Entire police department in Minnesota city resigns

[brihard]

Brihard, I was not referring to the specifics.

I was wondering why you choose to inflame a discussion by the use of casual pejoratives like Podunk. It is throwaways like that that convince supporters of Donald Trump that they are not wrong when they perceive an elitist attitude.

That town may be rife in nepotism. They may all be Episcopalians and married to their first cousins within the church. But slanging the locals straight off the top doesn't seem likely to be the best way of arguing your case. At least it is not a course of action that has worked for me.

Oh, ok, sorry- your objection wasn’t clear; it is now. That was unthinking on my part, I wasn’t intending to be pejorative or to slag or offend people living in smaller communities. It didn’t even cross my mind that I might. Thanks for making me realize that, I won’t use that phrasing again, and please accept my apology.

 

[Kirkhill]

Oh, ok, sorry- your objection wasn’t clear; it is now. That was unthinking on my part, I wasn’t intending to be pejorative or to slag or offend people living in smaller communities. It didn’t even cross my mind that I might. Thanks for making me realize that, I won’t use that phrasing again, and please accept my apology.

No apologies necessary. You argue well. I just don't like to see good discussions needlessly go off track.

Cheers.

 

[brihard]

No apologies necessary. You argue well. I just don't like to see good discussions needlessly go off track.

Cheers.

Totally fair. Now I know better and will do better on this one.

 

[Infanteer]

Would Buttf***nowhere have been a better description?

 

[Kirkhill]

Would Buttf***nowhere have been a better description?

See my last...

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Who needs Police when you've got Jason Aldean and the 2nd Amendment!

Needless to say, Goodhue is going to need a name change to Badhue

 

[Halifax Tar]

Who needs Police when you've got Jason Aldean and the 2nd Amendment!

Needless to say, Goodhue is going to need a name change to Badhue

I still haven't listened to that song... Don't suppose I will either.

 

[lenaitch]

As a bunch of retired cops on motorcycle trips, it was not uncommon for us to chat up local law enforcement, swap shoulder patches, etc. and we quickly learned not to talk about pay or benefits. I recall one small department (like 1 1/2 members) with an entire budget less than one OPP member's salary. It almost seems that, for really small communities, local law enforcement is treated almost like security, with more serious matters (which actually my be fairly rare) dependent on either the county or state level. The rarity of major crime in some of these small places gives them a local service with their name on the door for little cost.

They also rely heavily on part-time and reserve members. Part-timers are really rare in Ontario and reserve (not to be confused with auxiliary) simply doesn't exist, in Ontario anyway.

Somebody once tried to explain to me why things like amalgamations, metropolitan mergers or even contracting, which are quite common here (well, except lower mainland and island BC it seems) are very rare down there. It had something to do with state constitutions but I didn't really get it and no longer recall.

 

[Furniture]

I still haven't listened to that song... Don't suppose I will either.

It's not bad if you're into country, if you're not...

The general idea is that in a small town people know and look out for each other. As an example, a local idiot tried to rob a bank with a knife a few years ago in my hometown. The bank teller recognized the guys voice, addressed him by name, and told him to go home...

 

[Halifax Tar]

It's not bad if you're into country, if you're not...

The general idea is that in a small town people know and look out for each other. As an example, a local idiot tried to rob a bank with a knife a few years ago in my hometown. The bank teller recognized the guys voice, addressed him by name, and told him to go home...

I'm very much into country. Just not pop country.

 

[CBH99]

I can’t say specifically why it’s the case, but there are so many horror stories of these tiny munipal services having major issues. Money and independence seem to be two common factors. Policing is expensive; when municipalities that really can’t afford it nonetheless insist on their own services, you end up with departments staffed with very poorly paid officers (which speaks to both quality and, sometimes corruption), and who can’t afford to properly equip them or train them. Officers who are hurt often have inadequate disability insurance coverage for short or long term. This is also where departments have to ‘self fund’ and you see very sketchy and exploitive use of traffic tickets with arrest/bail powers, as well as civil forfeitures that lack much due process.

