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Defining Foreign and Defence Policy (and hence our Military Force)

Chris Pook said:
And yet, when the community has decided there is a greater need, we appear to be derelict for contributing less than we can.  The US can't assume the burden indefinitely (Trump and Clinton are just making explicit what the voters already know).

In progressive terms Canada is the 1% that benefits but doesn't pay.

PS - Although my sympathies lie with the Army, I would suggest that our best "bang for buck" comes from a large, deployable Air Force and Navy.  They can transition rapidly from war to peace and back to war in a generally peacetime environment with reduced risk of unsightly spectacles along the Highways of Heroes.

The Stark incident: 37 dead, 21 injured;
The Roberts incident: no dead, 10 injured;
The Cole incident: 17 dead, 39 injured.

We had Canadian warships deployed in all those theatres at the time.

We've escaped any such incident so far. Is it luck? And if so, how long will it hold?

Single engagements are less frequent in naval warfare - even of the "terrorism" type - but they tend to cause more casualties per event than the Army ones when they occur. I am talking in general terms here (and about single engagements) - I realize you have some bad land engagements, like the 710 casualties at Beaumont Hamel of the Royal Newfoundland Regiment, but you can also compare them with the 1415 casualties in only a few minutes  of the Hood in the battle of Denmark Straight.

If you remember what took place in Canada in the wake of the day of our greatest single day loss (four soldiers if I recall correctly, with about a dozen injured at the same time), can you imagine what would occur the day you tell Canadians you just lost 30 sailors and injured another 60?
 
OGBD

I don't say the eliminated risk, I just say the reduced risk.

In my view the reality is that while sailors and aviators are always at risk, the level of risk, on average is low.

For the Army, again in my view, the reality is something other.  In truth the level of risk for a soldier in a peacetime army is generally considerably less than that experienced by sailors and aviators.

However that changes dramatically when the Army is deployed - and how much that changes depends on how far forward it is deployed and the nature of the defences it faces.  That degree of confrontation can be managed, calibrated, by the government of the day.  Ultimately the government will decide how many hearses it is prepared to see on the 401.  When the Army is committed by the government it is likely that most of those hearses will be carrying soldiers.

Personally, I would prefer to put as few bodies at risk as possible and pay our bills in technology, not blood.  In fact that is the reason that I continue to argue for a large number of vessels with a small number of sailors.  And equally, a large number of aircraft with a small number of aviators.

I would say the same about the Army if I could, but unfortunately it is difficult to divide a pair of muddy boots and still have them be effective.
 
Journeyman said:
          :not-again:

1.  The title of the graph states quite clearly "....as a share of Gross Domestic Product."

2.  GDP is a common NATO accounting guideline agreed to by Canada.


Given these two obvious attributes, how can this possibly be misleading?    ::)

Because it doesn't have any context whatsoever.  Canada is the 6th largest spender in NATO, and the 16th largest in the world.
 
jmt18325 said:
Because it doesn't have any context whatsoever.  Canada is the 6th largest spender in NATO, and the 16th largest in the world.

And we are reneging on our commitments to the tune of 18 Billion US Dollars and are responsible for 20% of the 90 BUSD shortfall in NATO defence funds.  Second only to Germany which is short by 30 BUSD.
 
How is NATO short?  What, specifically,  does NATO lack?  Or is this merely an arbitrary number based on a crude metric, and not driven by any capability based assessment?
 
Chris Pook said:
And we are reneging on our commitments to the tune of 18 Billion US Dollars and are responsible for 20% of the 90 BUSD shortfall in NATO defence funds.  Second only to Germany which is short by 30 BUSD.

What pressing threat is there to Canada that could possibly justify doubling our military budget?  I can see putting back the money that the Conservatives cut, if we're going to stick with their plan (we're not) and adding a few billing for capabilities we may be lacking, but $18B? 

It's an arbitrary number that is completely meaningless.  If NATO wants to throw out their 6th highest contributor, let them.
 
