CMMA - replacing the CP140 Aurora

[KevinB]

Civilians and Air Reserve.
I know of four pilots right now who only have a few hundred hours who would like to build those hours up and fly but making $40,000ish a year wasn't paying the bills and life is expensive. (Their current job gives them mandatory time off paid and unpaid for Military Training/ Deployment).
They do not want to join the Regular Force, But would apply to the Air Reserves if they had a chance to fly. They would not or did not even get a second look.

IIRC the RCAF only uses former Reg Force pilots for the pilot roles in the Air Res -- which to me is just cutting off a really valuable potential pool of candidates.
Now they would need to go through Pilot training regardless, and as I understand the current RCAF throughput is a fairly limiting factor.

I agree.

Money talks, Look at training from the start. Lots of younger to be Pilots would love a $60,000 year to train as a pilot.

I fully agree. Good money and they actually get to fly their entire careers, along with not starting off at as and when jobs

The RCAF doesn't need another orphan RTW asset, nor to fund a different departments empire, which would also then compete with the RCAF to retain the RTW pilots and crews...

 

[childs56]

IIRC the RCAF only uses former Reg Force pilots for the pilot roles in the Air Res -- which to me is just cutting off a really valuable potential pool of candidates.
Now they would need to go through Pilot training regardless, and as I understand the current RCAF throughput is a fairly limiting factor.

Another reason why to make the system fail. They need a new mentality in NDHQ.
Which wont happen unless it completely fails. The only way that will happen is if we actually have to go to a full scale war and we need to physically defend ourselves here. We know thats when it is to late.
Pilot training can and is a self correcting problem if they want it to be. Many in 1 CAD and NDHQ have no thought outside of protecting their own cushy position and looking for the next one. A bunch of fricking yes men and women.

The RCAF doesn't need another orphan RTW asset, nor to fund a different departments empire, which would also then compete with the RCAF to retain the RTW pilots and crews...

I disagree to a point, the RCAF needs to staff the positions they have been allotted. If they cant get it in Regular Uniforms, and not willing to get it in Part time Uniforms then Civilians are the way to go for those less hazardous assignments. (we all know they are the riskiest of all). Until they pull their heads out of their butts and properly staff.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

ShockedWell you can have TC buy a bunch of Grey helicopters (same as the CCG ones) and man them with TC personal. They fly off the AOP's during their arctic patrols. TC bills DND for the helicopters and personal. This is what they do for the CCG.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

“Flying a plane” is just one aspect of the job; right now in some fleets it’s hard just for aircrew to maintain their ticket/category/currency.

I’m not sure how a true blue Class A reserve pilot would ever get thru the trg; just to be a FO in our fleet is a fair amount of work. If you don’t fly often it’s hard to improve proficiency let alone upgrade and all that goes with it.

Just food for thought. I’m not sure how it could work.

 

[KevinB]

“Flying a plane” is just one aspect of the job; right now in some fleets it’s hard just for aircrew to maintain their ticket/category/currency.

I’m not sure how a true blue Class A reserve pilot would ever get thru the trg; just to be a FO in our fleet is a fair amount of work. If you don’t fly often it’s hard to improve proficiency let alone upgrade and all that goes with it.

Just food for thought. I’m not sure how it could work.

Given we manage to have all sorts of Flight and Maintenance MOS’s in the National Guard, Air Guard and Reserves, I don’t think it’s impossible.
OFC you need equipment to actually use for that too…

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Given we manage to have all sorts of Flight and Maintenance MOS’s in the National Guard, Air Guard and Reserves, I don’t think it’s impossible.
OFC you need equipment to actually use for that too…

Serviceable aircraft and sufficient maint resources to keep them flying.

So….yah. Lol


How many Air Guard etc pilots are “straight off the street” with no prior service flying mil air?

 

[KevinB]

Serviceable aircraft and sufficient maint resources to keep them flying.

So….yah.

Given the equipment constraints of the CAF, I don’t see the viability of a great deal of Reserve personnel at this point in time.