On the independence side, you end up with departments that are often prevented implicitly or explicitly from investigating local corruption, from law enforcement when certain businesses or families are concerned who are connected in town, or where the local police may themselves be corrupted. Local police can be used as weapons against municipal political rivals or in pursuing private feuds. The section of local police chiefs can be blatantly nepotistic in order to serve any of the above ends.

This is by no means to say that larger services don’t also have some similar problems, but ‘micro’ forces seem to be prone to lots of really terrible issues.

I would argue there are no apologies necessary for this post above because it isn't insulting to small towns. Bri is speaking facts here, and acknowledges that some of these issues may present themselves with bigger agencies as well - but seem to be more prevalent with extremely small agencies serving small towns - for predictable reasons.

Ofcourse not every small town or small agency is affected by nepotism or subject to local political interference. But it isn't super uncommon either.



if major crime is rare, or any crime requiring a law enforcement response is rare for that matter, it doesn't make sense for that small agency (sometimes consisting of 1 dude and a handful of part time support staff) to spend a ton of money sending that officer away for advanced training courses.

Having knowledge of the local penal codes, and being able to detain/arrest/release individuals in a way the courts will recognize, and basic qualifications on equipment is probably enough.

But the low pay that comes with a bare minimum service, combined with local politics (including some families better connected than others) does create a genuine opportunity for a toxic workplace, and pressure to target some individuals over others.



It's the nature of the beast, or at least has the real potential to be.

Bri isn't wrong in that at all.

 

[brihard]

I would argue there are no apologies necessary for this post above because it isn't insulting to small towns. Bri is speaking facts here, and acknowledges that some of these issues may present themselves with bigger agencies as well - but seem to be more prevalent with extremely small agencies serving small towns - for predictable reasons.

Ofcourse not every small town or small agency is affected by nepotism or subject to local political interference. But it isn't super uncommon either.



if major crime is rare, or any crime requiring a law enforcement response is rare for that matter, it doesn't make sense for that small agency (sometimes consisting of 1 dude and a handful of part time support staff) to spend a ton of money sending that officer away for advanced training courses.

Having knowledge of the local penal codes, and being able to detain/arrest/release individuals in a way the courts will recognize, and basic qualifications on equipment is probably enough.

But the low pay that comes with a bare minimum service, combined with local politics (including some families better connected than others) does create a genuine opportunity for a toxic workplace, and pressure to target some individuals over others.



It's the nature of the beast, or at least has the real potential to be.

Bri isn't wrong in that at all.

No, I think his only exception was to my specific use of ‘podunk’. I didn’t intend it as a slur against small communities but I guess some take it that way. Once I think about it, I can understand that.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I would argue there are no apologies necessary for this post above because it isn't insulting to small towns. Bri is speaking facts here, and acknowledges that some of these issues may present themselves with bigger agencies as well - but seem to be more prevalent with extremely small agencies serving small towns - for predictable reasons.

Ofcourse not every small town or small agency is affected by nepotism or subject to local political interference. But it isn't super uncommon either.



if major crime is rare, or any crime requiring a law enforcement response is rare for that matter, it doesn't make sense for that small agency (sometimes consisting of 1 dude and a handful of part time support staff) to spend a ton of money sending that officer away for advanced training courses.

Having knowledge of the local penal codes, and being able to detain/arrest/release individuals in a way the courts will recognize, and basic qualifications on equipment is probably enough.

But the low pay that comes with a bare minimum service, combined with local politics (including some families better connected than others) does create a genuine opportunity for a toxic workplace, and pressure to target some individuals over others.



It's the nature of the beast, or at least has the real potential to be.

Bri isn't wrong in that at all.

Uvalde, Texas, enters the chat, although it seems money wasn't a big issue:

The city of Uvalde spent 40% of its municipal budget on its police department in the 2019–2020 fiscal year,[15][34] and UCISD, the school district operating Robb Elementary School, had multiple security measures in place at the time of the shooting.[35][36] The Uvalde Consolidated Independent School District Police Department (UCISD PD) had a six-officer police department responsible for security at the district's eight schools.[37] It had also more than doubled its expenditures on security measures in the four years preceding the shooting, and in 2021, it expanded its police force from four officers to six officers.[16] The state of Texas had given UCISD a $69,141 grant to improve security measures as part of a $100 million statewide allocation made after the 2018 Santa Fe High School shooting, in which ten people were slain.[16] The district also had a security staff that patrolled door entrances and parking lots at secondary school campuses.[36] Since 2020, Pedro "Pete" Arredondo had served as UCISD's police chief.[35][36][37]

Robb Elementary School shooting - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Blackadder1916]

No, I think his only exception was to my specific use of ‘podunk’. I didn’t intend it as a slur against small communities but I guess some take it that way. Once I think about it, I can understand that.