In Warsaw, Trudeau to stress Canada's NATO support beyond numbers
Prime Minister to also call for Brexit calm, CETA progress

Amanda Connolly
iPolitics
06 July 2016

As NATO meets in Warsaw this week in a capital heavy with post-Cold War symbolism, Justin Trudeau will be armed with a response to U.S. President Barack Obama’s vehement plea to Canada’s Parliament that “NATO needs more Canada.”

In a technical briefing Wednesday, senior government officials told reporters that Trudeau will stress that measuring defence spending as a percentage of GDP is not the only metric NATO allies should be using to assess military contributions and support for the alliance.

Officials outlined several of the key areas of focus for the prime minister during the crucial summit, which will unfold in the Polish capital Friday and Saturday after a period of Russian expansionism and amid political and economic turmoil in Europe.

They said Canada does not feel defensive about its military spending, currently at .98 per cent of GDP, despite the call from Obama during his address to Parliament last week to do more.

The alliance has a goal of getting members to commit to spending 2 per cent of GDP on defence but few have met that target.

...

The discussions on Afghanistan will unfold in the wake of Obama’s announcement today that he is backing away from an earlier pledge to drawback the American presence in the country because of the “precarious” situation there.

He will leave 8,400 troops in Afghanistan until the end of his term this November, still significantly less than the roughly 40,000 that were there when he first took office in 2012.

His goal had been to reduce the number to 5,500 by the time he left office but noted Wednesday that “we have to deal with the realities of the world as they exist.”

Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan will accompany Trudeau for the summit but his schedule is not yet confirmed.

...
https://ipolitics.ca/2016/07/06/in-warsaw-trudeau-to-stress-canadas-nato-support-beyond-numbers/


Darkening world a challenge for Liberals’ sunny ways 
John Ibbitson
The Globe and Mail
09 July 2016

The students in Stéfanie von Hlatky’s classes have no idea of what it’s like to live in a world of great nations in conflict, balance-of-power diplomacy and war that could kill thousands or millions as a constant threat.

“They’re all people who were children when 9/11 happened, and that’s their frame of reference,” Prof. von Hlatky, a political scientist at Queen’s University, observes in an interview.

That’s all changing. As Justin Trudeau and the other NATO heads of government conclude their summit in Warsaw Saturday, they face an old-new reality of Russia and China challenging the West’s supremacy, a challenge not seen since the days of the Prime Minister’s father. Meeting that challenge will test Mr. Trudeau’s sunny assumptions about Canada as a helpful fixer in the world, as the Liberal government struggles to shape a new and coherent policy for the country’s defence.

“History is back,” asserts Andrew Rasiulis, rebutting the 1992 claim by Francis Fukuyama that the end of the Cold War marked, ideologically, the end of history. “But it’s back in a more complex way.”

Mr. Rasiulis is a retired military analyst and fellow at the Canadian Global Affairs Institute. (All of those interviewed for this story are fellows at the institute.) For almost 30 years, he observes, the United States, NATO and other countries of the West have dominated the globe geopolitically, bothered by terrorist threats and sundry insurgencies, but never fundamentally challenged.

But the rising influence and belligerence of China and Russia are confronting Western hegemony in ways not seen since the days of the Soviet Union and Mao Zedong.

“It’s patently the case that we’re back in a situation of great powers competing,” says Julian Lindley-French, a British strategic analyst and vice president of the Atlantic Treaty Association, which studies NATO-related issues. “And it’s interfering with every conflict in the world.”

Russian President Vladimir Putin stunned Western politicians with his annexations in Georgia and Ukraine. To deter further aggression, NATO is bolstering its borders, with the Canadian government detailing at the Warsaw summit it plans to lead a battalion-sized land force in Latvia, part of a new brigade-sized commitment by NATO to Poland and the three Baltic states.

