Fighting in the Fulda Gap

[MCpl Wesite]

well I'm still waiting for my starship troopers jump suit so my sect doesn't get eaten up by whatever I'm engaging. The concept of a section attack sounds good in theory. However the rules are :

1. A section is never alone.
2. There is always supporting fire.
3. Rules always fail in times of war.

A mounted sect attack with LAVs and tank support ( combat team) is the best way to go. But sometime this isn't the case especially when a section/platoon is tasked to clear a woodline of possible en recce / layback patrols. A section attack / woods clearing (with a platoon) is the fastest and dirtest way to go especially if in a rear area. No matter how the rules or drills for a section attack are changed, if any, it will always come down to grit and detirmination of the section / group leaders to engage and destroy the enemy in close fighting 

 

[ArmyRick]

MCpl Westie, thank for your input BUT GET ON BOARD with the conversation, man! We are not talking about older doctrine and tactics that we have been brainwashed with for our whole careers.

This forum is aimed at newer tactics and YES sections in this modern day will fight by themselves. In A-stan, there is routinely sect sized patrols sent out and they end up some considerable distance from their base and platoon. We are talking about what to deal with on enemy encounters then. If there are only 4-6 of you, then it will be a sect - attack.

We also have to deal with co-lateral damage, RPG attacks by guys in civilian clothing, civilians spying on us with cell phones, etc, etc. Think 3 block war.

Tanks and combat teams are the best way to go? Sure if you have tanks. The CF is only holding onto tanks in the LdSH to develop MGS TTP. Once and if we get the MGS, then Tanks are gonzo. You can not fight with MGS the same way you could with tanks.

Your last line did make sense however.

 

[MCpl Wesite]

MCpl Westie, thank for your input BUT GET ON BOARD with the conversation, man! We are not talking about older doctrine and tactics that we have been brainwashed with for our whole careers.

I've never been to CFB Brainwashing center.

This forum is aimed at newer tactics and YES sections in this modern day will fight by themselves. In A-stan, there is routinely sect sized patrols sent out and they end up some considerable distance from their base and platoon. We are talking about what to deal with on enemy encounters then. If there are only 4-6 of you, then it will be a sect - attack.

Good then we are in agreement as troops in Afganistan do have C-6 mounted G Wagons, QRFs, and LAVs all at their disposal. Durring Battle Drill #3 you are supossed to report to your superiors to inform them of your plan, if they have assets for you such as the above they will send them.

We also have to deal with co-lateral damage, RPG attacks by guys in civilian clothing, civilians spying on us with cell phones, etc, etc. Think 3 block war.

Then they are hostile. Make no mistake; if a civilian fires on you Sgt. you have the right (depending on your AOEs) to defend yourself with up to and including deadly force. As for civilian's spying on us, that's not my department as I am not in the intel / MP sect. However, oversees we ran into this problem and the int and MP cell guys did do a good job of arresting them.

Tanks and combat teams are the best way to go? Sure if you have tanks. The CF is only holding onto tanks in the LdSH to develop MGS TTP. Once and if we get the MGS, then Tanks are gonzo. You can not fight with MGS the same way you could with tanks.

American's in Iraq are taking on the three block war with Bradley's, M1s and LVTP7. Why should Canada differ? True MGS don't have the armour that a Leopord does, but that doesn't say Canada goes in alone in Afgan or if we do go to Iraq even there. I'm sure if the crap really did hit the fan Brits / Yanks could assist us....just like they do in the air.

 

[GO!!!]

Westie,

Practice alot of the three block war ROE scenarios in the westies do you?

Have the local MP sect arrest a belligerent?

Call for US/Brit armour support?

Report higher, and request their help?

People spying on you are absolutely your problem - they will gather info leading to your demise!

Apparently you live under a rock - none of these are truly viable solutions for a dismounted (LUVW) mounted section, and the doctrine is changing to support this. While your slavish devotion to the pl comd's book in terms of reactions to certain situations is admirable, why don't you sit this one out and just watch what is being said on this thread. Thats why you have two ears and one mouth - so you can listen twice as much as you speak.

And how do you manage to have 9 years of mo experience at 25 yrs of age?

Cheers

 

[KevinB]

MCpl Westie - Squad One: pull head out of ass

                  Squad Two: Listen

                  Squad Three: Absorb

               

 

[MCpl Wesite]

Westie,

Practice alot of the three block war ROE scenarios in the westies do you?

Yes we do. It's annoying actually. The 3 block war concept isn't new, just the term is. All that time we spent in Yugo we were actually doing it. Abeit without all this speciallty training. The sole reason we were good at it was we already had all of our war fighting skills in place. We proved that in 94-05

Have the local MP sect arrest a belligerent?

