Close Quarter Combat (CQC) [Merged]
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Ah yes, Shito-Ryu (or my case, Itosu-Kai) - it‘s a fine sport style, but for a down and dirty bar fight, there is some room for improvement. The only thing I can say about TKD is it looks neat.. but so does aikedo. What I see is when your *** is on the line, the only rule is WIN.
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At our unit, every few weeks, a qualified instructor (dont know if that‘s civi qualified or military) teaches us three or four moves of hand-to-hand (once again, not sure what type). He says that by the end of the year, we will all have our basic level one qualification in hand-to-hand. Just wondering... is that a qualification that would show up as a military qualification?
:warstory: J. Lightfoot
:warstory: J. Lightfoot
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I doubt it Hulk, maybe you should ask who he is, what is quals are, and what exactly is he teaching you. Franko now that‘s what I am talking about. Ninjutsu, (what I studied) is fairly similar to Jujitsu and Judo, except there are no comps, but it all about fighting to win (within the law of course 
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True, but the man moved pretty fast...enough for me to really be worried. Clocked me a couple of times before I got in nice and close. It sobered me up pretty good as soon as I got the first hit on the ol‘ chin...the second one in the ribs.Originally posted by RoyalHighlandFusilier:
[qb] Franko, the guy was drunk. Surely you can‘t count this fight as a fair test of martial arts.[/qb]
We were both drunk...him a bit more than me.
So I can agree it wasn‘t a fully sober fight...but you know when most fights start it isn‘t straight on and sober as a judge type people. It‘s usually someone being a jerk and wants to be the "big man".
He started the fight. I finished it. I was always have been told the fight isn‘t done until the agressor is either unconcious, under control(arm bars or breaks), or worst case......
Regards
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Geoff
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Hi guys. First post, been lurking about a year but this is a topic I know something about as I coach martial artists of all levels. Seems like a good first post topic for me.
First off most martial arts are not trained with any significant level of contact. Imagine training against an enemy who is always cooperating with you! For a realistic assessment of what works you need to train / compete against a resisting opponent. Judo, boxing, wrestling, bjj and a few others are perfect for this. Some, like WTF TKD do train full contact but have so little to do with an actual fight that the attributes you‘re learning may even have a negative affect on you‘re fighting ability. The most effective way to test you‘re hand to hand skills is to compete in a combative sport. Right now mixed martial arts is clearly the king of the pack in that regard (think UFC/Pride or for Cdn. events UCC, AFC, WEF) and this is where you will find the best fighters in the world (hand to hand). The mysterious kung fu / ninjitsu master would have a tough time lasting a full minute with a competent mma fighter.
Now, that said this type of unarmed combat isn‘t a terribly good thing for military personnel to train. As previously mentioned if you‘re that close you probably haven‘t done you‘re job. Training a skill that at best is secondary to the thousands of other things needed to be an effective soldier does not seem a wise decision. Also the injury rate for a serious combat sports competitor is so high IMO military personnel would be doing themselves and the men around them a disservice as they would likely be ineffective for significant periods due to injury.
Franko, if I remember correctly you're in Victoria. Are you training at Peterec's or with Adam Z? Either way both are great places from what I hear.
First off most martial arts are not trained with any significant level of contact. Imagine training against an enemy who is always cooperating with you! For a realistic assessment of what works you need to train / compete against a resisting opponent. Judo, boxing, wrestling, bjj and a few others are perfect for this. Some, like WTF TKD do train full contact but have so little to do with an actual fight that the attributes you‘re learning may even have a negative affect on you‘re fighting ability. The most effective way to test you‘re hand to hand skills is to compete in a combative sport. Right now mixed martial arts is clearly the king of the pack in that regard (think UFC/Pride or for Cdn. events UCC, AFC, WEF) and this is where you will find the best fighters in the world (hand to hand). The mysterious kung fu / ninjitsu master would have a tough time lasting a full minute with a competent mma fighter.