Analysts agree that these reinforcements would be quickly overwhelmed by Russian forces in an invasion. The real purpose of the brigade is to serve as a “tripwire” – a warning to Russia that any moves against the Baltic States or Poland would mean war with the United States, Canada and the rest of NATO.

Strangely enough, the greatest threat to Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania might be found in the Western Pacific. There, China is expanding its navy and turning atolls into airstrips to bolster its claim that the South China Sea is actually a Chinese lake.

Marius Grinius, a retired Canadian diplomat who was ambassador to Vietnam and South and North Korea, points out that Chinese power, wealth and influence have been growing for decades, to the point where “there is now a sense that the Middle Kingdom has to take its place in the world.” Whether it does so peacefully or in conflict with its neighbours and the United States is the most important geopolitical question of our time, what Mr. Grinius calls “the new Great Game.”

The nightmare scenario for Mr. Lindley-French involves rising tensions between China and an overstretched United States in the Pacific, a Middle East in ferment and Europe weak and divided, convincing Mr. Putin that he can get away with snatching territory in the Baltics or somewhere else. And in the background lurks the deadly knowledge that the great powers still have large stockpiles of nuclear weapons.

Add in the continuing threats of terrorism, insurgency, regional instability and the increasing challenge to collective security of global warming, and the world starts to look geopolitically like a collection of dangerous neighbourhoods.

These challenges – both new and old fashioned – confront a Canadian government determined to replace Conservative belligerence with Liberal engagement, peace-making with peacekeeping.

“Trudeau and the Liberals wish that Defence would just go away,” Mr. Rasiulis believes. “Defence is not sunny.” Though Mr. Rasiulis does believe the new government deserves praise for doing a better job than the Conservatives of mixing defence with diplomacy.

The Liberals have already signalled that they have no intention of keeping a commitment by NATO members, made at the last summit in 2014, to gradually raise their defence spending to 2 per cent of GDP, if they are not at that level already. Canadian defence spending is .98 per cent of GDP, one of the lowest levels in NATO.

“The world needs more Canada. NATO needs more Canada,” U.S. President Barack Obama declared during his speech to Parliament in June – a subtle jab at Canada’s tendency, as the saying goes, to give all aid short of help.

The Liberals argue that Canada spends its defence dollars so wisely that big increases aren’t necessary. “We do not feel defensive about our spend[ing],” a senior government official speaking on background told reporters earlier this week at a NATO summit briefing. “The spend[ing] is not the only metric we should be using.”


Prof. von Hlatky believes the government has a point. The Canadian Forces have evolved over the past decade or so into a flexible, superbly trained and reasonably well-equipped force, she says. “Since the U.S. and NATO allies are faced with very diverse threats all over the world, Canada can play a role in all of those conflicts because of their training and their high level of professionalism.”

Nonetheless, the new commitment to send troops to Latvia while seeking as well to expand engagement in the United Nations and other multilateral forums, especially though new peacekeeping commitments, will stretch the Canadian military to the limit. “We’re going to do deterrence, we’re going to do counterterrorism, we’re going to do peacekeeping,” Prof. von Hlatky observes. “That’s a lot.”

Ultimately, the new government may have no choice but to increase spending on defence. Take the vexed question of replacing the aging fleet of CF-18 fighters. The Liberals promised during the election campaign to scrap the Conservative commitment to the Lockheed Martin F-35, find something cheaper and spend the savings on the navy, which is desperately in need of new ships.

But while a last-generation fighter might be sufficient for bombing and strafing militants in Middle Eastern hills, it won’t do the job in contested airspace over Europe against the best Russian planes.

“They have a choice to make,” says Mr. Lindley-French of the new government. “Either they’re serious or they’re not. My sense of Mr. Trudeau thus far is that he’s not, that he wants to be a free rider.” Of course, sheltering beneath the American security umbrella, squeezing the defence budget and spending the money on domestic social programs is as Canadian as tinkering with the national anthem.

