Cost of housing in Canada

[dapaterson]

Around the corner from me there's an oddly placed and situated lot, that's going to see an 8 story highrise go in, replacing an old, shuttered single story business.

I made the mistake of watching a recorded discussion session on YouTube, where "family apartments across from a school" are apparently bad planning, builders making a profit are Satan's spawn, delivery trucks will inevitably fill all the local streets for ever once people move in and start ordering everything from Amazon 24/7...

A very depressing but unsurprising view of Ottawa inside the greenbelt.

 

[Halifax Tar]

But then what happens with an aging population that doesn’t get replaced and a younger population that leaves?

Again seems like a supply issue that isn’t meeting the needs of growing your population.

A balancing act indeed.

Thanks for the example.

The population should be managed. That includes controlled growth.

What I don't understand is that, as a population declines so should the draw on social services that the taxes base pays for. So why do we need an every growing population?

Or are we, again, selling the future for the benefit of the aged and dying and at the expense of the young ?

 

[Brad Sallows]

Population growth and pyramid-shaped populations have been bedrock assumptions for a lot of government planning for decades. I suspect we ought to be recalibrating for something closer to steady-state (birthrate at or slightly below replacement, cohort bulge of Boomers passed on), but contemporary politicians haven't the spine to sell that.

Retirees moving in definitely creates housing demand along with medical services demand. For (some/many/most?) retirees buying homes, it isn't the last dwelling they'll own. Eventually they'll downsize to a modest apartment, or ultimately a room in a care facility.

Cynical observations: the more the pain of housing costs spreads into areas which haven't really experienced it yet, the more quickly pressure will mount to drop artificial barriers ("that's not on the table") to solutions. For example, that pyramid-shaped population model already can only be sustained by immigration, but immigration aggravates some kinds of demand without necessarily immediately providing a balance of supply. I suspect planners really like high immigration because it's built into so many fiscal assumptions, so I'd expect them to be highly reluctant to let it go. Broad and deep enough public anger might change their minds.

 

[Remius]

The population should be managed. That includes controlled growth.

What I don't understand is that, as a population declines so should the draw on social services that the taxes base pays for. So why do we need an every growing population?

To an extent. The issue is also your population aging and living longer and losing your working population. If you lose more than you take in, it isn’t good. Especially when your productive population is declining.

It seems the maritimes have been able to to stop the decline they were seeing for over a decade. Good.

it didn’t plan or didn’t have the housing properly sorted to address it. Bad.

Now add a pile of other factors like high investor ownership of homes and other things it creates an unfavourable housing situation.

 

[Eaglelord17]

The population should be managed. That includes controlled growth.

What I don't understand is that, as a population declines so should the draw on social services that the taxes base pays for. So why do we need an every growing population?

Or are we, again, selling the future for the benefit of the aged and dying and at the expense of the young ?

Because we set up all the systems as a pyramid scheme which needs lots of people at the bottom to sustain the top. It worked fine until people started living much longer and jobs which paid better for the unskilled were replaced with jobs which pay poorly.

Personally I live in a area which is about 10k below its peak. That kept house prices low until 2019 when a ton of ‘investors’ from Toronto area bought up a lot of the available supply driving up the prices.

It was nice before, you could buy a decent house with garage in the 150k range, 200k for one which required no immediate work. Now those same houses are at least 300-400k.

In comparison to Toronto thats still cheap but what that means for locals is double the mortgage payments, substantial increase the amount of interest paid over the lifetime of the loan (from that 150k house being 300k after 25 years to being 600k after 25 years) and a increase in property tax which most people haven’t realized yet (reassessed every 5 years, hard to argue its going to be 150k when you paid 300k).

All that to say is the citizen loses out and the only real winners are the banks, ‘investors’, and the tax man.

 

[captloadie]

I grew up in Northern NB, where at the time the mill, the mines and the smelter kept a majority of the population employed either directly or through trickle down employment. About 20 years ago, when they all closed down in fairly close order, it caused a crisis. There were no well paid jobs for the next generation of kids to move into, and many were forced to move away for employment. Housing prices plummeted because there were no buyers, and from my view, it was a dying area.

