F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF)

[aesop081]

The 21 A variants - the first in the LRIP 5 batch - will cost approx. $26M a copy

+ $10-13 Million for the engine.

 

[WingsofFury]

Not sure yet, there's some terminology in the release that I don't understand, aid me?

provides for associated ancillary mission equipment

 

[aesop081]

Not sure yet,

The engines are not included as they are GFE - Government Furnished equipment.

there's some terminology in the release that I don't understand, aid me?

Sounds like smaller mission subsystems required for the flight test program.

 

[WingsofFury]

The engines are not included as they are GFE - Government Furnished equipment.

Sounds like smaller mission subsystems required for the flight test program.

Thanks on both counts.

Looks like they'll be producing less than one complete platform a month with greater software and mission subsystems which would explain the higher cost.

 

[WingsofFury]

F-35A Goes to Mach 1.6 and 9.9G's

I guess Mr. Sweetman must be concerned....hehe

While the speed and g loading are great news, this was my favourite part of the article:

Griffiths has also been in the driving seat, literally, for the start of full-up mission system testing in the F-35A. Initial sensor fusion between the EW systems and radar “went pretty well,” says Griffiths. “We have had the DAS (distributed aperture system) running on the aircraft for the first time, providing 360 deg. coverage. You can see right through the aircraft which is wild,” he comments. The DAS is an internally mounted, multi-functional sensor for air-to-air and air-to-surface targeting capability. “It’s pretty cool and sort of feels like Wonder Woman’s invisible jet. The DAS is working well and enables you to pick up things you wouldn’t normally be able to see because the system’s apertures work at different wavelengths to the human eyeball. It can see details that with your eyes you cannot see, for example on overwater flights looking along the coastline you can pick out details of buildings much more clearly,” he adds.

 

[aesop081]

DAS is probably the most promising part of the entire F-35 program. If the F-35 were to come to an end, DAS would continue in other in-service platforms.

 

[HeavyHooker]

So if the Americans are starting to cut their #'s because of cost over-runs ($136-140M/copy with engines), I wonder if we may do the same.

Looks like one of two options: - cut numbers of copies or bump up the budget (political suicide over a jet very few John Q Public want in the first place).

HH

 

[Kirkhill]

So if the Americans are starting to cut their #'s because of cost over-runs ($136-140M/copy with engines), I wonder if we may do the same.

Looks like one of two options: - cut numbers of copies or bump up the budget (political suicide over a jet very few John Q Public want in the first place).

HH

Or by fewer now and more later - once the budget allows, after other defence priorities (like CSCs and AORs and MPAs) have been addressed, and the public only has to swallow another 4 aircraft a time at 500 MCAD a set. 

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Or by fewer now and more later - once the budget allows, after other defence priorities (like CSCs and AORs and MPAs) have been addressed, and the public only has to swallow another 4 aircraft a time at 500 MCAD a set.

Although I have not seen anything official on an MPA replacement project as of yet. So I am wondering if its even in the cards for the next decade or so.

 

[a_majoor]

If iPods were hand built at a rate of one a month, they would cost millions of dollars a pop as well.

Maybe the solution is to do the recreate the "Willow Run" factory and start churning these things out on a production line basis, and use economy of scale to drive down costs. All the "extra" F-35's could be marketed to friendly nations like India, or held in reserve as war stores and replacement aircraft for the inevitable accidents and out of service aircraft of the various air forces.

This will also provide some momentum, as consortium nations like Canada, the UK and so on see the numbers of planes for sale rising and the costs falling, they may be inclined to bulk up their fleets as well.

 

[hauger]

Interesting Read:

Trillion-Dollar Jet Has Thirteen Expensive New Flaws
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/12/joint-strike-fighter-13-flaws/

 

[Haletown]

Oh my gawd . . .  "flaws" in a new aircraft.  Never happened before, ever in the history of aviation development. 

Guess the Japanese are dumb, because they just bought into the F-35 program.

"Japan has chosen the Lockheed Martin F-35 in the F-X competition, Japanese newspapers report, citing government sources. A decision will be formally made on Friday, Dec. 16."

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/awx/2011/12/13/awx_12_13_2011_p0-405601.xml&headline=Tokyo%20Chooses%20F-35,%20Local%20Media%20Report%20&channel=defense

Can't wait for our intrepid media to calculate how much  this additional production of F-35 aircraft will lower their cost, because they are very fats of the mark to constantly bleat about how much more the F-35 will cost if the production run is lowered.