Still, Canada’s new NATO commitment is bold and real. And the Liberals are once again reviewing the criteria for the next-generation jet fighter, suggesting the F-35 might be back on the table. The government has also launched a defence policy review. (Defence and foreign policy reviews appear to be irresistible temptations for new governments.) That review might conclude that Canada should focus on hard policy in Europe, by bolstering its NATO commitment, and soft policy in China, by cultivating improved relations with Beijing, while looking for opportunities to make meaningful contributions to peacekeeping duties, if and when they arise.

“For Canada, the question has to be, how can we be the most reliable alliance partner with the limited means that we have,” says Prof. von Hlatky. “We do that by having a highly competent, professional armed forces that can be nimble and that can assist in various types of situations.”

That would be one way for Canada to meaningfully contribute to peace and security in a new but dangerously old-fashioned world order.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/darkening-world-a-challenge-for-liberals-sunny-ways/article30843212/
 
Earlier this month (as well as late last month), there was a lot of media discussion on the NATO nations' commitment to spend 2% of GDP and about the appropriateness of that metric as compared to other less tangible ideas such as the quality of our force and our "operational outputs."  I question if the argument that Canada has "always stepped up well above many other NATO partners" is an argument that is perceived to be true outside of this country.  Yes, we did take an incredibly difficult AO with Kandahar and it cost us a significant price in blood ... but I seem to recall that we received that AO because we were late deciding to come to the plate after other NATO nations had already agreed to step-up and take their own AOs within the original ISAF boundaries.  We also made a big show of concluding our mission well ahead of those other nations who were/are still shouldering their own AOs, and we were all but absent from NATO's other big mission through this time period.  KFOR remained a significant focus of NATO efforts for years after we dropped to token Canadian representation (and it would seem the alliance still has 5,500 pers deployed of which only 5 are Canadian).

There can be no doubt that those elements that Canada contributes to international operations are highly capable organizations which perform outstandingly.  But stepping back from the battle groups, ships and task forces - are we really "punching above our weight" as a nation?  Is that how our allies see it?  Certainly, Obama's comments to the Canadian Parliament suggest the US sees Canada as a nation punching below our weight (to put a new spin on a worn-out phrase).  We are not living to our potential.

As for being satisfied with spending below 1% GDP, if our spending levels are adequate then why do we constantly short-change our requirements when we go to procurements?  Why do we buy fleets of fighting vehicles but skimp on the necessary support vehicles for lack of money?  Why was discussion framed as a cost choice between the F-35 or a lesser fighter with a more capable Navy fleet?  Why have we been gutting PYs out of the Army field force (the organization which most heavily paid Canada's self-held belief of punching above our weight) instead of authorizing and funding new PYs to grow the new capabilities such as Cyber?  Why did we allow the Air Defence capability to atrophy out of the Army?  Why did we sacrifice pioneers, anti-armour and mortars in the infantry?  Why are combat engineers operating heavy equipment so old that replacement parts are no longer available to buy?  Why are we selling B Fleet and TLAV vehicles without replacement?  Does a shortage of funding over successive governments have anything to do with this?

Is 1% of GDP really enough to get the military we need if we want to claim that we are shouldering our share of responsibility?  Is 1% of GDP enough to meet NATO and NORAD obligations while expanding (and properly resourcing) our commitment to UN peace support operations?

The government is right.  Percentage of GDP is not the only metric of what we bring to NATO; it is more a metric of actual capability against potential capability.  Digging below the surface, < 1% of GDP is not getting the military capability that we pretend to have.

Trudeau repurposes Tory lines about military spending after criticism from NATO
Lee Berthiaume, The Canadian Press
National Post
06 July 2016

OTTAWA — Prime Minister Justin Trudeau defended Canada’s record on military spending Tuesday, saying the country has consistently shouldered a heavier burden than many of its allies when it counts the most.

NATO reported this week that Canadian defence spending in 2015 hit levels not seen in decades, falling to 0.98 per cent of gross domestic product. That is less than half the two per cent of GDP target that all NATO members, including Canada, agreed to in 2014.