Yes they did on my first tour. We had several individuals who intercepted our radio comms. Int parked a LS in our compound and picked up their transmissions and the MPs with the local police arrested them. I don't know what happened after that.

Call for US/Brit armour support?

why not? We are getting rid of our tanks. I said this as an idea. MGS and LAVs can't fight enemy tanks . We ask Yanks and Brits for air support during our ops why not armour support .  Canada doesn't have the defence budget to produce the equipment but they do. Any forseeable op will include these nations.

And how do you manage to have 9 years of mo experience at 25 yrs of age?

I joined at 16.


As for changing the way a dismounted attack works. I can't see anything. Currently the Pats are teaching instead of going to ground you take a knee. This eats up more ground in theory; however it also exposes you more to observation and fire. The whole basis of section attacks is close the distance to the enemy to kill him using everything at your disposal. This is why you call for support. Either form the other sections in the platoon or other atts. I like the way the system is trying to implement the 2 C6s for a platoon, however they did take away our motars. Also; new leadership courses are teaching section commanders not to do flanking attacks within a section context.  Currently, more training is need with either miles/ simunition gear. Unfortunatly this is an expensive, but more effective than blanks, way to train. Hopefully we will get increased budgets to train with these materials as they more realisticaly  determin casualties. The ultimate determining factor will of course be if a Canadian section goes into a battle and does it.

Cheers

 

[KevinB]

We have 2 x C6 at the Pl
We never lost the 60mm Mortar at that level either.

1) Enemy Armour - not a lot last against US AirPower

2) Your trying to insert Western Europe battelfield tactics into the tactics of fighting a dispersed enemy over complex terrain (both Mountain and Urban)

As for going to a kneee - you cannot go prone and maintain momentum wear the PPE we wear on operations.  The idea is you have won the firefight (or at least got temp suppression) before moving unless you absolutely need to get out fo a KZ and then its asses and elbows anyway doing the "mozambique shuffle"

 

[GO!!!]

Westie

Repeat after me - I AM NOT IN YUGO, AND I AM NOT GOING BACK X3.

Good, now that we have that out of the way, the MPs on the current tours are for the most part, trapped inside the compound, investigating CF pers. The combat arms troops on the ground handle most of the patrolling.

Kabul and Kandahar (and surrounding areas) are surprisingly unreceptive to lightly armed LEOs arresting people. Generally, at least a section is required to capture someone, and usually a platoon - mounted. An MP may permitted to attend simply to make sure the victim is not unduly abused.

US/Brit armour support is often hours away, if it's there at all. Also, armour is slow, and surprisingly ineffective in built up areas. In addition to this, not all nations (including us) are willing to simply send a QRF of armour every time you feel threatened

"the pats" are not teaching anyone to not go to ground in the classic fulda gap-assaulting the trench scenario. We are slowly realising that prone is not always the best position in urban warfare, and that it impedes mobility and vertical vision in a very big way. Also, your PPE only protects your vital organs if it is perpendicular to the ground, as opposed to paralell. As for the practice of "eating up ground" by taking a knee - cover will dictate your fire position. The practice of ALWAYS going prone is intended for troops engaging in basic section level battle drills - maybe when you're older you'll see the rest. (instinctive shooting, snap shoots, veh drills etc.)

If someone took your mortar, go get it back, we still have them available.

 

[Infanteer]

Ok, I split this "back to basics" bit off of the good infantry thread because it didn't need a bunfight throwing it off.  Have at 'er.

 

[HollywoodHitman]

One big thing people tend to forget is that one of the things that makes the Canadian Soldier so good at his job (Rental or Reg) is their ability to THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX. Every scenario will be different. The 3 Block War concept is too limiting in that it gives the impression that there are only those 3 aspects to war fighting. Thats an officer problem, where they coin a new phrase every 3 or 4 years so some moron at Kingston can get his/her tick in the box, and just like the dogs breakfast they have made of the Inf NCO's career progression, they've complicated / bent, what wasnt broken. (GOD I WISH I WENT TO ISCC when I was 24)........I digress;

There is no better way to discuss tactics that with people who have had a variety of experiences. The danger lies in where we think there is only ONE way to do something. Perceptual narrowing is not a good way too look at things. Too one dimensional.

The Section Attack is still an excellent means of training the troops and excercising command and control, but it is not realistic in a 3D battlefield area, against an enemy who shoots at you one minute and then appears benign the next.

When all goes sideways, troops will revert to their training. The skills that have been hammered into them since Battle School, and the principles of fire and movement will apply albeit in somewhat modified forms depending on terrain and overall situation. Their drills are the building block of all other warfighting tactics and training, so really should be considered training fundamentals rather than the 'way its gonna be done'.

