Danny Williams lowers the Canadian Flag

[Bograt]

Bruce,

The technical briefing on the proposal was held yesterday. I have attached the NL position of the terms for your review.

Analysis of Federal Government Offer on the Atlantic Accord
Winnipeg, December 22, 2004

On June 5, 2004 the Prime Minister accepted the proposal of the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to remove the effect of the Equalization clawback on offshore revenues so that the Province will receive 100 per cent of the value from these revenues.

The principle accepted by the Prime Minister was reiterated in the federal proposal of December 22, 2004.

"...the annual offset payment...shall be equal to 100 per cent of any reductions in Equalization payments resulting from offshore revenues."

This statement demonstrates that the federal government understands the principle, but it then attached seven conditions which eroded the 100 per cent commitment.

To understand how these conditions operate, it is first necessary to understand how the offset payment is calculated. The equalization formula, in its simplest form, provides that each dollar of new own-source revenue collected by a province will result in the reduction, or clawback, of equalization payments by one dollar to the benefit of the federal government. To eliminate the regressive effect of the equalization clawback due to offshore revenue, and provide 100% benefit of offshore revenues to the province, the offset payment should return to the province each dollar which has been clawed back. Therefore, if $10 million of equalization is clawed back due to offshore revenue, the offset payment should be $10 million. If $500 million is clawed back, the offset payment should be $500 million. The offset payment would stabilize, and not grow any further, at the point where all equalization payments have been clawed back.

Federal Conditions

Each of the seven conditions in the Federal Proposal deflates the 100 per cent commitment. Ultimately the clawback is completely reinstated.

Annual Termination: The new offset arrangement will terminate in any year in which NL is off equalization. Even though there is a transition mechanism, any immediate reduction in offset payments means that the clawback on offshore revenue has been reintroduced.



Inadequate Transition Mechanism: The federal transition mechanism which is triggered when the new offset terminates is the one embedded in the existing Atlantic Accord. This mechanism ensures a rapid reduction of the offset payment. For example, if NL is off Equalization in two years of the first eight years, NL would be $1 billion short of 100 per cent.



Transition Ends in 7 Years: The transition mechanism will not be available after year 7, which means that the clawback reduction will be fully reinstated if NL is off equalization in year 7 or later.



Uncertain Extension: The federal criteria to extend the arrangement to a second eight year period could deprive NL of the extension altogether. The federal government proposed that if NL is off equalization in years 7 and 8, or if our debt/GDP ratio moves ahead of one other province, or if we fail to balance our budget in year 8, then the extension will not be granted. If not granted, and without the benefit of a transition mechanism, the clawback will be in full effect again.



Annual Termination Potential after 8 Years: Even if an extension does occur, the federal proposal says that the arrangements could end in any year by applying the same criteria for 8 year renewal (i.e., two years off equalization, improved debt/GDP ratio, failure to balance budget).



Project Limitations: The arrangement will include revenue only from Hibernia, Terra Nova and White Rose. Hebron's inclusion will only last 8 years in total (possibly not at all if NL is off equalization.). The revenues from other new fields will not be included.



Time Limitations: The whole arrangement will be 16 years or less, even though the revenues on existing projects extend beyond 16 years. The federal government will not even commit to a formal discussion about a further extension.

Balanced Budget Condition

The requirement to balance the budget in order to receive offset payments between years 8 and 16 is extraordinary. The Government of Newfoundland and Labrador has adopted an aggressive fiscal policy to balance its budget, but the timing and nature of its budget policy should not be dictated by the federal government.

Principal Beneficiary

The reinstatement of the federal clawback, especially if Newfoundland and Labrador continues to require equalization during this period, negates the objective of the Atlantic Accord which is that the Province should be the "principal beneficiary" of its offshore resources.

Equalization Payments and Offset Payments

The Provincial proposal recognizes that Equalization payments will end when the Province's fiscal capacity achieves the five province average, (or whatever nationally-defined standard may exist for the Equalization program). However, offset payments should continue after the province is off Equalization because the clawback of offshore revenues is still operating â “ indeed, at its maximum level - when Equalization payments are reduced to zero. Offset payments might be reduced when the Province is off Equalization for a sustained period of time, but the federal proposal does not adequately recognize this concept.

January 3, 2004

 

[George Wallace]

Just out of curiosity.......when was the last time anyone saw a Cdn flag flying over a Provincial Gov't building in Quebec?  No big kafuffle about that?

Martin reneged on his promises and something had to be done to "rally the troops".

GW

 

[Cakear]

Quote,
The smart People knew damnwell what was going to happen . . .

You got any facts to back this up with smart guy?......or just more "waaaahhhh"?