But documents obtained by the Canadian Press show the previous Conservative government never actually committed to meet that NATO target, which would equate to about $40 billion a year.

Instead, the Conservatives quietly pushed the alliance to recognize other “outputs” from Canada such as the contributions it has made to both NATO and non-NATO missions around the world.

Trudeau appeared to be picking up on that theme during a news conference after an unrelated announcement in Montreal.

He was asked whether he would commit to the two per cent target when he meets with other NATO leaders in Poland later this week.

Trudeau didn’t respond directly. Instead, he pointed to the government’s announcement last week that Canada will take a leadership role in a new multinational force in Eastern Europe as the latest example of the country pulling its weight.

“We have always stepped up well above many other NATO partners to engage, and that’s actually highlighted by our engagement around Operation Reassurance,” Trudeau said.

Canadian troops are expected to be deployed to Latvia, where they will make up the majority of a 1,000-strong battalion that serve as a deterrent against Russian aggression. Germany, the U.K. and the U.S. will lead similar units in Lithuania, Estonia and Poland.

“We continue to be a valued and valuable partner in NATO,” Trudeau added, “and I look forward to productive discussions in Warsaw with our NATO partners about how Canada can continue to contribute to peace and security in the world.”

All NATO countries, including Canada, agreed in 2014 to stop cutting military budgets and work towards spending two per cent of GDP on defence. The goal was intended to ensure all alliance members were doing their fair share, which includes investing enough to field a modern military.

The target has taken on added importance following Russia’s own military buildup, and criticisms from some U.S. senators and Republic presidential hopeful Donald Trump about NATO members not pulling their weight. Obama also raised the issue in his address to Parliament last week.

NATO estimates Canadian defence spending will increase slightly this year, to 0.99 per cent of GDP. However, that will still leave Canada 23rd out of 28 NATO members.

The previous Conservative government also tried to defend against criticism of Canada’s defence spending by pointing to its contributions to operations overseas, according to a briefing note prepared for Trudeau last November and obtained through access to information law.

Canada wanted a “qualitative assessment of defence contributions based on ‘outputs’ and did not commit to achieving a fixed target of two per cent of GDP,” the note reads.

“Instead, Canada expressed a commitment to continue to develop its national capabilities and to contribute as full partners in NATO missions as well as non-NATO missions with our NATO allies.”

Defence analyst David Perry of the Canadian Global Affairs Institute said it’s nearly impossible to imagine any Canadian prime minister actually committing to the two per cent target, which would mean doubling defence spending.

However, he also didn’t believe it’s possible to maintain an effective, state-of-the-art Canadian Armed Forces at the current spending levels.
 
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-politics/trudeau-repurposes-tory-lines-about-military-spending-after-criticism-from-nato

Trudeau defends Canada’s military spending record, points to NATO contribution
'We continue to be a valued and valuable partner in NATO,' Justin Trudeau said, as he referred to the most recent mission in Eastern Europe.

By Lee Berthiaume, The Canadian Press
The Star
05 July 2016

OTTAWA — Prime Minister Justin Trudeau defended Canada’s record on military spending Tuesday by pointing out that the country has consistently done more than many allies in other ways — most recently in Eastern Europe.

NATO reported this week that Canadian defence spending hit record lows last year, falling to 0.98 per cent of gross domestic product. That is less than half the two per cent target that all NATO members, including Canada, agreed to in 2014.

Asked during a press conference in Montreal on Tuesday whether he would commit to the two per cent target when he travels to Poland later this week, Trudeau instead referenced the Liberal government’s decision to have Canada lead a 1,000-strong NATO force in Eastern Europe.

“We have always stepped up well above many other NATO partners to engage, and that’s actually highlighted by our engagement around Operation Reassurance,” Trudeau said.

