F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF)

[WingsofFury]

Where will our Canadian F-35 pilots get their transitional (or whatever the AF calls it) training?

We have recently moved for the Winter season and are now a couple of miles from Luke AFB which is in the mix for the F-35 training mission. Luke does F-16 now.

It's been proposed that the original transitional training will take place involving an international training centre, already constructed at Eglin Air Force Base by manufacturer Lockheed Martin, as the main option under consideration.

Having said that, there has been no official decision made on the matter as yet.

 

[WingsofFury]

So more news on the JSF front. Italy has bought it's first 3 planes, but take a look at what they say about cost when compared to the Eurofighter which they currently have in service!

Italy buys its first three F-35s. With a shocking announcement: “a JSF will cost less than a Eurofighter Typhoon”

On Feb. 7, 2012, Gen. Claudio Debertolis, head of the agency that is responsible for the procurement of new armaments, has announced that Italy has already ordered the first three Lockheed Martin F-35s.

Unit price: 80 million USD.

Talking to the lower house’s defense commitee, Debertolis explained that these first planes will cost more than the rest of the fleet since costs are going to decrease as the program, currently in Low Rate Initial Production,  continues. The Italian high rank officer is particularly optimistic, as he believes that the unit price will be around 70 million each (Lockheed Martin estimates 65M USD for the F-35A and about 73M USD for the F-35B), less than the 79 million USD currently paid for the Eurofighter Typhoon and much less of the 121 million USD per aircraft anticipated in 2011.

Quite surprising, since unit price is one of the JSF partner’s main concern, but possible, considering also that the Typhoon has just lost India’s mother of all tenders based on price.

Although there’s no official commitment yet, the initial requirement for Italy foresaw 131 examples (69 conventional take-off and landing F-35As and 62 of the short take-off and vertical landing variant F-35Bs). Debertolis confirmed that determining how many aircraft Italy will purchase is not a current task, since it will depend on the Defense Budget Review. Nevertheless, even if the number of aircraft will be much lower than the initial 131, the MoD will work to make sure that the industry will get the expected compensation.

Italy is working on stretching deliveries and slowing purchase  “a much easier task than that with the Eurofighter program, since the F-35 procurement is modular therefore delays don’t imply increasing costs” Debertolis said.

Furthermore with the recent Eurofighter defeat in India, Italy is going to stop working on the Typhoon and “divert” part (if not all) of its workforce towards the F-35, being assembled at the Cameri FACO (Final Assembly and Check Out) facility.

Finally, Debertolis has confirmed that Italy will have both A and B variants, with the STOVL (Short Take Off Vertical Landing) ones serving both the Air Force and the Navy, that will use them on the Cavour aircraft carrier.

In spite of the widespread criticism surrounding the program and the global financial crisis it looks like the F-35 has, if not a bright future ahead, at least good chances to survive the austerity measures of the new Monti’s technocratic cabinet.

http://theaviationist.com/2012/02/08/f35-typhoon/

 

[MarkOttawa]

Even some Italians seem still to believe in the LockMart tooth fairy:
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=defense&id=news/awx/2012/02/06/awx_02_06_2012_p0-421701.xml&headline=Kendall:%20Early%20F-35%20Production%20a%20Mistake

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/sns-rt-us-lockheed-fightertre8151ic-20120206,0,3098488.story

http://www.courant.com/business/hc-armed-services-questions-f35-problems-20120207,0,6545530.story

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/sns-rt-us-lockheed-britain-f35tre8160zb-20120207,0,5389820.story

Mark
Ottawa

 

[WingsofFury]

Hey Mark, where's your article in defence of SAR and how the SAR process works which would show some defence of the SAR crew currently being barraged out in Newfoundland....?

Or are you just a policy wingnut, who has no real idea about how things work in the military?

Perhaps you'd like to analyse the following link and the myriad number of errors that occurr in it, thus showing how illogical one of the groups opposed to the F-35 purchase is...unless, of course, you agree with their position....

Joint strike fighter program a 'failure': think tank
DAVID ELLERY
08 Feb, 2012 11:40 AM

Some of the most vehement critics of Australia’s involvement in the Joint Strike Fighter program had their day in the sun on Tuesday afternoon when they testified before a high level parliamentary defence committee.
Representatives of anti-JSF think tank Air Power Australia and RepSim Pty Ltd were given an hour to make their case before the defence subcommittee of the Joint Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade.

By the time the group was 30 minutes into its presentation at least five of the committee members had left the room.

Remaining committee members, including Opposition defence spokesman Senator David Johnston, were told the JSF program was a failure, the planes only had limited stealth capability and that they were compromised by the use of a core design to produce three different variants; a conventional land based plane, a short take off and landing variant that will replace the US Marine Corps’ Harrier jets and a carrier version.

