CMMA - replacing the CP140 Aurora

[AvroArrow92]

How often do maint have to do egress currency? If they don’t turn a wrench in 30 days, do they need a STF by a STDs quald person to get them current again? Minimum flight and sim hours every 30 days? Quarterly? Semi and annual currency requirements?

The tail chase aircrew deal with re: quals and cureenies adds up quicky in terms of work days; I know flyers who are Class A and it eats up a lot of their time they aren’t flying, so this is where I struggle to understand how a “off the street” reservist in an aircrew trade would be a viable option for the RCAF.

Unless the answer is “lower the requirements and/or standards to which I think the answer is “absolutely not”.



Armour officers join to command armoured forces; but they are also officers and have non-field related duties. Same can be said for many classifications.

Back to trg; using P-8 reserve pilots. MOAT is about 6 months long full time. How would this look for a West Jet pilot who comes to the reserves and still has to fly their Company hours monthly?

As you said, the idea would take huge resources and time. To me, the potential juice is not worth the squeeze here.

Simulators are exactly that; simulators “a trg aide”. They have their limitations and can’t replace flying. “more simulation” isn’t the golden answer to the RCAF issues.

They are not training aids they are the training. The difference between a full motion sim on 737 and the real thing is minimal. I’ve know because I’ve seen it.

Most airlines require a line doc training after sim of 50-100 hours. To get comfortable with operation and understand some difference between sim and plane.

Personally I have three type ratings including a 330 type rating. I’ve flown everywhere from the High Arctic to Africa. All that training for those aircraft was in the sim prior to line and doc.

If I for example took a on reserve role on the P8 or MRTT I’m sure I would require additional training but a full wings course doubtful. The civilian world has moved on from just live training the RCAF needs to as well.

I’ve seen ex RCAF guys who could barely program a fms or understand crm, but ya they could fly the bird. The space shuttle training never involved a practice re-entry did that make those pilots any less ready?

Training has evolved and so to the RCAF must as well. However I doubt it will, especially with the current thought process of NDHQ 1950 mentality.

 

[childs56]

They are not training aids they are the training. The difference between a full motion sim on 737 and the real thing is minimal. I’ve know because I’ve seen it.

Most airlines require a line doc training after sim of 50-100 hours. To get comfortable with operation and understand some difference between sim and plane.

Personally I have three type ratings including a 330 type rating. I’ve flown everywhere from the High Arctic to Africa. All that training for those aircraft was in the sim prior to line and doc.

If I for example took a on reserve role on the P8 or MRTT I’m sure I would require additional training but a full wings course doubtful. The civilian world has moved on from just live training the RCAF needs to as well.

I’ve seen ex RCAF guys who could barely program a fms or understand crm, but ya they could fly the bird. The space shuttle training never involved a practice re-entry did that make those pilots any less ready?

Training has evolved and so to the RCAF must as well. However I doubt it will, especially with the current thought process of NDHQ 1950 mentality.

Well said.
To add most Modern Militarys have heavily incorporated Simulation training in every aspect of flight ops.

 

[Zoomie]

Well said.
To add most Modern Militarys have heavily incorporated Simulation training in every aspect of flight ops.

To be clear - the RCAF uses simulation to a high degree during Phase 3 and OTU training. We are not an outlier in this respect.

Learning to fly an airplane from point A to point B in a structured environment at flight levels is rather simple. You can go down to the States, pay $5k and come away with a 737-NG type rating.

 

[Mick]

To be clear - the RCAF uses simulation to a high degree during Phase 3 and OTU training. We are not an outlier in this respect.

Learning to fly an airplane from point A to point B in a structured environment at flight levels is rather simple. You can go down to the States, pay $5k and come away with a 737-NG type rating.

Yes, you can buy a type rating if you already possess the requisite license (CPL or ATPL), which in turn have their own respective experience requirements.

5K for ground school and sim time? Did you mean to type 50K?

 

[Good2Golf]

They are not training aids they are the training. The difference between a full motion sim on 737 and the real thing is minimal. I’ve know because I’ve seen it.

Most airlines require a line doc training after sim of 50-100 hours. To get comfortable with operation and understand some difference between sim and plane.

Personally I have three type ratings including a 330 type rating. I’ve flown everywhere from the High Arctic to Africa. All that training for those aircraft was in the sim prior to line and doc.

