Directives to military chaplains urge expunging God, religion from Remembrance Day, public ceremonies

[The Bread Guy]

For the record, to supplement the bought-and-paid-for media summary, here's the info-machine's directive

Chaplain General Direction on Chaplain's Spiritual Reflection in Public Settings - Canada.ca

www.canada.ca

Also archived here & attached in case anyone wants to check a primary source.

 

[JLB50]

Maybe I am an old fart, and perhaps unenlightened and perhaps prejudiced in my views but Canada was and is a Christian nation founded on Christian concepts. Personally I don’t go to church and feel a lot of the Bible should not be taken literally. Having said that, I think the LPC is out to take away all of our traditions. My father in law fought in the SDG Highlanders in WW2. What next? Take away their kilts and make them wear turbans?

 

[YZT580]

In the event of a nuclear attack, hurricane, flood or any other major natural disaster, the prohibitions concerning prayer in this public place are temporarily suspended. (courtesy of MAD magazine)

 

[btrudy]

Maybe I am an old fart, and perhaps unenlightened and perhaps prejudiced in my views but Canada was and is a Christian nation founded on Christian concepts. Personally I don’t go to church and feel a lot of the Bible should not be taken literally. Having said that, I think the LPC is out to take away all of our traditions. My father in law fought in the SDG Highlanders in WW2. What next? Take away their kilts and make them wear turbans?

Cultural practices are not inherently religious practices. One can stop having the government promoting the latter without needing to abandon any aspects of the former.

 

[Brad Sallows]

The whole point of chaplains is religious practice. If they're not going to be permitted to practice their respective religions properly, zero out the branch and save some money. Hire some more social workers.

 

[btrudy]

The whole point of chaplains is religious practice. If they're not going to be permitted to practice their respective religions properly, zero out the branch and save some money. Hire some more social workers.

On a day to day basis, how much of your average chaplain's work day is actually spent on religious practice? If it's over 5% I'd be shocked.

Perhaps religious practice was the justification for having chaplains when the position was created, but we've moved well past that point. The chaplain branch couldn't possibly justify their continued existence if all they did, or even if just the most important thing they did was religious practice.

But more to the point, "practicing their respective religions properly" is something that I would think is done at religious services, where the intended audience is other adherents of that particular faith.

Remembrance Day is not the occasion for that. Remembrance Day is about the fallen, not about the tenets of any particular religion. And let's be frank here, there is some massive bias going on in the reactions here. You know and I know that if we did adopt your proposed "let them practice their respective religions properly", the same folks complaining about this change would be even more pissed off when the Imans and the Rabbis start doing just that, instead of saying a meaningless prayer to some generic god.

The only reason that they'd gotten away with any prayers for this long is because the prayers that were being offered were not part of "their respective religions", but were instead generic words of remembrance that could reasonably be applied to any religion. So... if they're already not practicing their religion at Remembrance Day, then why not just make them fully secular words of remembrance?

Save the actual religious practices for actual religious ceremonies.

 

[ModlrMike]

We're forgetting the law of unintended consequences: fewer people attend making Remembrance Day less relevant. People don't attend Remembrance Day services because they're religious, they attend because the feel a sense of comfort. You are all correct that the specific words don't really matter, but having some recognizable religious undertone to the event is what people expect.

 

[daftandbarmy]

We're forgetting the law of unintended consequences: fewer people attend making Remembrance Day less relevant. People don't attend Remembrance Day services because they're religious, they attend because the feel a sense of comfort. You are all correct that the specific words don't really matter, but having some recognizable religious undertone to the event is what people expect.

Over the past few years I've seen record turnouts for Remembrance Day events at various cenotaphs in my part of the world which, allegedly, is one of the more 'Godless' in the country.

I can't imagine that changing some of the words spoken at these events would impact that attendance adversely in any way.

If anything, we should probably advocate for 'less blabbering and politiking', but who knows if that's even possible

 

[Colin Parkinson]

On a day to day basis, how much of your average chaplain's work day is actually spent on religious practice? If it's over 5% I'd be shocked.

Perhaps religious practice was the justification for having chaplains when the position was created, but we've moved well past that point. The chaplain branch couldn't possibly justify their continued existence if all they did, or even if just the most important thing they did was religious practice.

But more to the point, "practicing their respective religions properly" is something that I would think is done at religious services, where the intended audience is other adherents of that particular faith.

Remembrance Day is not the occasion for that. Remembrance Day is about the fallen, not about the tenets of any particular religion. And let's be frank here, there is some massive bias going on in the reactions here. You know and I know that if we did adopt your proposed "let them practice their respective religions properly", the same folks complaining about this change would be even more pissed off when the Imans and the Rabbis start doing just that, instead of saying a meaningless prayer to some generic god.

The only reason that they'd gotten away with any prayers for this long is because the prayers that were being offered were not part of "their respective religions", but were instead generic words of remembrance that could reasonably be applied to any religion. So... if they're already not practicing their religion at Remembrance Day, then why not just make them fully secular words of remembrance?

Save the actual religious practices for actual religious ceremonies.

If their enthusiasm to curb Christians was equally applied to Hindu's and Muslims then I would be OK. But there is far less enthusiasm there.

 

[RangerRay]

If anything, we should probably advocate for 'less blabbering and politiking', but who knows if that's even possible

That I can agree with. The best ceremonies I have taken part in stuck to the basics you see in every ceremony, and the announced wreaths for VIPS only. The worst one was in Victoria where every politician made a bloody speech that droned on, and they announced every wreath being laid, including “Canada Safeway Ltd”. That parade was the closest I came to thundering.