Now, that said this type of unarmed combat isn‘t a terribly good thing for military personnel to train. As previously mentioned if you‘re that close you probably haven‘t done you‘re job. Training a skill that at best is secondary to the thousands of other things needed to be an effective soldier does not seem a wise decision. Also the injury rate for a serious combat sports competitor is so high IMO military personnel would be doing themselves and the men around them a disservice as they would likely be ineffective for significant periods due to injury.
Franko, if I remember correctly you're in Victoria. Are you training at Peterec's or with Adam Z? Either way both are great places from what I hear.
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You made some good point Geoff, but you have to take into account that the kinda of fighting you are talking about is as close to streetfight you can get in an artificial environmnet. There are differences. 1 from what I seen recently in the UFC competitions is no one wears gi‘s any more as that make you vulnerable to chokes. Real world unless you are on beach or something chances are you are going to be wearing a shirt. 2 They still have a have ref, real world does not. 3 they still have "rules", no biting, eye gouching. real world does not. 3 they are in a ring with a padded floor, real world does not. And it is Ninjutsu/Ninpo and the "masters" are not mysterious.
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Heh. Thumb in the eye, knee to the balls, kick to the side of the knee. It‘s all good.
Since every little fight/sparring situation I just know guys want to try to rape the little Asian boy and want to shoot in and take me to the ground, I just love giving a knee to the face.
Since every little fight/sparring situation I just know guys want to try to rape the little Asian boy and want to shoot in and take me to the ground, I just love giving a knee to the face.
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Geoff - Interesting you should say that. I used to train at Peterec‘s but my current school schedule conflicts so I‘m on hiatus. Hoping to return in May.
I learned a lot of fun things in the Infantry, I‘ve personally always been big on pressure points and breaking anything I can get my hands on. People don‘t seem to like that. I‘m not a small guy though (6‘4") and I find that avoiding any time on the ground is beneficial, but if I do end up there, then I grapple and use the techniques I mentioned earlier (pressure/break flailing fingers) to put a stop to any horsing around.
I‘ve experimented w/ Ninjitsu & Hun Fut, but for me Kickboxing is my preferred path. I find that taking the hits really wakes you the **** up in the morning. Incorporating grapples and holds balances things out, and don‘t forget to include the satisfaction that comes from taking aggressions (against CFRC? ) out upon a bag for awhile.
I learned a lot of fun things in the Infantry, I‘ve personally always been big on pressure points and breaking anything I can get my hands on. People don‘t seem to like that. I‘m not a small guy though (6‘4") and I find that avoiding any time on the ground is beneficial, but if I do end up there, then I grapple and use the techniques I mentioned earlier (pressure/break flailing fingers) to put a stop to any horsing around.
I‘ve experimented w/ Ninjitsu & Hun Fut, but for me Kickboxing is my preferred path. I find that taking the hits really wakes you the **** up in the morning. Incorporating grapples and holds balances things out, and don‘t forget to include the satisfaction that comes from taking aggressions (against CFRC?
) out upon a bag for awhile.
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Geoff
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Falcon - 1) that‘s true about gi‘s. IMO you need to train both for effective self defence. But you need to train with them at full speed, full contact. Hence my mentioning of bjj (current) and judo (have trained).
2) ref? - so you train full out to the death? A ref is there to a) enforce the rules and b) stop a fight if someone is incapable of defending himself. Granted in the street you don‘t have that but how precisely do you train more effectively? Kata, bunkai?
3) biting and eye gouging works great (as do illegals like small joint locks and grabbing a mans‘s nuts) but do not make the mistake in thinking that many non-tested "fighters" make assuming "hey, I‘ll just poke him in the eye if he wants to throw me." If you‘ve just been double legged, mounted and have elbows raining down in you‘re face none of those things are any use. A properly trained fighter knows how to do these things. Clearly, testing oneself should not include maiming a person but in my experience martial artists who don‘t fight full contact have no idea of what real fights are like... especially against a skilled opponent.
Apologies about the "mysterious" comment. I see you‘re from T.O. Plenty of places around to test out you‘re belief systems re: martial arts. If you‘d like I can reccomend a good, friendly school to test things out at. *Please note this is no challenge.