 

[hauger]

Haletown: I take it your an F-35 supporter?  Yes, new airplanes have problems.  The issue is not what these problems are, but what the fixes mean in terms of cost/time.  To use a car analogy, these problems aren't the type that get fixed at the dealership (on delivery) like a sunroof rattle, but inherent flaws in design that need engineers to rethink the various systems and tweak the designs.

In any event, Japan has delayed the decision to purchase that you quoted (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/14/us-japan-fighter-idUSTRE7BD1I220111214)

 

[a_majoor]

I think the real issue is everyone has been painted into a corner.

There are no other "Generation 5" aircraft on the market, and very few companies that could even attempt to make them. If we go to the Super Hornet we are accepting a design that dates back to the 1970's, and even the Eurofighter Typhoon or SAAB Gripen comes from the 1980's, which means that by the expected retirement date of 2030 these planes will be 50 to 60 year old designs.

Even "Banana Republics" got rid of their P-51 Mustangs in the 1960's or early 1970's; at some point there is only so much that can be done with upgrades (and there were proposals for turboprop conversions of Mustangs that could carry 20mm cannon and missiles on underwing hard mounts...).

 

[Swingline1984]

Some vague wording by the PM has this blogger reading between the lines (or grasping at straws; you be the judge):

http://blogs.canada.com/2011/12/14/did-harper-leave-himself-some-room-to-manoeuvre-on-the-f-35/

 

[Haletown]

Haletown: I take it your an F-35 supporter?  Yes, new airplanes have problems.  The issue is not what these problems are, but what the fixes mean in terms of cost/time.  To use a car analogy, these problems aren't the type that get fixed at the dealership (on delivery) like a sunroof rattle, but inherent flaws in design that need engineers to rethink the various systems and tweak the designs.

In any event, Japan has delayed the decision to purchase that you quoted (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/14/us-japan-fighter-idUSTRE7BD1I220111214)

A  supporter in the sense there is no other single aircraft available that comes close to its capabilities and I  support it because I believe we can afford and should procure top level, modern equipment for our Forces.  Buying aircraft that are approaching obsolescence just because they are available now is a fools game.

Don't get me wrong, the F-35 program is in complexity class that is unique and the program has some serious engineering issues.  I'm not doing a pollyanna thing here, but I have a reasonable degree of faith in LM's engineering staff being able to resolve the issues.

I couldn't agree more that the F-35 program has engineering issues, some no doubt quite challenging.  That is the norm in the aviation world and yet every issue on the F-35 is presented as a program ending flaw.  Every review and report is cherry picked for the Killer Quote that can be taken out of context and used to hyperventilate a negative column or three.

And yes, I concur that that the Japanese have "delayed" the announcement of their F-35 purchase . . .  delayed until next week according to the article you linked to.  A delay that I can live with as it gives our media more time to digest the impact a now larger production run will have on reducing the price of the F-35.  I am sure they will report this, just like the endlessly report that the F-35 will cost more if the USA doesn't buy as many and the total production run was to be reduced.

There are much bigger political games being played out by the powers that be and the  generation and leaking of reports is all part and parcel of the Grand Game in the US Congress and the DOD budget in-fighting.  Competing political, institutional  and business interests play hardball and provide the media with a never ending series of gotcha stories.

 

[Haletown]

Matthew Fisher gets it . . . . 


http://www.canada.com/news/canada-in-afghanistan/Canada%2Blocked%2Bmatter%2Bcost%2Banalysis/5866021/story.html

not sure about his price comparison to the F-18 & Typhoon are accurate but the article is a breath of fresh air.

 

[aesop081]

Matthew Fisher gets it . . . . 


http://www.canada.com/news/canada-in-afghanistan/Canada%2Blocked%2Bmatter%2Bcost%2Banalysis/5866021/story.html

not sure about his price comparison to the F-18 & Typhoon are accurate but the article is a breath of fresh air.

Not a bad article but, again, media standards for fact-checks are low:

C-17 Galaxy transports.

 

[Haletown]

Good summary of the recently leaked Concurrency Report.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/in-focus-f-35-concurrency-reaches-turning-point-366056/


"The panel concluded that the F-35 in fact faces no technical issue that would trigger a recommendation to halt all new production. Instead, it recommends that the DoD continue building production aircraft as flight-testing continues, albeit at a reduced level."

 

[NavyShooter]

I'm just wondering what would happen if Boeing put their XF-32 back in the game on their own....