In John Crosbie's autobiography, he mentions Geoff Sterling (capitalistic eccentric owner of NTV, OZFM, Sterling Press etc) dropping leaflets around St. John's in the 40s, pleading the people to vote against Canada and consider joining the U.S.  As much as I would fear the thought of being American, he obviously saw a better future for NFLD with America.  Granted, the island would have probably become one big military base.  At least it would not have been considered a welfare state.  Even Alaska could be considered a "have" state since '59 . . . no?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote,
Even Alaska could be considered a "have" state since '59 . . . no?

So how is this Canada's fault if your provincial govt. after govt. seem to be a sad version of the Keystone Cops?
What would have been done different,?  ......not just rhetoric, please.

EDIT: Bograt, I'm going to have to print that off and check it a little more because at first read, well I'd say about nothing sunk in. :-[
Looks too much like something I hate,....paperwork.

 

[Cakear]

So how is this Canada's fault if your provincial govt. after govt. seem to be a sad version of the Keystone Cops?
What would have been done different,?   ......not just rhetoric, please.

You said you wanted facts of how "smart people knew damnwell what was going to happen".   I gave you one.   I don't think anyone here is blaming Canada entirely for the track record of "govt after govt".   I think the present issue is the fact that Danny has pretty much said "no more" and is actually taking action to avoid the continuation of NFLD being the laughing stock of Canada.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

...and I have no problem with that, Nfld finally seems to have elected someone with a pair,.. however I don't like doing it with the flag and I don't like blaming the rest of Canada for years of pathetic local govt.
I only see a positive out of this for everyone, finally a Maritime premier who will make someone in the federal liberal's accountable for a promise, about time.

 

[Bograt]

<rant>
This should not be a debate between the province of Newfoundland and the people of Canada. No one should have to dispel stereotypes or defend the actions of those long since dead (or should be).

This is a simple issue of integrity. Mr. Martin, while in the death throws of a close election, promised Newfoundlanders the deal that their premier proposed. He then reneges after realizing the scope of his promise, then mounts a spin machine to confuse the rest of Canada, distract from the issue ("Newfoundlanders are stupid, and they want to double dip)*, and spin (flag disrespects those who serve).

Mr. Martin is the same SOB who devastated defence spending during the 90's. He is the same fellow who spent 10 years scheming to become PM. He is the same guy who said the reason why DART wasn't deployed earlier was because we were not expecting the tidal wave. He lied to Newfounders. His machine is focused on spinning the truth. He is a photo-op whore (vising a school and speaking with Sri Lankan Canadian children about the devastation). He cut the military.

If anything disrespects the flag, it is a prime minister you wouldn't let baby sit your children. It is the condescending remarks from ignorant, less informed Canadians. It is a PMO office that states that there would be retribution to the province if they didn't take what was offered. We are a city state nation populated by know it alls, ruled by thieves, and governed by liars. This is not the Canada I see represented in the flag that will be on my uniform. It is the legacy of truth, duty and valour. Neither of these adjectives are reflected by Martin and his team of character assassins and blackberry ninjas.

<rant off>

*Remember when Bush's people said Kerry was a flip flopper? Remember how it stuck, regardless of the facts (one way or the other. The feds here have gone the same rout. They are saying we are double dippers. Simple, short and effective- regardless of whether it is true or not. The main issue is the SOB promised. That what we are pissed about.

 

[Cakear]

Yup . . . broken election promises . . . like Dalton McGuinty in Ontario and Jean Chretien with the GST (to name but a couple).

 

[Kirkhill]

Hear, hear Bograt. "loud sounds of applause".

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Thank you, Bograt.
What started this merde-tossing contest is that some posters seemed to make it between the people of Canada and the people of NFLD., when in fact it is not.
I have stated right from the start that the Maritime provinces should keep the revenue and all I got in return was ranting rhetoric on "how we wont be here long,etc".
Hard to remain sympathitic while getting whacked with a 2x4.
I hope Mr. Martin gets it stuck to him this time, BUT, to go back to what started this thread.....don't use my/yours/our
flag as a bargaining chip.
Thanks, Bruce

 

[chrisf]

I have stated right from the start that the Maritime provinces should keep the revenue and all I got in return was ranting rhetoric on "how we wont be here long,etc".

Point of anality... Newfoundland and Labrador isn't one of the maritime provinces, that term came about long before Newfoundland joined confederation, though it is one of the atlantic provinces. Though that's just me being anal

 

[Bograt]

4. Offshore oil belongs to Canada legally. If it was located in down town St. John's this wouldn't be an issue- howver Paulie promised.- and where I come from a promise is a promise.

5. Taking down the flag is wrong. It is stupid. It is disrespectful. It is without justification. Being lied is wrong as well.

I agree Bruce. Stay focused on the issue. I wish I had the numbers to go over myself. The entire issue is legaleez and beyond my litteracy level.

 

[Cakear]

.....don't use my/yours/our flag as a bargaining chip.

