Discussion on Israeli Strategy
- Thread starter tomahawk6
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Hey Jolly, Tamouh cut his own throat on here. Opinions are simply that, but to hear the same crap spewing from his mouth without backup and deliberatly refusing to answer direct questions is what arced me up, which tends to have me thinking he was a fraud or at best a troll, looking for an audience.
Before you go barking at us, read ALL of his posts. Although some have kinda some of merrit, look at the action he takes when he is backed into a corner. Many here have a different view than myself, and I repect that, but this guy went too far.
So, don't go throwing your TI back and saying SHAME, and go on about sacrifice of others, while comparing what has been said on here to Tamouh. We all know that price of our freedoms many take for granted was paid for with the blood of over 100,000 Canadians in the 20th century alone, and the price is still being paid right now. We all have our fare share of relatives who fought from Passchendaele Vimy, Ortona, Dieppe, D-Day and the rest through to Kapyong and beyond, including mine, some who never made it back, and we don't have to look too far for the recent sacrifices either!
To compare their sacrifice to a lone troll on here is crap, and PERSONALLY I find that in bad taste. I have great respect for our modern enemies (the real ones that is). I have no time for any pisss-pot shyte distrubers, no matter what their claims are on this site.
Regards,
Wes
Before you go barking at us, read ALL of his posts. Although some have kinda some of merrit, look at the action he takes when he is backed into a corner. Many here have a different view than myself, and I repect that, but this guy went too far.
So, don't go throwing your TI back and saying SHAME, and go on about sacrifice of others, while comparing what has been said on here to Tamouh. We all know that price of our freedoms many take for granted was paid for with the blood of over 100,000 Canadians in the 20th century alone, and the price is still being paid right now. We all have our fare share of relatives who fought from Passchendaele Vimy, Ortona, Dieppe, D-Day and the rest through to Kapyong and beyond, including mine, some who never made it back, and we don't have to look too far for the recent sacrifices either!
To compare their sacrifice to a lone troll on here is crap, and PERSONALLY I find that in bad taste. I have great respect for our modern enemies (the real ones that is). I have no time for any pisss-pot shyte distrubers, no matter what their claims are on this site.
Regards,
Wes
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jollyjacktar said:
I guess having an avatar that looks like the Craker Jack guy makes one a little stuffy. Relax, Tex. If we all didn't support the right to express views, we wouldn't be on a DISCUSSION FORUM. However, when someone starts making noises that are sympathetic to the enemy, you can't possible expect that they aren't going to take some heat. Tamouh is a big boy (?) and can hold his own in a conversation. He doesn't need you to come to his defence. I also concur with reading some of his other posts and though lines, and his deliberate avoidance to answer questions put straight to him. You just got here. Take a bit of time and figure out the players and how things work. You're bashing up against the wrong team.
J
jollyjacktar
Guest
ArmyRick, yeah you got me. Typing fast with poor math skills. 133 years.
Zipper, Wes et al. I fully expected to feel the heat for opening my gate. And if I get a well deserved shit kicking, well... then I had it coming. Yes, I suppose in the grand scale of things I am a very new FNG. As in real life, at times my mouth (and in this case fingers) can indeed start working before my brain can successfully engage to ensure a rational statement. And if I am in the wrong, as happens many times, such is life, I pay the cost. This is just a little more public than usual.
It seems I misjudged the general direction of feeling from some quarters towards posting. What struck me as wrong, was my impression/interpretation that there should be only one train of thought allowed, period. If you were to dissent, well doom on you and the swarming could then proceed and forget about having the moderators/directing staff censure. I guess I still have some leftovers from my previous line of work in LE, and don't like to see anyone getting a shit kicking from a group. Even if they deserve it. I am glad to see there is support on the concept of expression of views, from both sides. As it appears I got the wrong end of the stick and mob rule does not apply, I do most humbly apologise to all here.
Lastly, Wes. My TI. Would not have mentioned it, but to some on these panels it does seem to be an important feature of cred. Shan't mention it again.
Zipper, Wes et al. I fully expected to feel the heat for opening my gate. And if I get a well deserved shit kicking, well... then I had it coming. Yes, I suppose in the grand scale of things I am a very new FNG. As in real life, at times my mouth (and in this case fingers) can indeed start working before my brain can successfully engage to ensure a rational statement. And if I am in the wrong, as happens many times, such is life, I pay the cost. This is just a little more public than usual.