Franko - cool about Petawawa. Good bjj out in Ottawa not too mention some sweet judo and sambo. If you don‘t mind me asking who are you training with?
2) ref? - so you train full out to the death? A ref is there to a) enforce the rules and b) stop a fight if someone is incapable of defending himself. Granted in the street you don‘t have that but how precisely do you train more effectively? Kata, bunkai?
3) biting and eye gouging works great (as do illegals like small joint locks and grabbing a mans‘s nuts) but do not make the mistake in thinking that many non-tested "fighters" make assuming "hey, I‘ll just poke him in the eye if he wants to throw me." If you‘ve just been double legged, mounted and have elbows raining down in you‘re face none of those things are any use. A properly trained fighter knows how to do these things. Clearly, testing oneself should not include maiming a person but in my experience martial artists who don‘t fight full contact have no idea of what real fights are like... especially against a skilled opponent.
Apologies about the "mysterious" comment. I see you‘re from T.O. Plenty of places around to test out you‘re belief systems re: martial arts. If you‘d like I can reccomend a good, friendly school to test things out at. *Please note this is no challenge.
Franko - cool about Petawawa. Good bjj out in Ottawa not too mention some sweet judo and sambo. If you don‘t mind me asking who are you training with?
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Geoff
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Enzo - Peterec‘s guys a super cool. I‘ve worked doing interviews and commentary for a small show in Edmonton and got a chance to meet Stan and have spend some time with Chris Peak. Good, tough cats. I think Chris is about to hit it big in the lhw division.
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No, you misunderstood me. I don‘t suggest people train to the death, or poke out each others eyes. I was just high lighting the differences between the real world and UFC. And I already now of some schools. I trained at a ninjutsu club for a year and I plan on going back once I get my finances in order, I also plan on checking out Russain Martials Arts in Thornhill.
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I‘m currently training with a Sensi who is deployed here in Bosnia...he intro‘d me to JJ and I‘m loving it, it‘s just a bit hard on the body.
Don‘t ever remember Shitu-ryu being this hard on me when I was a kid
His Dojo is.......
Sorry for the smoke effects but I prefer to leave some things private. Hope you understand Geoff
Regards
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Geoff,
To a certain extent, you are right. As soldiers, if we are resorting to h2h combat, the proverbial crap has hit the fan and something has gone seriously wrong. But also, as soldiers, ignoring the possibility that you may have to choke the enemy to death is dangerous. I take this view for a number of reasons:
1) As soldiers, our job is focused aggression. If we are focused, but not aggressive, we lose and die. If we are aggressive, but not focused, we lose and are dangerous to each other. I find this fundamentally identical to your various forms of real world fighting (ie grappling).
2) As soldiers, we have to prepare for every possibility and examining previous conflicts will show that at times, soldiers had to resort to using their bayonets, helmets, and whatever else came in handy. As I‘m sure you know, street fighting rarely follows a script. Neither does war.
3) As soldiers, we have to be desensitized to killing. It is not in our nature to kill other humans (some may disagree). Which is why militaries have spent millions of dollars learning how they can get their soldiers past the psychology burden of killing. Shooting square targets from 100m out won‘t do this. Getting two troops on a mat fighting it out, short of killing each other, in my opinion is very effective in teaching soldiers that war is not pretty. You may have to end up killing a guy face to face.
4) It‘s great for physical conditioning. Ask the Brits about milling.
With regards to your point that practicing h2h fighting could be dangerous, well our job, by it‘s nature, is hazardous to our health. I can think of dozens of situations in training where I can potentially injure myself (and at times, I have). If I were always concerned with injuring my knee, breaking an arm, or getting cut up, I may as well quit right now. Obviously, a certain level of restraint must be instilled so that we aren‘t just injuring each other.
Again, I‘m not saying the military should drop everything and focus on h2h combat. But it should have it‘s place in training, especially the combat arms.