 

[dimsum]

Another reason why to make the system fail. They need a new mentality in NDHQ.
Which wont happen unless it completely fails. The only way that will happen is if we actually have to go to a full scale war and we need to physically defend ourselves here. We know thats when it is to late.
Pilot training can and is a self correcting problem if they want it to be. Many in 1 CAD and NDHQ have no thought outside of protecting their own cushy position and looking for the next one. A bunch of fricking yes men and women.

As @Eye In The Sky and @KevinB have discussed down the thread, it is not a self-correcting problem at this time. There is a lack of instructors and airframes, which severely impacts how many people can get trained.

The RCAF can throw them to civilian flight schools for Phase 1 and potentially Phase 3 Multi or Helicopter, but how many schools teach formation or aerobatics in Phase 2? Or lead-in Fighter Training? And even if, hypothetically, there was a civilian or foreign option (e.g. sending them to the USAF or USN for those phases), we still need Operational Training Units to actually teach them how to fly and use the aircraft to Canadian tactics. OTUs need instructors and aircraft as well, and in a multi-crew aircraft, instructors of other trades (ACSOs, AES Ops, Loadmasters, etc) which are affected by the health of those trades.

The RCAF has a team dedicated to looking an options called Future Aircrew Training. They are looking at various ways to streamline and increase training already.

 

[dimsum]

Now, of course, the real question is whether we can name the aircraft like the Brits, Norwegians, etc do.

 

[childs56]

As @Eye In The Sky and @KevinB have discussed down the thread, it is not a self-correcting problem at this time. There is a lack of instructors and airframes, which severely impacts how many people can get trained.

The RCAF can throw them to civilian flight schools for Phase 1 and potentially Phase 3 Multi or Helicopter, but how many schools teach formation or aerobatics in Phase 2? Or lead-in Fighter Training? And even if, hypothetically, there was a civilian or foreign option (e.g. sending them to the USAF or USN for those phases), we still need Operational Training Units to actually teach them how to fly and use the aircraft to Canadian tactics. OTUs need instructors and aircraft as well, and in a multi-crew aircraft, instructors of other trades (ACSOs, AES Ops, Loadmasters, etc) which are affected by the health of those trades.

The RCAF has a team dedicated to looking an options called Future Aircrew Training. They are looking at various ways to streamline and increase training already.

Excuses is what I am reading, sorry but that's all I heard when I was in.
Solutions are send them off to Civilian Training schools, they can learn the basics.
Hire Top Aces or some other ex Military Pilot group to train our Pilots. I mean if china can hire western Military Pilots to train them we surely can.

Lots of tactics can now be done with flight sims, We just need to buy more. Especially with the F35 coming.

Think outside the box, and the black line we follow. I know we can do it we just have the attitude we cant.

Lots of places especially Government Agencies are having a hard time recruiting, training and retaining people. Why is that we should be asking ourselves?
It is simple, we have been doing things one way for so long we fail to modernize and prioritize what we need right now.
If you need to pull staff from the "Front line" to train the valuable pilots then do so. If we keep loosing quality trained staff we wont have anyone to train the new people well.
We need to get over the short term idea that we can fix it with healing fences and eyes closed approaches.

 

[dapaterson]

Kills at night, with a mixed gender crew? We'll name it the Rene Levesque.

 

[FJAG]

Here's an example from the Vermont National Guard for fighter pilot enlistment and training. They do it. There is a system. And Air National Guard have flown combat missions in Iraq and Afghanistan not to mention thousands of tanker and transport missions.

Become A Fighter Pilot

Add to that the Army National Guard warrant officer program flying all manner of helicopters from Apaches to Chinooks.

Army National Guard

Army National Guard

nationalguard.com

Like this one flown by a Pennsylvania National Guard Pilot.

Can it be done? Obviously yes!

Can Canada do it. Absolutely not!

It all starts with attitude and excuses. We've had a model for the military since the 1960s and no one will break that model. We'd rather break the CAF first.

Rant ends

 

[quadrapiper]

Given the equipment constraints of the CAF, I don’t see the viability of a great deal of Reserve personnel at this point in time.

I doubt our population differences, both as far as numbers and geographical distribution, help either, for aligning part-time personnel with high currency needs with training or operational units.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Excuses is what I am reading, sorry but that's all I heard when I was in.
Solutions are send them off to Civilian Training schools, they can learn the basics.
Hire Top Aces or some other ex Military Pilot group to train our Pilots. I mean if china can hire western Military Pilots to train them we surely can.

