a detachable rear back pouch is one option but keep in mind of water IE. camel back. Just go with a separate patrol pack although less comfortable.

The other option is a webbing style. Although it is unpopular it may be what your looking for. Modular or fixed it can alleviate some problems and it will carry more and interfere less with a back pack. Some like it. Some don't. You can consider it.

Try wearing a TV or even a chest rig in a jungle environment - gets old fast as you need more ventilation.  The "old" LBE with belt, suspenders and belt-mounted pouches is still the best...
Whatever your choice, flexibility is the key. You are no doubt aware the TV is grossly inadequate. The bigger question is wether or not you are allowed to wear it.

 

[Grunt]

To be honest, ive tried several vests and didnt like them at all.  The setup im thinking of going to is a molle webbing setup, with Eagle H Harness suspenders, some kind of Molle modular belt, 2 HSG Mag pouches for C7 mags,  radio pouch, TT large utility pouch, rollypolly dump pouch, eagle LRRP buttpack, and a TT util pouch.  I actually tried this setup with my old 82 patt suspenders and belt, and if the eagle buttpack is worn low on the belt, it mates up with a ruck pretty well, almost as good as the British PLCE webbing I picked up.   

 

[NATO Boy]

To be honest, ive tried several vests and didnt like them at all.  The setup im thinking of going to is a molle webbing setup, with Eagle H Harness suspenders, some kind of Molle modular belt, 2 HSG Mag pouches for C7 mags,  radio pouch, TT large utility pouch, rollypolly dump pouch, eagle LRRP buttpack, and a TT util pouch.  I actually tried this setup with my old 82 patt suspenders and belt, and if the eagle buttpack is worn low on the belt, it mates up with a ruck pretty well, almost as good as the British PLCE webbing I picked up.   

Not to pee in your wheaties, but.....did you try any of the vests while wearing a frag vest or plate carrier? You might find vests to ride better than webbing when using FPVs or PCs. The one thing I like about the issue TV is how it sits on a frag vest a bit better compared to the 82 Pat Webbing; those who had crappy belt buckles or constantly found themselves using hockey tape on the suspenders will know what I mean...

Mickey

 

[NL_engineer]

Try wearing a TV or even a chest rig in a jungle environment - gets old fast as you need more ventilation.  The "old" LBE with belt, suspenders and belt-mounted pouches is still the best...

How much difference is there going to be when you are wearing a Frag-Vest ???

 

[vonGarvin]

Realising that the issue Tac vest is a piece of junk, I thought id start a discussion on viable alternatives. Ive been discussing this alot with people back at my home unit and in other forums. Id like to hear from some of the infantry types who have been overseas using the different systems. what do you think of a chest rig vs maybe a modular tac vest? Ive been thinking about what to buy myself when I go over, assuming im driving a G wagon on patrols what do you think would be the best option?

First of all, your premise is flawed.  Now, I know that I'm only a desk jockey (now), but I've worn the TV on several FTXs and on two operations.  The TV fills the need for the majority of the combat arms.  Unless you're a reservist going over on black ops with the JTF-2, save your money.  A "gucci" Chest Rig won't save your life or make you more comfortable.  If you're driving a G Wagen on patrols, wear the TV.  It's issue, it's free, it's replaceable, and consider the source of some of your replies: merchandisers.  That should tell you something.

WRT footwear, if the issue boots don't cut the bill for you, get a chit and get them free of charge.  If you're not able to, forget about it, because if you injure yourself whilst wearing non-authorised gear, and that gear is found to be part of the problem (note: not necessarily the cause, but simply part of the problem), you will NOT be covered.

As for someone asking "why" are reservists going overseas?  Short answer: because they too are soldiers and if you've seen the ORBAT for the infantry section, for example, you'll realise that there are two reservists slotted for every rifle section.  It's not "us" vs "them", but "one big happy family"

But seriously, in my professional opinion, any money you spend on a gucci chest rig will be a waste.  Buy stuff that you will need: extra socks.  extra underwear.  books.  Pencils.  envelopes.  etc etc etc.

 

[Grunt]

Good point Mickey

Im probably going to go with the SO Tech Hellcat Mk3 chest rig with a camelback, its a KISS looking rig and the 6 integral magazine pouches to help cut down on bulkiness. 

 

[Kal]

Why anyone would want to wear the issue TV that is barely adequate, when something else superior in design and function is available, is beyond me.  To say that the TV is adequate is quite a stretch, nonetheless. 

Good gear will assist you and should help in the effectiveness of your actions.  The extra seconds saved by speed and ease when drawing a fresh mag from a quality rig rather than the TV can save your life.  Is spending a few hundred bucks worth it?  To some, obviously not, but to others that realise quality gear can help you fight more effectively and can save your ***, it more than worth it.  Even if it is just for one tour.  Besides, should you choose to attend some extra-curricular courses, you sure can use it then. 

You're not fighting alone either.  Your covering your buddies and they're entrusting their lives to you, wouldn't you want to fight the most effectively for them also?