It seems I misjudged the general direction of feeling from some quarters towards posting. What struck me as wrong, was my impression/interpretation that there should be only one train of thought allowed, period. If you were to dissent, well doom on you and the swarming could then proceed and forget about having the moderators/directing staff censure. I guess I still have some leftovers from my previous line of work in LE, and don't like to see anyone getting a shit kicking from a group. Even if they deserve it. I am glad to see there is support on the concept of expression of views, from both sides. As it appears I got the wrong end of the stick and mob rule does not apply, I do most humbly apologise to all here.
Lastly, Wes. My TI. Would not have mentioned it, but to some on these panels it does seem to be an important feature of cred. Shan't mention it again.
ArmyRick
Army.ca Veteran
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When discussing political issues age, life expiriences, etc, etc are all important if we are taking people's comments seriously.
If you had asked me at age 16 why then Prime Minister Brian Mulroney was bad, why the GST and free trade were not good I would have replied because everybody I know at school and my parents don't like him. I din't follow politics. At age 18 we think differently than say age 30, 40, etc, etc.
Now in my 30s after numerous years in the CF, owning a house, etc, etc I pay very close attention to politics now. Politics affects us all. In the military we see the direct results of poor or good federal leadership.
If you had asked me at age 16 why then Prime Minister Brian Mulroney was bad, why the GST and free trade were not good I would have replied because everybody I know at school and my parents don't like him. I din't follow politics. At age 18 we think differently than say age 30, 40, etc, etc.
Now in my 30s after numerous years in the CF, owning a house, etc, etc I pay very close attention to politics now. Politics affects us all. In the military we see the direct results of poor or good federal leadership.
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Jollyjack - tamouh still has'nt answered why he thinks Hezbollah should be allowed to store weapons in a mosque - but the Israelis should not be allowed to bomb it.
Like many supporters of despotic middle eastern kingdoms and savage dictatorships, it is hard to tell where the rhetoric ends and the argument begins, and tamouh is no exception.
Like many supporters of despotic middle eastern kingdoms and savage dictatorships, it is hard to tell where the rhetoric ends and the argument begins, and tamouh is no exception.
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I'm going to jump in with my 2c here in regard to the Mosque being bombed.
Just to be above board about this, I'm a Muslim.
If there are weapons being stored at a Mosque, it has (IMO) lost the protection as a house of worship, but with a few points.
Just be prepared for the fallout, most Muslims (myself included) will get p*ssed about this. It's an emotional reaction, not a logical one.
1. Is the intelligence strong, is it a wild a** guess, or is it a bomb it and let see what we find. I think there should be a strong level of proof for this.
2. When are you going to bomb it? At night is probably better, fewer people killed. You want to increase insurgent/terrorist ranks, bomb it during prayers.
3. This does not mean that all Mosques are now open game.
Just my opinion.
Just to be above board about this, I'm a Muslim.
If there are weapons being stored at a Mosque, it has (IMO) lost the protection as a house of worship, but with a few points.
Just be prepared for the fallout, most Muslims (myself included) will get p*ssed about this. It's an emotional reaction, not a logical one.
1. Is the intelligence strong, is it a wild a** guess, or is it a bomb it and let see what we find. I think there should be a strong level of proof for this.
2. When are you going to bomb it? At night is probably better, fewer people killed. You want to increase insurgent/terrorist ranks, bomb it during prayers.
3. This does not mean that all Mosques are now open game.
Just my opinion.
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Rey said:
Of course not Rey. War is war, and sometimes our enemies do extreme things to keep their weapons and ammo 'safe' . Over the years this has included the use of not only mosques or churches, but schools, hospitals and even museums as magazines and armouries, and even ambulances, TV marked vehicles and any other ruse they can find. Sadly its the innocent who always seem to pay. Thats the insanity of it all.
Instead of getting pisssed off at the good guys who bombed your mosque, why not get pisssed off at the bad guys who took advantage of your mosque and have a go at them.
Welcome to the website and I hope you enjoy yourself on here.
Regards,
Wes
C
couchcommander
Guest
I am always amazed at the ability of both sides to point fingers, become enraged at acts "beyond the pale", play innocent victim, and, for the most part, completely and utterly ignore anything that doesn't conform to their view.
The mass "death to Israel" demonstrations, cheering when westerners or jews get killed, active, widespread support for terrorist organizations, not to mention promoting them to government, while at the same time calling for war crimes investigations when a shell goes astray, justifying horrible acts because a family was living in a house whos basement was full of rockets, etc. etc. causes me to care less and less for the well being of certain societies.