Lots of tactics can now be done with flight sims, We just need to buy more. Especially with the F35 coming.

Think outside the box, and the black line we follow. I know we can do it we just have the attitude we cant.

Lots of places especially Government Agencies are having a hard time recruiting, training and retaining people. Why is that we should be asking ourselves?
It is simple, we have been doing things one way for so long we fail to modernize and prioritize what we need right now.
If you need to pull staff from the "Front line" to train the valuable pilots then do so. If we keep loosing quality trained staff we wont have anyone to train the new people well.
We need to get over the short term idea that we can fix it with healing fences and eyes closed approaches.

When you were in, did you have exposure to or take part in any aircrew training or fly operationally?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

When you were in, did you have exposure to or take part in any aircrew training or fly operationally?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Here's an example from the Vermont National Guard for fighter pilot enlistment and training. They do it. There is a system. And Air National Guard have flown combat missions in Iraq and Afghanistan not to mention thousands of tanker and transport missions.



Add to that the Army National Guard warrant officer program flying all manner of helicopters from Apaches to Chinooks.



Like this one flown by a Pennsylvania National Guard Pilot.

Can it be done? Obviously yes!

Can Canada do it. Absolutely not!

It all starts with attitude and excuses. We've had a model for the military since the 1960s and no one will break that model. We'd rather break the CAF first.

Rant ends

Excuse or reality? How many assets do the organizations you mentioned have compared to the Canadian counterparts?

 

[dimsum]

Here's an example from the Vermont National Guard for fighter pilot enlistment and training. They do it. There is a system. And Air National Guard have flown combat missions in Iraq and Afghanistan not to mention thousands of tanker and transport missions.



Add to that the Army National Guard warrant officer program flying all manner of helicopters from Apaches to Chinooks.



Like this one flown by a Pennsylvania National Guard Pilot.

Can it be done? Obviously yes!

Can Canada do it. Absolutely not!

It all starts with attitude and excuses. We've had a model for the military since the 1960s and no one will break that model. We'd rather break the CAF first.

Rant ends

So I took a look at the details for the Vermont ANG training pipeline. Someone has to be on full-time status for 3-4 years to go through training, etc and qualification before they’re able to change to part-time status. Also, they need to have a degree before applying.

So yes, you can be a Reservist and fly fighters. But it’s not really ”part-time”.

Also, I’ve mentioned this before but the US Army WO isn’t the same as our definition of a WO. They are more “officer” than “warrant”.

 

[dimsum]

When you were in, did you have exposure to or take part in any aircrew training or fly operationally?

 

[Maxman1]

 

[childs56]

When you were in, did you have exposure to or take part in any aircrew training or fly operationally?

I ran a boat for a sea survival scenario one time, did standby for Snowbirds one day.
I flew in a 417 Sqn Griffon one time....
had a Few flights in the back a Brit Chinook,
Cz HIP, and Cougar a few times. (almost got to jettison the LG1 when we just about hit some power lines, that was the FE job but he was going to allow me to).
You couldn't get me to fly in a F18, I did do a full engine run up one time.
I worked on a 442 Sqn Helicopter as a Co-Op student one time getting them ready to fly operationally had to verify torque of the transmissions bolts down prior to a flight. (did not fly in on on the helo wasn't allowed to as I was a student at the time)

Nope not a single exposure to aircrew training or flying operationally.
But I fixed the leaky little buggers and listened to the concerns of attrition.
I do know our system is broken, I do know it can be fixed. but in order to do that we need to actually want to fix it. The people on the floor want to fix it, and have viable solutions in the near, short, medium and long term. The bosses have not figure it out, do not want it fixed or are absolutely useless.

I am sure West Jet and Air Canada could provide a few experienced Pilots through a Reserve program that would be useful with the new P8s.
I am also sure there are enough retired Pilots in Canada who could be enticed back to fly part time that would be of benefit, again China hired a few recently.
A few more people who have started the Civilian Pilot training and could be enticed to move over.
Afterall Portage Starts Pilots off with Jet Rangers, King Air C-90A and Harvard II. Then they move on from there.