“We continue to be a valued and valuable partner in NATO,” he added, “and I look forward to productive discussions in Warsaw with our NATO partners about how Canada can continue to contribute to peace and security in the world.”

Trudeau will travel to the Polish capital later this week for meetings with the 27 other NATO leaders. Allied defence spending is expected to be one of the major topics of discussion, alongside the threat posed by Russia and the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant.

All NATO countries, including Canada, agreed in 2014 to stop cutting military budgets and work towards spending two per cent of GDP on defence. The goal was intended to ensure all alliance members were doing their fair share, which includes investing enough to field a modern military.

The target has taken on added importance thanks to Russia’s own military buildup, as well as criticisms in the U.S. from senators and Republican presidential hopeful Donald Trump about some members not pulling their weight.

Obama was also seen to have gently rebuked Canada on the issue in his address to Parliament last week, saying: “As your ally and as your friend, let me say that we’ll be more secure when every NATO member, including Canada, contributes its full share to our common security.”

The alliance does estimate that Canadian defence spending will increase slightly this year, to 0.99 per cent of GDP. However, that will still leave Canada 23rd out of 28 NATO members.
https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2016/07/05/trudeau-defends-canadas-military-spending-record-points-to-nato-contribution.html
 
jmt18325 said:
What pressing threat is there to Canada that could possibly justify doubling our military budget?  I can see putting back the money that the Conservatives cut, if we're going to stick with their plan (we're not) and adding a few billing for capabilities we may be lacking, but $18B? 

It's an arbitrary number that is completely meaningless.  If NATO wants to throw out their 6th highest contributor, let them.

That said, I would be interested to see a graphic that shows how our military spending rates once adjusted for personnel costs, which are significantly higher than other NATO partners (just O&M). Do we spend more on actual army stuff rather than salaries/pension relative to other nations or less? For the 6th largest spender in NATO we sure don't seem to get as much out of it as a lot of those other nations considering we have a Navy that is basically broken, fly a small number of old fighters, have a small number of transport aircraft, have a significant number of vacancies in key units (particularly when numbers reflect trained strength not on PCAT/TCAT) and no AH/AT/GBAD whatsoever.
 
Bird_Gunner45 said:
That said, I would be interested to see a graphic that shows how our military spending rates once adjusted for personnel costs, which are significantly higher than other NATO partners (just O&M). Do we spend more on actual army stuff rather than salaries/pension relative to other nations or less? For the 6th largest spender in NATO we sure don't seem to get as much out of it as a lot of those other nations considering we have a Navy that is basically broken, fly a small number of old fighters, have a small number of transport aircraft, have a significant number of vacancies in key units (particularly when numbers reflect trained strength not on PCAT/TCAT) and no AH/AT/GBAD whatsoever.

Concur. Because of geography, low population density and other factors such as two official languages, our fixed costs for administration are high. Now toss in a propensity to create a labyrinth of headquarters that seem to do little other than pass paper, electronically or not and, at least in the opinion of one who served in a regime when our command and control was much leaner, we - okay, you - run an extremely costly and inefficient organization.
 
Bird_Gunner45 said:
That said, I would be interested to see a graphic that shows how our military spending rates once adjusted for personnel costs, which are significantly higher than other NATO partners (just O&M). Do we spend more on actual army stuff rather than salaries/pension relative to other nations or less? For the 6th largest spender in NATO we sure don't seem to get as much out of it as a lot of those other nations considering we have a Navy that is basically broken, fly a small number of old fighters, have a small number of transport aircraft, have a significant number of vacancies in key units (particularly when numbers reflect trained strength not on PCAT/TCAT) and no AH/AT/GBAD whatsoever.

Do we really compare that badly?  Yes, we have an old fighter fleet, but it's completely modern, going through yet another set of upgrades that are equal to what the US Marines are using, and better than what many are flying.  Many NATO countries have a much smaller fleet yet.

