Forces struggling to recruit...

[Col.Steiner]

No that is the response of someone who has seen many like you who think the world owes them everything but get upset when they are faced with roadblocks that have to be overcome to achieve something.

Exactly when did I say anyone owed me anything? 3 years plus is too long to wait, period. If that is me whining, so be it.

 

[daftandbarmy]

3 years? Wow. What happened, did they find your KKK - Al Queda Alliance facebook page or something?

 

[daftandbarmy]

Some ideas from the US on how to increase the number of recruits - just lower the standards. Would it work for us?

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/11/27/america/army.php

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

I don't think it's whining, 3 years is an excessive amount of time to wait. If you're really interested you should be down there every week hounding them IMHO. Something is going wrong with that file. At the moment we are taking people from the street and whisking them off to Basic in record time...there is something amiss with this file.

 

[Greymatters]

Some ideas from the US on how to increase the number of recruits - just lower the standards. Would it work for us? 

I dont believe we have the same problem.  There are just as many recruits out there trying to get in as they ever have been.  The problem is the system is slow, cumbersome, and time intensive.  Too many hoops to jump through reqiring support from too many organizations who dont always work well together.  A training system that can only handle x number of candidates per year and acts like its rocket science to expand their training capabilities.  We've already got the plan for this process on paper, its been there ever since the 70's, and gets upgraded every once in a while, in case we went to war and needed to fast-track a few hundred thousand soldiers.  Instead of using it, they turned to the reserves to save money and effort, a short term solution that was supposed to give the training departments time to suck back and fix the problems of figuring out how to train a large group of recruits very quickly.  Instead the time got pissed away and now they are back to square one, still not enough soldiers, except this time a smaller reserve of eligible soldiers waiting in the wings to fill the gaps.

Look at this one guy here, saying he's been waiting for three years.  WTF?  If he meets minimum standards, get him trained.  Tell him he's suitable or not and let him move on with his life instead of jerking his chain forever. 

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Well the problem is throughout the Federal government, my boss has been trying to fill a position for the last 8 months, but HR pisses around and keeps changing how they want things done.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I dont believe we have the same problem.  There are just as many recruits out there trying to get in as they ever have been.  The problem is the system is slow, cumbersome, and time intensive.  Too many hoops to jump through reqiring support from too many organizations who dont always work well together.  A training system that can only handle x number of candidates per year and acts like its rocket science to expand their training capabilities.  We've already got the plan for this process on paper, its been there ever since the 70's, and gets upgraded every once in a while, in case we went to war and needed to fast-track a few hundred thousand soldiers.  Instead of using it, they turned to the reserves to save money and effort, a short term solution that was supposed to give the training departments time to suck back and fix the problems of figuring out how to train a large group of recruits very quickly.  Instead the time got pissed away and now they are back to square one, still not enough soldiers, except this time a smaller reserve of eligible soldiers waiting in the wings to fill the gaps.

Look at this one guy here, saying he's been waiting for three years.  WTF?  If he meets minimum standards, get him trained.  Tell him he's suitable or not and let him move on with his life instead of jerking his chain forever. 

I'm in grave danger of being waaaaay out of my lanes here, after all I've been retired for a lot longer than many members have been in the service and, in 35+ years of military service, I had next to nothing to do with recruiting or personnel policy, but:

1. I'm not sure there too many hoops. If we want a tough, superbly disciplined, well trained professional military then we have to start by recruiting the right sort of people. The problems (I think there are several) may include –

a. The hoops are not arranged properly – it’s not too hard to jump through a bunch of hoops if they are easily accessed and in the right order;

b. Some of the hoops are not in our hands; and

c. Money, money, money! Almost all problems can be solved if you throw enough money at them;

2. The training system was, indeed, the poor relation from about 1965 through to 1990±. I did 1½ ‘school’ tours – at one time recruit training, and some other training, too, was done in regiment depots which were rather like schools – and I remain frustrated, 30+ years later, at some of the experiences, mainly at those experiences inflicted upon us by an ill-equipped, uninformed, uniformed, empire building bureaucracy. (The civil service did nothing to, for or about military training - other than to shake heads sadly.)

3. Everyone, from Gen. Hillier on down, appears to know that –

a. The system is broken, and

b. The ways to ‘fix’ it are clear and simple, albeit a bit expensive.

There seems to be a disconnect being knowing and doing.