 

[SupersonicMax]

If their enthusiasm to curb Christians was equally applied to Hindu's and Muslims then I would be OK. But there is far less enthusiasm there.

Did I miss something are we’re doing Hindu and Muslim payers at ceremonies?

 

[rmc_wannabe]

I'm a practicing Presbyterian, and maybe it's that spirit of revision that is guiding me, but I don't see this as a bad thing.

My congregation still hold a Remembrance Sunday service the weekend prior that is very much Christian. I imagine the other denominations do as well (or don't, as many of those faiths we have representation in the CAF are actually pacifist in reality. Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.)

If Remembrance Day is then a non-secular commemoration, then it's far wider reaching and provides more things to more people.

The fact that the NP is the only news media outfit picking this up screams "Old Man Yells At Cloud" to me.

 

[Kirkhill]

Cultural practices are not inherently religious practices. One can stop having the government promoting the latter without needing to abandon any aspects of the former.

The whole point of chaplains is religious practice. If they're not going to be permitted to practice their respective religions properly, zero out the branch and save some money. Hire some more social workers.

On a day to day basis, how much of your average chaplain's work day is actually spent on religious practice? If it's over 5% I'd be shocked.

Perhaps religious practice was the justification for having chaplains when the position was created, but we've moved well past that point. The chaplain branch couldn't possibly justify their continued existence if all they did, or even if just the most important thing they did was religious practice.

But more to the point, "practicing their respective religions properly" is something that I would think is done at religious services, where the intended audience is other adherents of that particular faith.

Remembrance Day is not the occasion for that. Remembrance Day is about the fallen, not about the tenets of any particular religion. And let's be frank here, there is some massive bias going on in the reactions here. You know and I know that if we did adopt your proposed "let them practice their respective religions properly", the same folks complaining about this change would be even more pissed off when the Imans and the Rabbis start doing just that, instead of saying a meaningless prayer to some generic god.

The only reason that they'd gotten away with any prayers for this long is because the prayers that were being offered were not part of "their respective religions", but were instead generic words of remembrance that could reasonably be applied to any religion. So... if they're already not practicing their religion at Remembrance Day, then why not just make them fully secular words of remembrance?

Save the actual religious practices for actual religious ceremonies.

The difference between a Priest and a Minister perhaps? A Chaplain is the keeper of the Chapel, a place for religious devotions. A Priest is an accredited leader of the devotions, schooled in the mysteries. A Minister may or may not be a Priest, and may or may not be accredited. While the Minister can lead services on Sunday most of the week is spent ministering to the local flock - essentially the community's original social worker.

The Minister was responsible for the Health, Education and Welfare of the community, assisting the poor, the sick and the children.

We can debate the role of the priests and their prayers but their is an ongoing and demonstrable need for ministers regardless of what gods they personally celebrate.

 

[PMedMoe]

The fact that the NP is the only news media outfit picking this up screams "Old Man Yells At Cloud" to me.

I've seen similar stories by the Western Standard and Rebel News. Also, Blake Richards, a Conservative from Banff-Airdrie has gone so far as to claim that prayers have been cancelled at Remembrance Day ceremonies.

A tempest in a teapot, IMO.

 

[LaserBeamBanana]

Yeah. God is part of life and death. God belongs in Remembrance Day. Why not just go ahead and pussify and white wash Remembrance Day down to the same level of pathetic monoculture the civilian world is currently fostering World War 3 through.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Yeah. God is part of life and death. God belongs in Remembrance Day. Why not just go ahead and pussify and white wash Remembrance Day down to the same level of pathetic monoculture the civilian world is currently fostering World War 3 through.

For someone who has three posts on this forum, two of which are in the Recruiting threads; this is very much not how to post on the site.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Perhaps religious practice was the justification for having chaplains when the position was created, but we've moved well past that point. The chaplain branch couldn't possibly justify their continued existence if all they did, or even if just the most important thing they did was religious practice.

It was more of a need than a justification.

As you say, the branch couldn't possibly justify its existence if religion was all it did. If that's the case, replace it with something better suited to everything else that it does instead of handing off a package of other roles by default.

 

[Kirkhill]

It was more of a need than a justification.

As you say, the branch couldn't possibly justify its existence if religion was all it did. If that's the case, replace it with something better suited to everything else that it does instead of handing off a package of other roles by default.

Small communities that had people of multiple beliefs often used to build Meetinghouses rather than churches where ministers and priests of various faiths could conduct services. The meeting houses were explicitly non-denominational.

Meeting house - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[dimsum]

The opening preamble to the CA 1982:


Link

Sure, but it doesn’t mention which God. Maybe Canada is a Jewish or Muslim nation?

Yeah. God is part of life and death. God belongs in Remembrance Day. Why not just go ahead and pussify and white wash Remembrance Day down to the same level of pathetic monoculture the civilian world is currently fostering World War 3 through.

“Competing religions preventing wars” is an interesting take.

 

[Kirkhill]

Sure, but it doesn’t mention which God. Maybe Canada is a Jewish or Muslim nation?

“Competing religions preventing wars” is an interesting take.

Item the first - respect all beliefs and never criticize another for those beliefs.
Item the second - the modern enlightenment is built on the premise of toleration of religious beliefs.

The problem occurs when the tolerated do not wish to be tolerated.