 

[Britney Spears]

Buy stuff that you will need: extra socks.  extra underwear.  books.  Pencils.  envelopes.  etc etc etc.

Hmm, I've never had a problem getting THOSE items through the supply system. The friendly staff over in stores have always been more than happy to supply me with all the socks and pencils I ask for, and the issued socks and undies are actually good, too. I don't know how I ever got out of bed before we got the coolmax undies.

You and I must not be in the same army........

I still can't understand the constant derisiveness towards JTF-2. JTF-2 does a lot of PT ( I know, I saw the PPT), but since I'm not in JTF-2 there's no reaon for me to do PT or aspire to their standards, right?

 

[vonGarvin]

You and I must not be in the same army........

Same uniform, different army.  Maybe.

I still can't understand the constant derisiveness towards JTF-2. JTF-2 does a lot of PT ( I know, I saw the PPT), but since I'm not in JTF-2 there's no reaon for me to do PT or aspire to their standards, right?

No derisiveness towards JTF-2, CSOR or any other organisation intended.  You can aspire to their standards, and even exceed them if you wish.  In fact, that should be encouraged in my opinion.  Having said that, the current standard for non-JTF-2 lads isn't quite the same.  Ever wonder why?

 

[KevinB]

Quite simply the TV was designed with a Bosnia type PSO in mind.  It works for non combat operations, and somewhat for support pers in operations.

Kit can be tailored for the mission - but one thing with the Chest Rigs and Vest etc - the fact you will have to be able to fire from the prone position MUST be taken into account.

99% of the rigs out their are VERY middle bulky - and make getting a decent prone (one to both return fire effectively and also to be in a position of cover and not look like a dog humping a football.)

The same rig that is effective while humping thru the moutains, will/may not be effective when driving a GWagon, or kicking doors and burning villages  in urban combat.

For ME I have found an intergrated rig (Eagle CIRAS, Paraclete RAV, Diamondback Predator etc.) works the best - but I am in and out of vehicles and need to be set up to kick doors (and sit around watching movies, or surfing the net  too ).

I did not even bring my TV to Afghan for Athena - I quickly realised in pre-training it did not meet my needs -- however I found out rather unfortunately that the DHTC Patrol Vest AND the DHTC Chest Rig did not work in the fricking Toyota Surf and Nissan Terrano while driving - over the CF issued PBA. 

That led me to trying a shitload of gear - and settling on the Paraclete RAV - however due to the fact it won't take the CF soft armour inserts it will be a no-go for many in the CF (other than guys issued it..)

The same fiasco that I had - will be had by M203 Grenadiers, C9 Gunners and C6 Gunners and everyone that does not carry just a rifle/carbine.  Quite clearly some sort of MOLLE overvest would allow the pers to configure the setup for them - in the mission and role they are slotted into, in fact I beleive their are a few companies that are trying to make a PBA cover that is of MOLLE setup. - And again vehicle crews have different needs for they have to drive/command/gun the system in Armour - yet have no room for a vest at the same time.

 

[vonGarvin]

Quite simply the TV was designed with a Bosnia type PSO in mind.  It works for non combat operations, and somewhat for support pers in operations.

From the propaganda site ("clothe the soldier")
"Concept of Use – Improved accessibility and weight distribution for ammunition and combat stores. The TV has been designed to sustain the soldier for short duration periods of between eight hours and twenty-four hours. As the basic component of the CTS Load Carriage System (LCS), the TV will fully integrate with the other components of the LCS: the Small Pack System (SPS) and the Rucksack. The TV may be worn over current combat clothing, the middle layer of the Improved Environmental Clothing System (IECS), and with or without the CTS Fragmentation Protective Vest (including the CTS Ballistic Plates)."
What I've highlighted is obviously my emphasis.  It is designed for short duration and meant to integrate with other elements of the "LCS".  It was not designed with PSO of any kind in mind.  It was designed for combat operations.  Now, is it the best thing out there?  Of course not.  But, as some have suggested should be done was in fact done for the TV: trialed and tested by combat arms.  I don't have the results, but on the DIN check out LFTEU and see what their recommendations were: who knows?  Maybe they had something else in mind and the manufacturer of the issued TV is in "someone's" riding (tongue in cheek)

 

[KevinB]

;D

You should work in CTS.  The fact they built it around 4 mags on the vest makes it a Bosnia (post war) vest. 

I was not specifically badmouthing the TV in my previous post - I was just attempting to remind troops before they spend their hard earned (unlike my quite easily earned) dollars they should sit back and do a combat estimate for what they want out of a vest - keeping in mind tactical requirements as well.

Having been around the "town" a bit recently I would not go out in Kandahar with a TV - as I think they are tactically unsound.

 

[NL_engineer]

Having been around the "town" a bit recently I would not go out in Kandahar with a TV - as I think they are tactically unsound.

Are you referring to the issued TV/ other fixed TV's ???