Do we really have a broken navy by NATO standards overall?  True, we're currently lacking AORs, but how many other forces in NATO have 12 surface combatants that can compare with the Halifax class, and spend less than us (maybe Spain - but not 12).

Do we really have few transport aircraft?  We have 17 C-130j, 5 C-17s (only two other NATO countries with that kind of lift), plus the Buffalo and the Twotter.  We now have Chinooks and a large number of light helicopters.

Yes, we're missing key capabilities - AORs, air defense, amphibious lift capability, etc, and we need new trucks, but, despite some old equipment, we actually compare not as bad as some people make it out.  We actually have 2 Navy ships under construction (one is a lease, yes), soon to be 3, and 2 large CCG ships (soon to be 3) under construction.  We actually have modern tanks with modern armored vehicles and trucks being delivered or on the way.  There's not as many as we once had, but did we really need that many?  Again, is there a pressing treat that requires all of that?

I'd argue that we should keep our navy combatant fleet and defense fighter fleet strong enough, and most anything else we spend is a gift to Europe and the rest of NATO.

I'm interested to see what the defense review comes out with, as we'll then be able to gauge the Liberal plan, and what level of spending is needed to suspend it.  We know the Conservative plan.  It was fine, but they undercut it by under funding their own plan.
 
Old Sweat said:
Concur. Because of geography, low population density and other factors such as two official languages, our fixed costs for administration are high. Now toss in a propensity to create a labyrinth of headquarters that seem to do little other than pass paper, electronically or not and, at least in the opinion of one who served in a regime when our command and control was much leaner, we - okay, you - run an extremely costly and inefficient organization.

And I agree with all of that.  That said, until this year (and we'll see what happens this year) DND has been returning money it couldn't spend because of a lack of procurement people and know how.  Not only that, but money has now been pushed forward 3 times for the same reason.  Before spending any more money, that all has to be fixed.
 
jmt18325 said:
Do we really compare that badly?  Yes, we have an old fighter fleet, but it's completely modern, going through yet another set of upgrades that are equal to what the US Marines are using, and better than what many are flying.  Many NATO countries have a much smaller fleet yet.

Do we really have a broken navy by NATO standards overall?  True, we're currently lacking AORs, but how many other forces in NATO have 12 surface combatants that can compare with the Halifax class, and spend less than us (maybe Spain - but not 12).

Do we really have few transport aircraft?  We have 17 C-130j, 5 C-17s (only two other NATO countries with that kind of lift), plus the Buffalo and the Twotter.  We now have Chinooks and a large number of light helicopters.

Yes, we're missing key capabilities - AORs, air defense, amphibious lift capability, etc, and we need new trucks, but, despite some old equipment, we actually compare not as bad as some people make it out.  We actually have 2 Navy ships under construction (one is a lease, yes), soon to be 3, and 2 large CCG ships (soon to be 3) under construction.  We actually have modern tanks with modern armored vehicles and trucks being delivered or on the way.  There's not as many as we once had, but did we really need that many?  Again, is there a pressing treat that requires all of that?

I'd argue that we should keep our navy combatant fleet and defense fighter fleet strong enough, and most anything else we spend is a gift to Europe and the rest of NATO.

I'm interested to see what the defense review comes out with, as we'll then be able to gauge the Liberal plan, and what level of spending is needed to suspend it.  We know the Conservative plan.  It was fine, but they undercut it by under funding their own plan.

Who said anything about Liberals or Conservatives? Stick to the topic and stop trying to make everything about politics. I could get a %&^$ less about who is in charge so long as they fix the massive amount of overhead we seem to maintain for ourselves that limits our actual O&M funds.
 
jmt18325 said:
And I agree with all of that.  That said, until this year (and we'll see what happens this year) DND has been returning money it couldn't spend because of a lack of procurement people and know how.  Not only that, but money has now been pushed forward 3 times for the same reason.  Before spending any more money, that all has to be fixed.