I'll admit it's a little drastic, but I don't think it's being done with the same maliciousness as say, Quebec.  One question Bruce (and anyone can answer/respond) . . . what other options could Mr. Williams have exercised and gotten the same response??

 

[ex_coelis]

Nice posts Bograt. 

Bruce, I wouldn't put it between the people of Canada and the people of Newfoundland, I'd put it between the Government of Canada and the people of Newfoundland.

Todays National Post editorial applauded Paul Martin's response that until the flag goes up the talks are off, and said how Williams was now out of ammo and will be shamed into crawling back to the table with the flag flying high, presumably to take what he is given by the benevolent Feds, and according to the editor, this is a fine situation. 

My rhetoric says that if this federal govt thinks that the right way to deal with Newfoundland is to shame them, as has worked in the past,  (and no worries from the clout of NFLDs 7 MPs), there may be something else in Danny's pocket.  Danny is a smart man, and I am sure he didn't take the flags down without thinking ahead of Martin making the comeback he did.  Anyone have any thoughts as to what his next move might be?  (Not a rhetorical question, I'm serious, I don't know, I'm not the Rhodes scholar). 

BTW:  Good point about the flags on Quebecs provincial buildings. (!) 

Bruce, it isn't all about our 'keystone cop' provincial governments, I think I wrote about this already. 

Fun read, no?

Thank you, Bograt.
What started this merde-tossing contest is that some posters seemed to make it between the people of Canada and the people of NFLD., when in fact it is not.
I have stated right from the start that the Maritime provinces should keep the revenue and all I got in return was ranting rhetoric on "how we wont be here long,etc".

 

[Bograt]

A couple of things regarding your last post.

Nice posts Bograt.  

1Todays National Post editorial applauded Paul Martin's response that until the flag goes up the talks are off, and said how Williams was now out of ammo and will be shamed into crawling back to the table with the flag flying high, presumably to take what he is given by the benevolent Feds, and according to the editor, this is a fine situation.  

2Danny is a smart man, and I am sure he didn't take the flags down without thinking ahead of Martin making the comeback he did.  

1. There is no difference between that editorial response and that of the Globe and Mail.

Margaret Wente, the Globe's featured columnist on its opinion page, says Williams has gone too far in his demands with the federal government.


"Mr. Williams reminds me of a deadbeat brother-in-law who's hit you up for money a few times too often," Wente writes in the Globe's Jan. 6 edition.

"He's been sleeping on the couch for years, and now he's got the nerve to complain that it's too lumpy."

Wente, who describes Newfoundland Labrador as "probably the most vast and scenic welfare ghetto in the world," says Williams is trying to "pick the pockets" of other Canadians.

Well if we are throwing analogies around...

The federal government is like the drunk step father, who regularly beats and sodomizes his step-child and favours his own children.

2. Yes Danny is smart. Smart enough to probably be a nav. However, I think he shot from the hip in a moment of anger and indiscretion. I was thinking how could he save face here. I thought that maybe he could invite Martin to St. John's in a symbolic flag presentation, immediately followed by a working screech in.

I am biased. i voted for the PCs in the last provincial election even though our local PC candidate is a lazy bum and a drunk. I wouldn't say it if it wasn't correct.

 

[Kirkhill]

Off topic but on -  If you catch my drift

I have been a loyal reader of the National Post since it came out. I state without reservation I am a fan of Conrad Black.  One of the reasons I read the Post was because it wasn't Ontario Liberal Centrist.

I now find, as pointed out, that there is no difference between David Asper's Martinite Centrist Paper and Jeffrey Simpson's Martinite Centrist Paper.

As an unabashed Provincialist whose heart lies in Alberta, despite living in BC, I fully support Danny Williams and the Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.

Funny how most "Newfoundlanders" interviewed by the CBC to support PM all talk like they are "from away".

Not many supporters in Harbour Grace I'll warrant.

 

[Cakear]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20050105/EDANNY05/TPComment/Editorials

 

[ex_coelis]

Hi Kirkhill,

We're in the same boat media wise.  I cancelled my Globe subscription after their editorial stance chastising Tobin's (very popular) attempt to have Voiseys Bay nickel processed in the province (we should shut up and let INCO figure out where it should go, or else be rightly cast off by the mandrins of Bay Street).   I kept my National Post subscription due to 1: their covering of national defence issues, 2: their former offering of some counterpoint to the Liberal machine.  

Now I feel like cancelling the Post subscription as well, after their contemptable, ignorant editorials on this matter (and I don't mean contemptable, ignorant as in, not agreeing with my point of view, I mean plain old-fashioned blunt ignorance).  I fear I'm backing myself into a cave with these protest cancellations, I have to read _something_.  I guess the Post was at least less openly insulting than Wente's take on the matter.  Sheesh.