Not everyone takes it that way.

Podunk Bluegrass Festival in August at the Goshen Fair Grounds in Goshen, CT

Each 2nd weekend in August, leading local, regional and national bluegrass acts perform on 3 stages at the Goshen Fairgrounds. Gates open at noon on Wednesday for early bird campers. Music from Thu-Sun. Camp on site or come for the day. There's plenty to do for the whole family. Crafts and...

podunkbluegrass.com

 

[RangerRay]

I would argue there are no apologies necessary for this post above because it isn't insulting to small towns. Bri is speaking facts here, and acknowledges that some of these issues may present themselves with bigger agencies as well - but seem to be more prevalent with extremely small agencies serving small towns - for predictable reasons.

Ofcourse not every small town or small agency is affected by nepotism or subject to local political interference. But it isn't super uncommon either.



if major crime is rare, or any crime requiring a law enforcement response is rare for that matter, it doesn't make sense for that small agency (sometimes consisting of 1 dude and a handful of part time support staff) to spend a ton of money sending that officer away for advanced training courses.

Having knowledge of the local penal codes, and being able to detain/arrest/release individuals in a way the courts will recognize, and basic qualifications on equipment is probably enough.

But the low pay that comes with a bare minimum service, combined with local politics (including some families better connected than others) does create a genuine opportunity for a toxic workplace, and pressure to target some individuals over others.



It's the nature of the beast, or at least has the real potential to be.

Bri isn't wrong in that at all.

Yes, corruption, self-dealing and bribery is more common in small towns, especially those without an independent press to report on it.

 

[Remius]

Not everyone takes it that way.

Podunk Bluegrass Festival in August at the Goshen Fair Grounds in Goshen, CT

Each 2nd weekend in August, leading local, regional and national bluegrass acts perform on 3 stages at the Goshen Fairgrounds. Gates open at noon on Wednesday for early bird campers. Music from Thu-Sun. Camp on site or come for the day. There's plenty to do for the whole family. Crafts and...

podunkbluegrass.com

I never even heard the term before. I also can find no reference to it being pejorative.

Definition of PODUNK

a small, unimportant, and isolated town… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

 

[RangerRay]

No, I think his only exception was to my specific use of ‘podunk’. I didn’t intend it as a slur against small communities but I guess some take it that way. Once I think about it, I can understand that.

I didn’t take offence to it. I used a more offensive slur. My friends and I used to refer to our hometown as the armpit of Canada!

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

Keep in mind 22$ a hour in the middle of nowhere often goes a lot farther than 32$ a hour in a metropolis. It isn’t a straight apples to apples comparison.

also keep in mind the price of a new car, or truck, credit card debt, or the price of gas is very similar in a big city as it is in a smaller city. Yes house prices might be different, food prices are close to the same.

I lived in a small city in Iowa, prices for gas, food were the same. House pricing was around the same in the next couple towns over. Only thing that was cheaper was wait I never found it. We had to travel to grocery shop, nearest mall was 90 minutes away. Other than Walmart ( 20 miles away) we had no stores, had to travel, so any savings were eaten up by travel costs.

But the dislike, distrust of police is the same every where. Very low paying job for the level of work required

 

[Furniture]

I never even heard the term before. I also can find no reference to it being pejorative.

Definition of PODUNK

a small, unimportant, and isolated town… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

If you can't imagine why referring to a town as "unimportant" might be seen as a pejorative, I can't help you

 

[GK .Dundas]

It's interesting that we have no problems demanding that Police Officers require massive upgrades to their education and training in recent years .
But for some odd reason we don't want to pay for that in way of wages.
Strangely enough daycare workers have the same problem .