With respect, JMT - we have been waiting a century for that to be fixed and it is a work in progress for our allies.  The replacement and enhancement of our defences has to continue regardless while realistically accepting the inefficiencies in place.

As to the cost of our contribution vice the threat to Canada.  As a trading nation (assuming we are a trading nation and not a nation of park wardens), as a trading nation it is important that the Commons are orderly and are safe places to travel.  Consider our contribution as that necessary to police the Commons.
 
Bird_Gunner45 said:
Who said anything about Liberals or Conservatives? Stick to the topic and stop trying to make everything about politics. I could get a %&^$ less about who is in charge so long as they fix the massive amount of overhead we seem to maintain for ourselves that limits our actual O&M funds.

If that's all you got out of what I said, I'm sorry.

I wasn't actually making a political commentary.  Right now, we have the Canada First Defence Strategy.  It is currently underfunded as planned.  We have to wait and see what the Liberals come up with as a plan and these if they find it properly.
 
Chris Pook said:
With respect, JMT - we have been waiting a century for that to be fixed and it is a work in progress for our allies.  The replacement and enhancement of our defences has to continue regardless while realistically accepting the inefficiencies in place.

I refuse to accept that DND can't at least figure out how to spend the money that they do get in a timely manner.

As to the cost of our contribution vice the threat to Canada.  As a trading nation (assuming we are a trading nation and not a nation of park wardens), as a trading nation it is important that the Commons are orderly and are safe places to travel.  Consider our contribution as that necessary to police the Commons.

I'm not sure it's worth the cost in many cases.
 
Bird_Gunner45 said:
That said, I would be interested to see a graphic that shows how our military spending rates once adjusted for personnel costs, which are significantly higher than other NATO partners (just O&M). Do we spend more on actual army stuff rather than salaries/pension relative to other nations or less? For the 6th largest spender in NATO we sure don't seem to get as much out of it as a lot of those other nations considering we have a Navy that is basically broken, fly a small number of old fighters, have a small number of transport aircraft, have a significant number of vacancies in key units (particularly when numbers reflect trained strength not on PCAT/TCAT) and no AH/AT/GBAD whatsoever.

While it probably is not as simplified a graphic as you hope for, you will find some tables here that show a breakdown by category as a percentage of each NATO country's defence spending.

The categories are:

1.  Personnel - Personnel expenditures include military and civilian expenditures and pensions.
2.  Equipment - Equipment expenditures include major equipment expenditures and R&D devoted to major equipment.
3.  Infrastructure
4.  Other - Other expenditures include operations and maintenance expenditures, other R&D expenditures and expenditures not allocated among above-mentioned categories.
 

Attachments

  • NATO spending eqpt and pers.png
    NATO spending eqpt and pers.png
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jmt18325 said:
What pressing threat is there to Canada that could possibly justify doubling our military budget?  I can see putting back the money that the Conservatives cut, if we're going to stick with their plan (we're not) and adding a few billing for capabilities we may be lacking, but $18B? 

It's an arbitrary number that is completely meaningless.  If NATO wants to throw out their 6th highest contributor, let them.

Let's use the deterrence force to Latvia as an example.  If the Russians roll over that token force, what is our response?  What will Canada's contribution to NATOs response be?  We won't have any meaningful contribution.  As a G7 nation we should be able to wield more force than we currently can.  We should have far more strike/fighter aircraft and far more ships and subs than we do.  That's the problem. 
 
QV said:
Let's use the deterrence force to Latvia as an example.  If the Russians roll over that token force, what is our response?  What will Canada's contribution to NATOs response be?  We won't have any meaningful contribution.  As a G7 nation we should be able to wield more force than we currently can.  We should have far more strike/fighter aircraft and far more ships and subs than we do.  That's the problem.

We'd have some kind of response, in the form of ships and a few fighters aircraft, for sure, and probably whatever was left of our army at that point.  Still, I don't see that as a realistic outcome to what's currently going on, and I don't see it as a big concern.
 
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