Fast forward to today. There is still no large industry taking over, but every other person I know works at the "Federal Building". Some of those people who moved away are now back with their families, to be closer to family and friends. They are either retiring, have gig jobs, or run their own businesses. "Ontario People" are moving in and buying up properties to enjoy the slower pace of life. Beach front and golf course properties that would have been in the 250-300K range have sky rocketed to 750-900. Vacant land that you could get for 1000/acre in the city is now 40K+, and farmland outside of the city that has been dormant for years is now selling like hotcakes.

But I think this will be a short lived bubble, as there is still no real employment opportunities for the next generation of kids, unless WFH becomes a real thing for people just starting their careers.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I grew up in Northern NB, where at the time the mill, the mines and the smelter kept a majority of the population employed either directly or through trickle down employment. About 20 years ago, when they all closed down in fairly close order, it caused a crisis. There were no well paid jobs for the next generation of kids to move into, and many were forced to move away for employment. Housing prices plummeted because there were no buyers, and from my view, it was a dying area.

Fast forward to today. There is still no large industry taking over, but every other person I know works at the "Federal Building". Some of those people who moved away are now back with their families, to be closer to family and friends. They are either retiring, have gig jobs, or run their own businesses. "Ontario People" are moving in and buying up properties to enjoy the slower pace of life. Beach front and golf course properties that would have been in the 250-300K range have sky rocketed to 750-900. Vacant land that you could get for 1000/acre in the city is now 40K+, and farmland outside of the city that has been dormant for years is now selling like hotcakes.

But I think this will be a short lived bubble, as there is still no real employment opportunities for the next generation of kids, unless WFH becomes a real thing for people just starting their careers.

I am also from Bathurst

There are many of us that served in the CAF.

 

[captloadie]

There are now, and I think you were in the cohort that all joined shortly after I got in. Before me, I only new of those guys in the "mulitia" and the one guy who did the school visit from RMC and but didn't make it past 2nd year.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

There is a difference between wanting a single detached home and the reality of being able to have a single detached home is where the government comes in.

A large percentage of the population has decided they wish to live in a specific area. We can’t keep sprawling forever it simply isn’t feasible we are running out of land to do so. At some point we need to build up not out and I would argue it is the duty of a responsible government to ensure the needs of society (food, water, shelter) are met before the wants (in this case a dispersed living in a area that should be high density). No one is stopping you from living in detached homes, but just as no one is stopping me from having a castle on a 1000 acre estate, it is out of most peoples reach though.

Running out of room? In Canada?
If you decide to take a job in a high density area, that is on the individual and their choice. Part of deciding what one does for a living, starts with assessing where that job is available, where you will have to live and what you will have to give up or gain according to your decision. Nobody forces you to live where you are. Personal responsibility is not the government's problem.

 

[Quirky]

Liberal Cabinate holiday wraps up with no new strategies on housing. Let er buck eh Justin!?

 

[lenaitch]

Running out of room? In Canada?
If you decide to take a job in a high density area, that is on the individual and their choice. Part of deciding what one does for a living, starts with assessing where that job is available, where you will have to live and what you will have to give up or gain according to your decision. Nobody forces you to live where you are. Personal responsibility is not the government's problem.

And I can pretty much guarantee you that thought process probably happens in about 5% of youth, and their parents. The short-term objective seems to be get a general arts degree, either in anything at all or in some discipline that has little to no hope of being relevant to the working world. The long-term objective, what to do with said degree, is seldom on the radar. You end up with cities full of young people, all with degrees, mostly working at entry level jobs, and not willing to re-assess their choices or to move, and wondering why they can't get ahead.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Running out of room? In Canada?
If you decide to take a job in a high density area, that is on the individual and their choice. Part of deciding what one does for a living, starts with assessing where that job is available, where you will have to live and what you will have to give up or gain according to your decision. Nobody forces you to live where you are. Personal responsibility is not the government's problem.

Running out of room in certain cities. Yes there is a lot of land in Canada but we choose not to inhabit the vast majority of it.

Housing responsibilities in terms of building permits and city planning is a municipal responsibility.

No one is forcing you to live anywhere, but I expect responsible government everywhere I go.

 

[YZT580]

Running out of room in certain cities. Yes there is a lot of land in Canada but we choose not to inhabit the vast majority of it.

Housing responsibilities in terms of building permits and city planning is a municipal responsibility.