IMHO the reason flanking attacks are not taught properly or at all in the schools, is because they are more technically difficult, and we all know that the big aim is to pass as many as possible with the thought that they will learn and develop further tactical sense when working with their home units.......(Don't flame me, it's an observation, not an opinion)

At the end of the day, if it works it works. There are ALWAYS points to improve upon, which is why the after action approach is good........IF constructive points are brought forward and filed away in the experience log which is the tactical chunk of your grey matter. It's all in the delivery.


TM

 

[KevinB]

US and Dutch Attach Helicopter assets have been on call for Afghan missions - they can respond with much greater ease and not restricted by terrain, however they are restricted by weather.

Anyone who has been to Kabul and elsewhere in built up areas of Afghan know that a vehicel borne QRF coudl be hours away the traffic simply will not part and short of brewing up hundreds of locals will not get out of your way - even if you have the authority to push vehicles out of your way the ram bars on your Hummer or LandCruiser only do so much and eventually you have just suceeded in making a traffic jam a tnagled mess.  Expective Armour to have a greater responce time is totally unrealisitc.

Add in the complex terrain and the fact that routes come and go as far as traverssing ability goes (and the OMF like to hambush QRF's...)

Sections have to bet trained to quickly respond with accurate fire and obtain a foothold ina secure environment - entering into book value section attack is ludicrous in some terrain - especially if you've seen the off route areas strewn with AP mines...


Looking at Operation Iraqi Freedom operations similar techniques and rapid clearing of urban dwellings is necessary.

 

[MCpl Wesite]

"the pats" are not teaching anyone to not go to ground in the classic fulda gap-assaulting the trench scenario. We are slowly realising that prone is not always the best position in urban warfare, and that it impedes mobility and vertical vision in a very big way. Also, your PPE only protects your vital organs if it is perpendicular to the ground, as opposed to paralell. As for the practice of "eating up ground" by taking a knee - cover will dictate your fire position. The practice of ALWAYS going prone is intended for troops engaging in basic section level battle drills - maybe when you're older you'll see the rest. (instinctive shooting, snap shoots, veh drills etc.)

wow. Well, this summer I was with the Pats and they told us ( and we did do  ) section attacks at the knee durring the approach phase. I can only go with what we were told / did. As for the comment, 'The practice of ALWAYS going prone is intended for troops engaging in basic section level battle drills - maybe when you're older you'll see the rest.' Wow, I never realized it. This is getting off topic. This thread started out as a suggestion on how to improve / change the way section attacks are done. I believe there are some excellent suggestions in this thread. Some of which I don't agree with and some I do. The section attack has never changed. Weapons and docturine have and so have our targets. Instead of fighting cold war enemies, we now are charged with fighting belligerents, terorist or some ticked off civillian with a weapon and a desire to get on the news. This creats a new problem for the section commander as now he has think outside the box as every situation will be differnent in terms of cause and effect with the local population, media and morale. However, the fundamental thing we have to remeber is that a section attck teaches troops and leadership to be aggressive. To want to kill the enemy, regards of outside situations. In training this is hard to accomplish as simulating casualties is hard; however, with simunitions / miles gear it is getting somewhat easier. The supporting elements will always have problems. Armour is slow, vehicles get stuck in traffic, weather hampers helos. But nothing will stop a infantry section from killing their enemy and accomplishing it's task.

 

[KevinB]

Which Pats?

 

[GO!!!]

I can only think that you were doing a walk thru talk thru, or were behind some nice cover, but a knee is generally not used as a fire position. As always, I will defer to the man on the ground, whoever he was.

You were'nt perhaps working with our "brothers" in 4 PPCLI were you? 

And finally, I don't like being called a "Pat" any more than you like to be called a "maggot" or "rental" so use the full name, or unit specifically please.

 

[KevinB]

FWIW - I believe the LAV units are doing the 1 knee as they are dismounting on the objective...
  Essentially getting out to take trenches / objectives.


If you can exit an armoured vehicle and get to what you want quick - like an entry point in a building - there is no need to go prone.

I don't like going prone as a rule since it cuts momentum and quite often due to ground you lose any and all obervation / ability to put fir on the tgt.

BUT as GO!!! pointed out the man on the ground his his ass in the slign is the one best set to determine which is best for him.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

"The practice of ALWAYS going prone is intended for troops engaging in basic section level battle drills"
wish the upper echelon realized that.

 

[GO!!!]

I am putting into practice the theory that if something is said often enough, eventually it will be written, and later taught, at which point it will become doctrine, and I will be vindicated as a genious.

Seriously though, I've been taught that your fire position is in relation to your cover, and going prone is not always the best, neither is kneeling frankly. There is no hard and fast rule. It's just one of those things that always "depends".

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Ya I know but tell that to the C9 gunner who on a live range was kicked in the back by the RSM to get him down.  Apparently you can see through tall grass.

 

[KevinB]

Dinosaur Repellent  ;D

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

oh he's in your neck of the woods now
better spray again