If I for example took a on reserve role on the P8 or MRTT I’m sure I would require additional training but a full wings course doubtful. The civilian world has moved on from just live training the RCAF needs to as well.

Awesome, so as Zoomie also noted, you’ve done A to B via C (d, E, etc.) from runway to runway along airways or RNP/RNAV waypoints. Thats great for raw airframeology to move the platform and deal with procedural and system malfunctions and emergencies. That’s a great place for simplified simulation to help training (although I question your ‘it IS the training’ suggestion. Hey, I get the 100% simulation before first revenue flight thing, and FSims have come a long way since the 80s/90s when I first flew in them, but super-realistic

I’ve seen ex RCAF guys who could barely program a fms or understand crm, but ya they could fly the bird. The space shuttle training never involved a practice re-entry did that make those pilots any less ready?

I’d say that’s either a shortcoming in the training or the RCAF pilot may not have flown a platform with a modern FMS….although is also raises the question of whether the receiving airline indoc program was sufficient if the candidate can’t program an FMS or use CRM principles properly.

Training has evolved and so to the RCAF must as well. However I doubt it will, especially with the current thought process of NDHQ 1950 mentality.

Well said.
To add most Modern Militarys have heavily incorporated Simulation training in every aspect of flight ops.

So do either of you know the degree to which RCAF has integrated simulation into full-spectrum training (and currency/proficiency maintenance)?

I flew a fair bit of Level D sim before setting foot in a modern highly automated aircraft, then refined operational (tactical-level) employment with same-type CGF as well as interacting with other-platform real/linked FSims via HLA or DIS networks, and that-type CGF and adversary forces and weapon threat systems, as well in a blended, multi-domain multi-platform complex simulated environment. Do different airlines link their FSims to conduct real-time interactive training with multiple real simulator platforms and NPCs?

To be clear - the RCAF uses simulation to a high degree during Phase 3 and OTU training. We are not an outlier in this respect.

Learning to fly an airplane from point A to point B in a structured environment at flight levels is rather simple. You can go down to the States, pay $5k and come away with a 737-NG type rating.

This, on several RCAF fleets, and more coming.

 

[Good2Golf]

5K for ground school and sim time? Did you mean to type 50K?

If you’re already CPL multi-IFR or ATPL with suitable minimums for type, that sounds reasonable. I don’t think @Zoomie was implying a cold start from PPL to 37NG was 5k.

 

[Mick]

If you’re already CPL multi-IFR or ATPL with suitable minimums for type, that sounds reasonable. I don’t think @Zoomie was implying a cold start from PPL to 37NG was 5k.

Yes, I'm referring to just the type rating course itself.

Wow - 5-10k does seem to be the average cost.

Very surprising - it's much more expensive on the corporate jet side.

 

[Good2Golf]

Yes, I'm referring to just the type rating course itself.

Wow - 5-10k does seem to be the average cost.

Very surprising - it's much more expensive on the corporate jet side.

Indeed. A friend of mine flew Citation X+, and recently did a Global 6500 type rating…the company paid for it, but he has a 12-month bond that would not be cheap to break.

 

[dimsum]

How do our Allies do it is the first question?

By that, I’m assuming you‘re referring to the US. They are the only ally that I know of who has a robust Reserve flying cadre (between USAFR, USNR, USMCR, USAR…you get the point) who aren’t former Reg F folks turned Reserve.

Our other FVEY and friends either don’t have it at all, or have a similar program to us.

 

[KevinB]

By that, I’m assuming you‘re referring to the US. They are the only ally that I know of who has a robust Reserve flying cadre (between USAFR, USNR, USMCR, USAR…you get the point) who aren’t former Reg F folks turned Reserve.

Our other FVEY and friends either don’t have it at all, or have a similar program to us.