Air Power Australia wants the Australian Government to abandon the JSF and, instead, exert pressure on the US Government to scrap the program in favour of having Lockheed Martin re-open its F-22 Raptor production line and make that plane, arguably the world’s best air superiority fighter, available to the international partners.

``We’re building the wrong aircraft,’’ spokesman Peter Goon said.

Independent analysts say this is unlikely to ever happen – and that the F-22 was never released for foreign sales in any case.

Senior Defence officials, who have been aware of the Air Power Australia claims for some time and give them little credence, are not expected to take Tuesday’s presentation lying down. It is understood a formal response could be made to the committee around the middle of next month.

Mr Goon said the STOVL F-35B variant imposed weight and performance limits on the other two aircraft. ``It is the aerial equivalent of Herpes; it just keeps on giving.’’

He was equally disparaging about the Boeing Super Hornet, the plane favoured by Defence Minister, Stephen Smith, to stand in for the JSF if there are further delays in the stealth fighter program.

Judging from the number of questions, the remaining committee members found the segment of the presentation detailing computer simulations of a hypothetical 2018 air battle between either 240 F-35s, 240 F-22 Raptors or 240 Super Hornets and an equivalent number of Sukhoi SU35s off the coast of Taiwan the most interesting.

It was claimed only 30 F-35s would survive as against no survivors for the Super Hornet force and 139 survivors for the F-22 force.

Senator Johnston said the claims were interesting but stressed it was important the committee be provided with the assumptions on which the simulation was based so it could be assessed with some degree of accuracy.

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/national/national/general/joint-strike-fighter-program-a-failure-think-tank/2448416.aspx?storypage=1

 

[aesop081]

who has no real idea about how things work in the military?

Your military experience is what again ? You have a real idea how things work do you ?

I don't mind giving Mark a hard time, i do it regularly, but i don't think your own position is all that strong to say that to someone.

 

[WingsofFury]

Your military experience is what again ? You have a real idea how things work do you ?

I don't mind giving Mark a hard time, i do it regularly, but i don't think your own position is all that strong to say that to someone.

You're right, I have no military experience.

And it is because of that lack of experience and knowledge that I make a conserted effort at attempting to understand things.  Hence why every time I send a story to print it goes to the Wing and Squadrons involved to make sure that it is accurate and that the content is not breaking any form of OPSEC.

But I realise that my statement may have been out of line, so I apologise to Mark and to those who thought it may have been a cheap shot.

I'd still like to see his response to the article that I posted.

 

[aesop081]

I make a conserted effort at attempting to understand things. 

I have always known you to do exactly that. I was not implying that you were doing things any other way.

Anyways, as for the italian F-35, this is the part that says it all to me :

The Italian high rank officer is particularly optimistic, as he believes that the unit price will be around 70 million each

What is "beleived" is one thing.....what will happen is entirely another.

 

[WingsofFury]

I have always known you to do exactly that. I was not implying that you were doing things any other way.

I appreciate that, and I understand that you weren't implying that - it would appear I'm still making strides in distancing myself from the "average" journalist/reporter/lacky maybe? that regularly write about the military...not an easy thing to do.  Hopefully the Communications program I'll be starting this September will help.... :nod:

Anyways, as for the italian F-35, this is the part that says it all to me :

What is "beleived" is one thing.....what will happen is entirely another.

Would it be a safe assumption to believe that Italy, being a Level II partner in the program, may receive a lower per unit cost than other participants in the program?

And with regards to the piece outlined above, is it just me or are the folks at APA just out on a political mission to have the US reconsider its policy on F-22 sales?  Their hatred of everything non Raptor is pretty interesting to say the least.

 

[GAP]

Italy To Cut Back On F-35 Jet And Navy Frigate Orders - Report
Article Link

ROME -(Dow Jones)- Italy will scale back planned purchases of the F-35 joint strike fighter as well as frigates, Corriere della Sera reports Friday, without saying where it obtained the information.

In a detailed article, the Milan-based daily said Italy would reduce its planned EUR15 billion purchase of 131 F-35 fighter bombers, made by Lockheed Martin Corp. (LMT), to 100 or at most 110.

Defense Minister Giampaolo di Paola last month in a television interview defended the procurement program but said there might be some cuts as Italy slashes public spending to balance its budget by 2013. The U.K. Defense Ministry is postponing its final decision on how many F-35 planes to buy.

Italy'sFinmeccanica SpA (FNC.MI) has key roles in both the F-35 and the Eurofighter, a rival project that Corriere said may not proceed.
More on link

 

[aesop081]

Would it be a safe assumption to believe that Italy, being a Level II partner in the program, may receive a lower per unit cost than other participants in the program?