At the same time, Israel has been known to stir the pot, and they are not above taking an opportunity if it presents itself, even during a cease fire.
IMO until BOTH sides have determined they have had enough, and actively choose to live together in peace, nothing will improve. As it's been said before, it almost has to get worse before it will get better.
I have to say though, I think the Israelis had been at that point for quite a while. They unilateraly disengaged, pulled out, and washed their hands of the mess. It could have been over then, Palestine could have been it's own state, Lebanon was free, it was really the best possible situation that could be resonably hoped for.
The arab societies, however, haven't seemed to collectivly grasp the consequence of their actions yet. Goaded by other powers, it seems, they ruined what could have been their best chance.
They pushed Israeli society to the point where again they have collectively came to view the resort to arms as an acceptable state of affairs.
Who knows when they will again return to a point where they are ready to deal. IMO, and I hate to say this, but this was brought on by their own actions.
Until arab society determines that the restort to terrorist actions in pursuit of unrealistic aims is a deviant action, contrary to the values of their society, and detremental to their well being, this will never end.
.02 anywho
The mass "death to Israel" demonstrations, cheering when westerners or jews get killed, active, widespread support for terrorist organizations, not to mention promoting them to government, while at the same time calling for war crimes investigations when a shell goes astray, justifying horrible acts because a family was living in a house whos basement was full of rockets, etc. etc. causes me to care less and less for the well being of certain societies.
At the same time, Israel has been known to stir the pot, and they are not above taking an opportunity if it presents itself, even during a cease fire.
IMO until BOTH sides have determined they have had enough, and actively choose to live together in peace, nothing will improve. As it's been said before, it almost has to get worse before it will get better.
I have to say though, I think the Israelis had been at that point for quite a while. They unilateraly disengaged, pulled out, and washed their hands of the mess. It could have been over then, Palestine could have been it's own state, Lebanon was free, it was really the best possible situation that could be resonably hoped for.
The arab societies, however, haven't seemed to collectivly grasp the consequence of their actions yet. Goaded by other powers, it seems, they ruined what could have been their best chance.
They pushed Israeli society to the point where again they have collectively came to view the resort to arms as an acceptable state of affairs.
Who knows when they will again return to a point where they are ready to deal. IMO, and I hate to say this, but this was brought on by their own actions.
Until arab society determines that the restort to terrorist actions in pursuit of unrealistic aims is a deviant action, contrary to the values of their society, and detremental to their well being, this will never end.
.02 anywho
C
couchcommander
Guest
Kirkhill said:
Well I know there's ONE side.... :dontpanic:
re: the actual topic.. it's more than just making people not hate you. Arab society will actually have change and label involvement in terrorist organizations as contrary to their values, and apply normative pressure to those who are involved in it.
Once people start being ostracized, and "martyr" starts to be means of societal advancement only in marginal deviant subcultures, then we will see change.
IMO, and the pont of my rant, was that I don't think this will happen until the Arabs are collectively tired of being blown up, forced into refugee camps, and generally having little control over fundamental aspects of their lives - and then, most importantly, put pressure on those who perpetuate their state of affairs.
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couchcommander said:
The biggest challenge will be simply convincing them that the ones who bear the most responsibility for their miserable lot in life are the elites who control their countries - not Jews, Americans or anyone else.
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
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Rey said:
Well having been press ganged into being a Muslim (married a Malay) I have had a chance to study Islam a bit from the inside. I find it interesting how quickly Muslims degenerate other Muslim not of the same sect and excuse hundreds of mosque bombings by other Muslims by claiming they are not “real Muslims”
Most of the Muslims I met oversea are decent people, but to quick to take offence. I have often said the problem with Islam like Christianity before, is that it has one foot in the physical world and one in the spiritual. It is time for Islam to let go of Shaira law and allow people to be spiritual on a personal level and not because they will be punished for stepping out of line.
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Rey said:
Yes indeed there should be anger and fallout as you have described. But you never seem to vent it towards those who have set the stage, who at every opportunity orchestrate death and distruction of Innocent Men, Women and Children.
If your outrage is such, why don't you tear them out of their hiding places and drive them off as you would any rabid mad animal.