No one is forcing you to live anywhere, but I expect responsible government everywhere I go.

interesting thought that. Define responsible government. If you are living in a small town that wants to stay small and your town council blocks mega-developers for you that is responsible. Queens Park would define them as obstructionist. For me, I help elect a group that will represent my thoughts and desires and I don't appreciate having someone from Toronto or Ottawa telling me that the way I chose to live isn't the way they will allow me to live. I chose to live here for the very reasons they are trying to erase.

 

[Furniture]

interesting thought that. Define responsible government. If you are living in a small town that wants to stay small and your town council blocks mega-developers for you that is responsible. Queens Park would define them as obstructionist. For me, I help elect a group that will represent my thoughts and desires and I don't appreciate having someone from Toronto or Ottawa telling me that the way I chose to live isn't the way they will allow me to live. I chose to live here for the very reasons they are trying to erase.

Have you considered that governments are being heavy handed because NIMBYs have been too successful for too long?

Rather than accept that Canada's population is growing, and people need places to live, they tried to keep their community unchanging(after their new home/subdivision was built of course). They stifled smaller developments, and now because housing is a crisis large developments will be forced on them.

Remember, those provincial and federal governments were elected by people to represent their best interests as well...

 

[Remius]

interesting thought that. Define responsible government. If you are living in a small town that wants to stay small and your town council blocks mega-developers for you that is responsible. Queens Park would define them as obstructionist. For me, I help elect a group that will represent my thoughts and desires and I don't appreciate having someone from Toronto or Ottawa telling me that the way I chose to live isn't the way they will allow me to live. I chose to live here for the very reasons they are trying to erase.

Interesting. Has Queen’s park actually intervened in small towns where developers were trying to expand into?

 

[lenaitch]

Interesting. Has Queen’s park actually intervened in small towns where developers were trying to expand into?

Here's a map of Minister's Zoning Orders, where the government has imposed a zoning change to permit an application. There can override both local zoning decisions, environmental and other existing local and provincial land use policy.

I'd actually never heard of them until this government.

Minister’s Zoning Order Map – Yours To Protect

yourstoprotect.ca

 

[Remius]

Here's a map of Minister's Zoning Orders, where the government has imposed a zoning change to permit an application. There can override both local zoning decisions, environmental and other existing local and provincial land use policy.

I'd actually never heard of them until this government.

Minister’s Zoning Order Map – Yours To Protect

yourstoprotect.ca

Sure, but from what I am reading (granted only at a glance and not very in depth) some of these are happening at the request of the local mayors or councils.

Never heard of these either but it seems that the Ford gvt has issued a lot of these.

 

[mariomike]

From the Toronto real estate market,

Someone in Toronto is renting out a tiny mattress on their stairs as an Airbnb

An Airbnb listing in Toronto has people in the city chattering about how ridiculous our housing market is for absolutely everyone right now, whethe...

www.blogto.com

This sad basement unit in Toronto is selling for almost $500K

We all know Toronto real estate is beyond unaffordable these days. It's gotten so bad, charities are helping people who make six-figure incomes bu...

www.blogto.com

Having to share bedrooms with strangers is the new thing due to Toronto's unaffordability

A new trend emerging in Toronto's rental market is a pitiful indication of how difficult it has become to afford living in the city, with housing p...

www.blogto.com

Someone in Toronto is renting a DIY bedroom in their tiny condo living room for $1,400 a month

The price to rent a bedroom in a shared apartment in Toronto has now reached a figure that some of us can remember paying for an entire place of ou...

www.blogto.com

 

[lenaitch]

Sure, but from what I am reading (granted only at a glance and not very in depth) some of these are happening at the request of the local mayors or councils.

Never heard of these either but it seems that the Ford gvt has issued a lot of these.

Yes, some have. I can't find more detailed numbers.

 

[Good2Golf]

Sure, but from what I am reading (granted only at a glance and not very in depth) some of these are happening at the request of the local mayors or councils.

Never heard of these either but it seems that the Ford gvt has issued a lot of these.

Well…back in 1969, and the federal government with the compliance of the provincial government, expropriated nearly 1/10 of a million acres of land surrounding the St. Scholastique region, thereafter becoming more commonly known as Mirabel…

So not unprecedented.