Pedantic point you missed the Air Guard and ARNG Aviation segment, as well as USCG-R and I suspect more

 

[Kirkhill]

This USAF programme, if implemented in Canada, would seem to fast track civilian pilots from airlines to just about everything the RCAF flies. The only exempt aircraft would seem to be the fast jets - ie Hornets and Lightnings.​

​

Alternate Route

www.youralternateroute.com

​

Civil Path to Wings Program (Air Force Reserve)​

In an effort to cure the pilot shortage within the Air Force and specifically the Reserve Component, the Air force is implementing a new program called the Civil Path to Wings Program. This program is targeted at civilian pilots who already have experience in aviation, and build off their existing skills to train more Air Force pilots. Accepted candidates with prior commercial aviation experience would enter UPT at one of three points based on the outcome of a Competency Validation conducted by the Air Force. These candidates would either attend UPT 2.5, skip the T-6 syllabus and be inserted into the T-1 track, or attend a fundamentals course prior to their assigned Formal Training Unit (FTU). In any case, these candidates are only eligible to fly crew aircraft within the Mobility Air Forces (MAF), Special Operations Forces (SOF), or Command, Control, and Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance (C2ISR) aircraft throughout the Air Force inventory. The hope is that this would be another way to help expedite the pipeline, produce more pilots per year, and decrease training costs while producing more qualified Air Force pilots.

• · The basic eligibility requirements are as follows:
• Sponsorship by an AFR flying unit.
  A current PCSM score. See the Guidebook Section “Pilot Candidate Selection Method.”
  Minimum commercial certificate with MEI
  Minimum 500 hours total fixed-wing/manned flight time (or an additional 250 hrs after
  Comm/MEI)
  Minimum ~100 hrs in the last year prior to validation
  Maximum possible multi-engine aircraft under IFR in the National Air Space
  
  Qualification determines training:
  WELL QUALIFIED, you will be scheduled for an Air Force Initial Flying Class 1 (IFC1) flight physical. Upon certification of your IFC1, you will be scheduled for a CPW class where you will bypass UPT Phase 2 (T-6s) and proceed directly to UPT Phase 3 (T-1s), possibly as early as June 2021.
  EXTREMELY WELL QUALIFIED, you will be scheduled for an Air Force Initial Flying Class 1 (IFC1) flight physical. Upon certification of your IFC1, you will be scheduled for the Air Force Fundamentals course (possibly as early as June 2021) and then proceed directly to the Formal Training Unit for your sponsoring unit’s aircraft.
  *AFRC UFT Guidebook (Jun, 2022)

 

[dimsum]

Pedantic point you missed the Air Guard and ARNG Aviation segment, as well as USCG-R and I suspect more

I only have so many hours a day, ya know.

 

[KevinB]

This USAF programme, if implemented in Canada, would seem to fast track civilian pilots from airlines to just about everything the RCAF flies. The only exempt aircraft would seem to be the fast jets - ie Hornets and Lightnings.​

​

Alternate Route

www.youralternateroute.com

​

Again only useful IF the RCAF gets more airframes...

 

[dimsum]

Again only useful IF the RCAF gets more airframes...

And people to teach said applicants.

 

[GR66]

Only way I could see it maybe work would be if you stuck to civilian-equivalent aircraft only (P-8's & MRTT's) and have the Reserve Squadrons based out of major Canadian airports so you could draw your personnel from pilots/techs already working there.

Maybe work some kind of deal with the airlines and colleges for shared training costs/facilities, trade equivalencies, time served deployed counting toward seniority, etc. Tie it in with a Canadian version of the US Air Force Civil Reserve Air Fleet and you have a useful surge capability for transport which would be greatly appreciated by our allies.

Doesn't help with the military-specific fleets but it's low hanging fruit that you could potentially take advantage of if you have the will.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

They are not training aids they are the training. The difference between a full motion sim on 737 and the real thing is minimal. I’ve know because I’ve seen it.

So is the FFS for the 140 (“ish”). The OMS, Operational Mission Simulator, which incorporates the whole crew, “simulates” the real world. Lots more to consider like simulating a RFN SSN, water mass, acoustic performance, weapon’s behaviour, riser/sinker parameters, EO/IR.

The simulate, they don’t replicate. Looking at it from only a flight deck perspective is a wee bit short sighted.

I’m betting the Civie air simulators aren’t replicating MHCs with torp drops…

Most airlines require a line doc training after sim of 50-100 hours. To get comfortable with operation and understand some difference between sim and plane.

Personally I have three type ratings including a 330 type rating. I’ve flown everywhere from the High Arctic to Africa. All that training for those aircraft was in the sim prior to line and doc.