Bear in-mind, that no Military Commander takes any glee or pleasure in directing fire on a house of Worship , Hospital or Sanctuary. And if such action is necessary, the Intel is weighed very heavily. Even you must admit that the Terrorists of the Region are infamously noted for using these structures for military purposes and shields.
C
couchcommander
Guest
GO!!! said:
My hippy self hates to say it, but I am almost in agreement with the phrase "Give war a chance". so +1
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couchcommander said:
:rofl:
Somewhere a Beatle is spinning in his grave.
"Alllll we are sayyyying, is give war a chaaaaaaance"
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Hi All,
I'm going to address a few points that I read through this thread. I'm working from memory, so please forgive any inaccuracies.
In regard to the post about people saying that Hezbollah being their protector.
I believe that statements shouldn't be taken in a vacum. In that regard I want to throw out a couple of things.
1. Hezbollah has a very strong community assistance aspect, they supply services that are not otherwise available in certain areas.
2. Sabra and Shatila are probably still strong in their minds. From my experience, people from the mid and far east have a long memory.
Destroying infrastructure.
A case could be made for destroying bridges, roads and some buildings in southern Lebanon.
But I've heard reports of bombs falling in norther Lebanon (anecdotal, on radio). I've also read a couple of articles that mentioned attacks on hospitals in Beirut, a pharmaceutical factory (I believe), a papermill (Toilet paper?), Lebanese military barracks (Interesting, esp as the Israeli govt holds the position that they want the Lebanese Army to secure the southern border).
This morning was the news on the UN observation post getting hit - 3 dead 1 missing or 4 dead, also a report of 2 ambulances evacuating injured civilians from Tyre getting shot up - no one killed.
As a civilian, I really cannot see any military necessity to attack these targets
There were some comments along the line of "you elected them, its your fault".
You can't say have a democracy, but you can only have a party that we like. Like it or not, like the IRA, Hamas, Hezbollah and P.L.O. have both a terrorist/paramilitary and a political wing.
Thanks for the welcome, I look forward to the discussions
Stuff in response to my post
Me getting p*ssed about Mosques getting hit.
As I said, it's an emotional response. After I calm down and think about it, I do get p*ssed about insurgent/terrorist using a Mosque as a base for their actions. But I'm never happy with either side in such a situation.
Getting mad at the right people. (comment by FastEddy)
The description that you made (IMO) describes both sides of the conflict. Both sides should take their leaders to task for their actions. Until there is pressure on the people in power, nothing will change.
After I get used to the interface, I'll start quoting like normal people. Thanks for your patience.
I'm going to address a few points that I read through this thread. I'm working from memory, so please forgive any inaccuracies.
In regard to the post about people saying that Hezbollah being their protector.
I believe that statements shouldn't be taken in a vacum. In that regard I want to throw out a couple of things.
1. Hezbollah has a very strong community assistance aspect, they supply services that are not otherwise available in certain areas.
2. Sabra and Shatila are probably still strong in their minds. From my experience, people from the mid and far east have a long memory.
Destroying infrastructure.
A case could be made for destroying bridges, roads and some buildings in southern Lebanon.
But I've heard reports of bombs falling in norther Lebanon (anecdotal, on radio). I've also read a couple of articles that mentioned attacks on hospitals in Beirut, a pharmaceutical factory (I believe), a papermill (Toilet paper?), Lebanese military barracks (Interesting, esp as the Israeli govt holds the position that they want the Lebanese Army to secure the southern border).
This morning was the news on the UN observation post getting hit - 3 dead 1 missing or 4 dead, also a report of 2 ambulances evacuating injured civilians from Tyre getting shot up - no one killed.
As a civilian, I really cannot see any military necessity to attack these targets
There were some comments along the line of "you elected them, its your fault".
You can't say have a democracy, but you can only have a party that we like. Like it or not, like the IRA, Hamas, Hezbollah and P.L.O. have both a terrorist/paramilitary and a political wing.
Thanks for the welcome, I look forward to the discussions
Stuff in response to my post
Me getting p*ssed about Mosques getting hit.
As I said, it's an emotional response. After I calm down and think about it, I do get p*ssed about insurgent/terrorist using a Mosque as a base for their actions. But I'm never happy with either side in such a situation.
Getting mad at the right people. (comment by FastEddy)
The description that you made (IMO) describes both sides of the conflict. Both sides should take their leaders to task for their actions. Until there is pressure on the people in power, nothing will change.
After I get used to the interface, I'll start quoting like normal people. Thanks for your patience.
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