 

[vonGarvin]

;D
You should work in CTS.  The fact they built it around 4 mags on the vest makes it a Bosnia (post war) vest. 

PLEASE don't tell my career manager that, or God Knows I'll end up there! 

4 mags + 1 on rifle has been a standard issue since God Knows When (for one days' worth of combat).  It can, with the issued insert, carry another 10.  As I've said before, 300 rounds ready for a rifleman is a hell of a lot of ammunition.  And remember this is for 8-24 hours.  Anything more than that, and other Load Bearing Equipment would be required.  But, as I've said before (and saying again for newcomers) is that you can only put so much meat on a sandwich before it falls apart.

 

[Britney Spears]

The next person who says "The TV is fine for support troops/non-combat arms" should be put on C&P.

CSS troops DO NOT NEED WEBBING to carry on with their work, I just went to the orderly room and suprisingly enough none of the clerks were wearing their webbing at their desks, and none of the maintainers were wearing webbing while crawling under vehicles either. Were the cooks at the mess hall wearing webbing while slinging potatoes at you? There is no webbing or ammo involved in any of these jobs. Webbing is used to carry ammo, water and radios for FIGHTING and it doesn't matter who is wearing it. So no, the TV is not "fine for CSS troops", because CSS troops are not better shots or more bullet proof than cbt arms troops and the Taliban doesn't really care what your trade is. It absolutely boggles the mind why anyone other than infantry, armoured and engineers would be providing any "input" into the design of our webbing(I'm sure the gunners and meatheads can design seperate 105mm pouches and timmies cup holders on their own).

 

[Fusaki]

The TV... ...was designed for combat operations.

Then why can't a C9 gunner carry his combat load of ammo (1 box on the weapon and 2 in the vest) and water at the same time? (As far as I know, only a few of us got the one-time issue camelbaks.) Does anyone else see this is a serious flaw in design?

I always felt that ammo and water were fairly important to "combat operations"... /sarcasm

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

vonGarvin haven't seen you in the "Stop the kit issue and let soldiers buy their own." thread lately
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/41731.30.html

 

[KevinB]

VonG -- Fact is you have not been in Combat or unless my Royal snitches are horribly incorrect you comments on combat are worth about what I pay for them - NOTHING.

I have killed before - I take my job very seriously and as a result I can tell you that your TV is a PIECE OF CRAP for combat operations - end stop.  I honestly am gettting sick of your bullshit responces to this issue - you sound like a careerist scum sucking tool.

There are a few folk on this board who have been in a gunfight or two.  The fact that the Patricia's in Kandahar are chosing to carry that number of mags is based upon the fact they are there doing the job - and your not.

The fact that you have never fired a round in anger gives me the idea that you have no idea how hard it is to shoot at people - that move, are in low light conditions, are under cover etc.  Unlike the PWT people dont act like Fig11's -- rounds get expended.  Plus some people take a lot of rounds -- I know of a specific target that took 11 round of C77 ball from a C8CQB under 20M - he was eventually headshot.

So I put it to you PLEASE SHUT THE FUCK UP.


Brit -- the point is that CSS folk dont go looking for the EN - they react if nec to the EN - but are not in the CLOSE WITH AND DESTROY job description - the fact that a majority of CSS convoys drive out (at best speed) of ambushes and evac the area instead of counter attacking.


MODS - yes I am full of loathe for VonG.  - I will accept a verbal or whatever - but the guy is a shithead.

 

[Britney Spears]

Brit -- the point is that CSS folk dont go looking for the EN - they react if nec to the EN - but are not in the CLOSE WITH AND DESTROY job description - the fact that a majority of CSS convoys drive out (at best speed) of ambushes and evac the area instead of counter attacking.

Eh, so what? That's not a reason to carry less ammo or to have crap webbing.  If that clerk gets to the point where she needs to change mags, I'm sure her job description will be the last thing she's worried about. ;D

Point being webbing has only 3 purposes in life: 1) Carry ammo and water and chocy bars to kill the enemy(infantry), 2)Carry stuff to blow stuff up with(engineer) 2)Still fit in the hatch without getting stuck(armd ).

THere is no such thing as webbing for cooks or clerks, so no input from clerks or cooks is required.

 

[KevinB]

Brit - yes - but...

You have a system that is just starting to accept that the 4 + 1 mag loadout is not acceptable (the Inf School/CTS  knew pre 2004 since the 6B that spring trialed the plastic insert for the TV) - then you have VG type people who beleive that Napoleonic doctrine is better, or the MND and Unk C/S who think that the FN C1A1 is still in service...

I don't think that any CSS troop or unit will ever get issued 10 mags for the rifle/carbine and 4+ mags for the pistol.  Unfortunate - since in Asymetrical Warfare it is the CSS troops that often become Infanteers out of circumstance.

However I think fighting and winning the battle for the Infanteers to get a reasonable amount of mags and an appropriate load bearing emsemble is job number 1.