If I for example took a on reserve role on the P8 or MRTT I’m sure I would require additional training but a full wings course doubtful. The civilian world has moved on from just live training the RCAF needs to as well.

I’ve seen ex RCAF guys who could barely program a fms or understand crm, but ya they could fly the bird. The space shuttle training never involved a practice re-entry did that make those pilots any less ready?

Training has evolved and so to the RCAF must as well. However I doubt it will, especially with the current thought process of NDHQ 1950 mentality.

See what I said above. The front end is just a part of the equation re: sims.

Tactical flying, whether in a stack doing dynamic tgting at night in electronic and light blackout with min separation or doing MHCs at minimums also blacked out at 3am, XXX miles south of Iceland with something real under the waves isn’t something most sims are running.

something to consider…

I’m not saying sims are bad (they can induce negative trg in some cases), but they also don’t equal “real flying” a la military on ops.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Just wanted to add quickly; with the P-8 comes new sims. I have zero info on how the sims are in the P-8 fleets our Allies are using. Hopefully both YFR and sim availability increase for our VP folks.

I’ve experienced Block 2, 3 and 4 OMS in the 140 fleet and base my opinion on that.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

They are not training aids they are the training. The difference between a full motion sim on 737 and the real thing is minimal. I’ve know because I’ve seen it.

Most airlines require a line doc training after sim of 50-100 hours. To get comfortable with operation and understand some difference between sim and plane.

Personally I have three type ratings including a 330 type rating. I’ve flown everywhere from the High Arctic to Africa. All that training for those aircraft was in the sim prior to line and doc.

If I for example took a on reserve role on the P8 or MRTT I’m sure I would require additional training but a full wings course doubtful. The civilian world has moved on from just live training the RCAF needs to as well.

I’ve seen ex RCAF guys who could barely program a fms or understand crm, but ya they could fly the bird. The space shuttle training never involved a practice re-entry did that make those pilots any less ready?

Training has evolved and so to the RCAF must as well. However I doubt it will, especially with the current thought process of NDHQ 1950 mentality.

The RCAF has to change (lots of old dogs don’t/can’t learn an FMS) but there is a whole bunch more to flying a P8 than a 737NG from YEG to YYZ. Does your typical airline pilot operate an armament panel and drop stores or weapons? Do they understand ASW and ASUW tactics? Can they employ defensive countermeasures to avoid being shot down? Do they typically turn and burn at 250kts, 200ft AGL at night, 1000NM offshore?

Some things need to change. Somethings are the way they are because we learned those lessons in blood.

 

[dimsum]

The article is from a few years ago, but talks about the P-8 vs P-3.

15 Questions With One Of VP-5's "Mad Foxes" On Flying The P-8 Poseidon

We talk with a P-8 pilot about how the jet is rapidly maturing into one of the Pentagon's most versatile and in-demand assets—one that has now been deployed to most of the major hotspots around the globe.

www.thedrive.com

 

[YZT580]

So is the FFS for the 140 (“ish”). The OMS, Operational Mission Simulator, which incorporates the whole crew, “simulates” the real world. Lots more to consider like simulating a RFN SSN, water mass, acoustic performance, weapon’s behaviour, riser/sinker parameters, EO/IR.

The simulate, they don’t replicate. Looking at it from only a flight deck perspective is a wee bit short sighted.

I’m betting the Civie air simulators aren’t replicating MHCs with torp drops…



See what I said above. The front end is just a part of the equation re: sims.

Tactical flying, whether in a stack doing dynamic tgting at night in electronic and light blackout with min separation or doing MHCs at minimums also blacked out at 3am, XXX miles south of Iceland with something real under the waves isn’t something most sims are running.

something to consider…

I’m not saying sims are bad (they can induce negative trg in some cases), but they also don’t equal “real flying” a la military on ops.

Going back several decades, we were being given a VIP tour at CAE in Montreal and a combat simulator due for delivery was being flown by a major from the Luftwaffe. The simulator was stationary, motion was implied via an air cushion with hundreds of pockets that applied pressure as appropriate with control input. When the simulation ceased the major emerged white faced and shaking. He had been shot down during a low level run down the Ruhr valley and he had believed it. That was 35 years ago. I am certain that simulation has improved dramatically since then. Simulation is only restricted by the limits of the person writing the programme and that includes low level flying over the Atlantic in Force 5 weather.


S