When did I get so out of whack with the politics of this land anyway?   I believe it started with watching the Liberals piss away Canada's standing in the world with their defence (non)policy .  No vision, no guts, no honesty; and we just keep lapping it up.

Last night, I watched the Minister of National Defence on the CBC claiming (with a straight face!) that foreign subs navigating unannounced in Canadian Arctic waters was not a big issue.  Whaaaaaat?  I'm half hoping that the Russians start doing winter warfare exercises on Baffin Island so we can watch Paul say that he is considering drafting a nasty letter to Putin demanding that Russian forces pick up their garbage when they are done, and then read the Globe's editorial outrage at the soldiers disturbing of the seals sleep patterns.  (sorry, our eroding soverignty is another thread).    

Off topic but on -   If you catch my drift

I have been a loyal reader of the National Post since it came out. I state without reservation I am a fan of Conrad Black.   One of the reasons I read the Post was because it wasn't Ontario Liberal Centrist.

I now find, as pointed out, that there is no difference between David Asper's Martinite Centrist Paper and Jeffrey Simpson's Martinite Centrist Paper.

As an unabashed Provincialist whose heart lies in Alberta, despite living in BC, I fully support Danny Williams and the Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.

Funny how most "Newfoundlanders" interviewed by the CBC to support PM all talk like they are "from away".

Not many supporters in Harbour Grace I'll warrant.

 

[ex_coelis]

Todays St. John's Evening Telegram, for some counterpoint...

Thursday, January 6, 2005
Flag being pulled in all directions  
By THE TELEGRAM


Thanks to John Efford and the federal side, the chips truly are on the table â ” the political bargaining chips, that is.

You can think what you like about Premier Danny Williams' decision to lower the Canadian flag at provincial buildings. Lots of people clearly think lots of different things â ” this newspaper has received a torrent of letters to the editor on the topic, coming from across the country and representing all points of view.

There are those, for example, who suggest that what the federal government is doing to this province is no different than what this province does to Labrador â ” that is, soaking up the lion's share of natural resource revenues while sending virtually nothing back to the Big Land.

There are those who suggest that the province's stand dishonours veterans, and there are those who back Williams absolutely.

And then there's Efford, who opined on Canada Now recently that he was feeling short of friends in this province. Efford, and Prime Minister Paul Martin, have been particularly direct about the province's lowering of the Canadian flag. It is, they've said, political posturing of the worst kind, an abuse of a national symbol. Canada's flag, they maintain, should not be used as a bargaining chip.

Now, that's interesting.

On Canada Now this week, Efford said that there will be no talks between the federal and provincial governments on offshore revenues until the Maple Leaf is flying again over provincial government buildings.

That sentiment was echoed by Scott Reid, the spokesman for the Prime Minister's Office, who speaks when Paul Martin doesn't want anyone to see his own lips moving.

Reid is already notorious for stirring the pot and has had to back down from comments he's made about this dispute already.

His latest offering? â Å“Let's lower the rhetoric, let's raise the flag, and let's get this deal done,â ? the Canadian Press quotes Reid as saying.

â Å“Federal officials cannot sit down for a detailed discussion while the flag remains down.â ?

As we've already said, you can look at Williams' decision any way you like.

But any suggestion that the flag isn't being used as a political bargaining chip by the federal government just went right out the window. Because that is exactly what they themselves are now doing â ” â Å“Put the flag up, or no talks.â ?

It makes any federal criticism of Williams' actions just about as hollow as it could possibly be â ” a difficult effort, you must remember, given the fact that ships belonging to Paul Martin's former shipping empire lowered the Canadian flag as soon as it was even slightly financially expedient for them to do just that.

It does something else, too. Not only does it make Efford and Reid â ” and by extension, Martin as well â ” look sanctimonious in the extreme, it also shows that they are willing to be downright dishonest about what they claim to believe.

But wait â ” honesty is what this whole issue is supposed to be all about, remember?

On sincerity, perhaps that puts the score Danny Williams 2, the federal crowd 0.

And Efford? Fast becoming the biggest zero of all.

 

[Bograt]

When did I get so out of whack with the politics of this land anyway?   I believe it started with watching the Liberals piss away Canada's standing in the world with their defence (non)policy .  No vision, no guts, no honesty; and we just keep lapping it up.

I wonder as well. Where did my country go? I hurt for the poor bastards who died at Juno beach. I hurt for the poor bastards who died at Gilipoli and Beaumont Hamel. I hurt for Cpl. Murphey and Lt. Saunders. Is this what we have become?

I just wish that this Oil and gas thing could be settled so we could focus on more pressing issues- like marijuana decriminalization, national day care, transparent immigration policy (pun intended), sponsorship programs, CSL a loans, Bombardier grants, gun registry..................

Vote Liberal...it is easier than thinking!