Despite the progress made in 2011, i don't think it is safe to assume anything at this point.

 

[WingsofFury]

Anyone have thoughts on what may come out of the meeting??

Lockheed, the Pentagon's No. 1 supplier, and U.S. officials who run the $382 billion weapons program are anxiously preparing for a meeting in Australia in mid-March where the partners -- Britain, Canada, Denmark, Norway, Italy, Australia, Turkey and Canada -- will outline their revamped procurement plans.

Canada has tentatively scheduled a meeting of the partners at its embassy in Washington before the Australian meeting to get an update on the program and better coordinate their approach.

Each U.S. restructuring has consequences for the partners, which have already chipped in hundreds of millions of dollars for development of the fighter, which was sold as an affordable way to replace a dozen older jets in use around the world.

"The situation is increasingly becoming a fiasco. People are pulling out, pulling back ... reassessing what they're going to do," Matthew Kellway, a legislator with Canada's opposition New Democratic Party, told Reuters on Friday.

He said the Pentagon had given Canada every reason to step back, by stepping back itself.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/U-S-F-35-production-slowdown-rb-4157286973.html?x=0

 

[Haletown]

"People are pulling out, pulling back ... reassessing what they're going to do,""

Right.  Tell that to the Japanese. 

The Ottawa Press Corps is trying to beat on He Who They Hate the Most with a continuous barrage of anti F-35 propaganda.  The usual talking heads on the daily political TV and radio shows routinely mock the government and the F-35 with ridiculous claims and distortions.


The NDP is going all anti F-35 because it suits their policies of gutting the CF.  They are linking the F-35 budget to the OAS story to scare seniors and leverage their fear mongering anti military party line.


While far from being a model acquisition program, the F-35 represents the future and satisfies the requirements of the RCAF and the moral obligations of Canadians to properly equip our Armed Forces with A+ level equipment

Stay the course,  If we can wait 25 years for a naval helicopter replacement, we can wait an extra year or 2/3 for the F-35 to complete its test program.

 

[HeavyHooker]

Haletown:

That seems like a lot of opinion in your post.  I am far from a supporter of the Ottawa Press Corps or definitely the NDP but you just didn't seem to add anything constructive to the conversation other than conjecture.  I really appreciate this thread since almost all of the posts are from recognized sources from both sides of this debate but opinions add nothing to the discussion.

HH

 

[Haletown]

Haletown:

That seems like a lot of opinion in your post.  I am far from a supporter of the Ottawa Press Corps or definitely the NDP but you just didn't seem to add anything constructive to the conversation other than conjecture.  I really appreciate this thread since almost all of the posts are from recognized sources from both sides of this debate but opinions add nothing to the discussion.

HH

Thank you for your opinion. 

 

[aesop081]

Not related to the F-35 but i am finding the Swiss decision to go with Grippen NG rather interesting. $3.2 billion for a 22 aircraft deal.

 

[Rifleman62]

Haletown:

The NDP is going all anti F-35 because it suits their policies of gutting the CF.  They are linking the F-35 budget to the OAS story to scare seniors and leverage their fear mongering anti military party line.

If you are not "Free" and are living under another countries jackboot/agenda/priorities, then who said you will receive OAS? You may just end up living in a "camp", or not living.

 

[WingsofFury]

Not related to the F-35 but i am finding the Swiss decision to go with Grippen NG rather interesting. $3.2 billion for a 22 aircraft deal.

Agreed, it was certainly a curious selection.

As was the the choice of India in selecting the Rafale over the Eurofighter.  But I guess what they say is true, cash is certainly king and the cheaper, more viable aircraft won out based on that alone.

I find that Japan's selection of the -35 was based on a sound competition, which, IMHO, would have resembled the one which could potentially occurr here in Canada should a competition ever be held.  Of course, the selection of the -35 by Japan only further shows that the Conservatives have selected the right a/c based on the criteria outlined and are saving the country the money which would go towards a competition anyways.

 

[aesop081]

As was the the choice of India in selecting the Rafale over the Eurofighter. 

Yeah, that one had me scratching my head too.

I find that Japan's selection of the -35 was based ........

More of a political decision methinks.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I have a feeling that the Swiss decision to buy Grippen NG has more to do with the small size of their country and the fact that they are using them to replace F-5s.  Maybe I missed something, but I did not get the sense they were looking for much more than a new bomb truck that could also some air to air in this project.

 

[aesop081]

I have a feeling that the Swiss decision to buy Grippen NG has more to do with the small size of their country and the fact that they are using them to replace F-5s. 

The article i read that news from stated that the decision had been made on cost grounds. The Saab bid was the lowest of the types evaluated.