To a certain extent, you are right. As soldiers, if we are resorting to h2h combat, the proverbial crap has hit the fan and something has gone seriously wrong. But also, as soldiers, ignoring the possibility that you may have to choke the enemy to death is dangerous. I take this view for a number of reasons:
1) As soldiers, our job is focused aggression. If we are focused, but not aggressive, we lose and die. If we are aggressive, but not focused, we lose and are dangerous to each other. I find this fundamentally identical to your various forms of real world fighting (ie grappling).
2) As soldiers, we have to prepare for every possibility and examining previous conflicts will show that at times, soldiers had to resort to using their bayonets, helmets, and whatever else came in handy. As I‘m sure you know, street fighting rarely follows a script. Neither does war.
3) As soldiers, we have to be desensitized to killing. It is not in our nature to kill other humans (some may disagree). Which is why militaries have spent millions of dollars learning how they can get their soldiers past the psychology burden of killing. Shooting square targets from 100m out won‘t do this. Getting two troops on a mat fighting it out, short of killing each other, in my opinion is very effective in teaching soldiers that war is not pretty. You may have to end up killing a guy face to face.
4) It‘s great for physical conditioning. Ask the Brits about milling.
With regards to your point that practicing h2h fighting could be dangerous, well our job, by it‘s nature, is hazardous to our health. I can think of dozens of situations in training where I can potentially injure myself (and at times, I have). If I were always concerned with injuring my knee, breaking an arm, or getting cut up, I may as well quit right now. Obviously, a certain level of restraint must be instilled so that we aren‘t just injuring each other.
Again, I‘m not saying the military should drop everything and focus on h2h combat. But it should have it‘s place in training, especially the combat arms.
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Geoff
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Franko - no problem. Totally understand. Just happy to see someone loving the jits.
Falcon - cool you‘re looking into Sambo (I assume). My guys (bjj and judo) have always got along really well with Sosnovskikh and team (no one else around so I assume it‘s him or a student of his). Very good leg locks and really nice guys.
If you‘re in the Thornhill area I highly suggest checking out Shah Franco martial arts. Shah has been a mentor and a coach of mine for many years and trains everything from professional mma fighters to police hand to hand instructors.
Anyways, getting off topic I suppose. Cheers.
Falcon - cool you‘re looking into Sambo (I assume). My guys (bjj and judo) have always got along really well with Sosnovskikh and team (no one else around so I assume it‘s him or a student of his). Very good leg locks and really nice guys.
If you‘re in the Thornhill area I highly suggest checking out Shah Franco martial arts. Shah has been a mentor and a coach of mine for many years and trains everything from professional mma fighters to police hand to hand instructors.
Anyways, getting off topic I suppose. Cheers.
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It‘s not Sambo, It‘s called Russain Martial Art(s) or The System or Systema. It is taught by an ex Spetznaz guy, and it is their (Spetznaz) system of fighting. It‘s tactics look a little weird but, from what I have seen and read they are quite effective and brutal. If you want to check it out the website is www.russainmartialart.com
Regards
I Live in Scarborough
Regards
I Live in Scarborough
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Geoff
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Interesting points gate guard. Not being military I‘m not really sure about what the job entails so I was being on the conservative side. Personally I would love to see mma (+ gi‘s) being taught to the military but I‘m not sure if it‘s because it makes sense or because my love of mma had clouded my vision.
On the JTF video floating around the net you can clearly see them training mma style.
On the JTF video floating around the net you can clearly see them training mma style.
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Geoff
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Falcon - I‘ve trained with Systema guys a few times. Similar to Krav Maga in fashion although I won‘t pretend to know too much about it.
My advice is to check out a few schools to see what fits you best. Rebellion martial arts just opened in Scarborough - I highly reccomend trying a class with them. Biggest mistake I see most guys make is read about things and make their decisions without actually testing the school out. I‘m out for a while, gotta get back to work.
My advice is to check out a few schools to see what fits you best. Rebellion martial arts just opened in Scarborough - I highly reccomend trying a class with them. Biggest mistake I see most guys make is read about things and make their decisions without actually testing the school out. I‘m out for a while, gotta get back to work.
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