I have no doubt that the pressures of managing a war gets in the way of looking after the recruiting and training conundrum – and the war in Afghanistan exerts real, huge pressures on senior staff in Ottawa (Have you seen Gen. Hillier lately? He looks ten years older than he did 2½ years ago, when he took over as CDS.). A problem (just one of many) that I think I see (from the comfort of retirement) is that there are way too many people managing the war and, consequently, too few managing everything else. There seems to me to be a compelling careerist ‘need’ to be seen to be doing something, almost anything, involving the ‘war.’ Evidently recruiting and training the people we need to fight said war doesn’t count.

</rant>

 

[kincanucks]

People who have lived, worked, been educated, or traveled extensively in other countries should not expect their files to move quickly. There have been some changes to alleviate the wait times but like it or not the checks are done for a reason.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Considering the Forces is reaching a major crisis point, would it not hurt to bring the people in to carry out the fitness test and then basic training while their security checks are ongoing?

If they are washed out for fitness reasons, then the security checks are pulled. While being checked their status and ID cards reflect the fact. Lets face it, just how much is a recruit going to learn in basic training that poses a threat to the forces or Canada. Most new recruits out of basic have just finally figured out left from right and how to look after themselves. If their status is still not cleared up, then they have to sit in a holding unit doing simple duties. With this approach is some risk that a percentage will have to resign after the training is complete, but I suspect the benefits will outweigh the costs of those few.

 

[kincanucks]

Since the fitness test is carried out at BMQ and BOMQ that is a moot point.  If the applicant is a Canadian citizen who has lived, worked or was educated in another country while a Canadian citizen, I see no problem in letting that person enrol and have the pre-sec continue while they are training. Anyone else should wait.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

People who have lived, worked, been educated, or traveled extensively in other countries should not expect their files to move quickly. There have been some changes to alleviate the wait times but like it or not the checks are done for a reason.

However as the forces is wanting to recruit people of varied ethnic backgrounds and as this group likely represents a growing proportion of the potential recruiting pool we are going to have to come up with creative ways to address the timeframes and yet provide good operational security. We also have to consider that the Forces is handicapped by not having competitive wages, competing with a economic boom and perception with immigrants that the military is “lower class” occupation. It would be frustrating to be a recruiter to see prime candidates get picked up by other industries because of long wait times.

 

[TCBF]

- We are bleeding red ink because of bad HR decisions.  Druggies are getting out with $1500 a month VAC pensions claiming PTSD for previously existing psycho-social issues.

- We need to immediately give ALL applicants an MMPI 2 series psych eval.

- Garbage In Equals Garbage Out.

 

[Kirkhill]

I am of the opinion that we shouldn't be screening out applicants at the "barrack's gate" so to speak.  If they can walk to the gate under their own power, aren't coughing up a lung, can see the dotted line and sign on it then I think you should let'em in.  Put a hat and a pair of boots on him or her and start the new entrant becoming familiar with the RSM.  In the next 2-6 weeks both the new entrant and the CF will become very familiar with each other and determine whether or not there is a suitable relationship there.  In the mean time low grade security clearances, criminal and financial checks can be run.  At the end of the "probation" the candidate will know enough about the system to know if they want to stay and the system will know if the candidate is acceptable as is or is worth "improving" to meet requirements or even if it is worth "waiving" some requirements to get this candidate.

There is too much competition for good help these days.  Catch them while you can I say.  Don't give them one more excuse/reason NOT to join. 

Adjust the training, and access to classified positions, accordingly.

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

I am of the opinion that we shouldn't be screening out applicants at the "barrack's gate" so to speak.   If they can walk to the gate under their own power, aren't coughing up a lung, can see the dotted line and sign on it then I think you should let'em in.  Put a hat and a pair of boots on him or her and start the new entrant becoming familiar with the RSM.  In the next 2-6 weeks both the new entrant and the CF will become very familiar with each other and determine whether or not there is a suitable relationship there.  In the mean time low grade security clearances, criminal and financial checks can be run.  At the end of the "probation" the candidate will know enough about the system to know if they want to stay and the system will know if the candidate is acceptable as is or is worth "improving" to meet requirements or even if it is worth "waiving" some requirements to get this candidate.

There is too much competition for good help these days.  Catch them while you can I say.  Don't give them one more excuse/reason NOT to join. 

Adjust the training, and access to classified positions, accordingly.

Well basically that's what we used to do with Chilliwack and Cornwallis.....we took them there and kicked the crap out of them for 13 weeks or so and if they cut the mustard they got to stay for a BE (3 years), If they didn't cut the mustard during their first 2 BEs they were given a handshake and told we no longer required their services. My security check came through around week 8 at Chilliwack if I remember properly....the MPs had me in to verify a few points and then it was done....as  my career progressed we did further security clearances. the bureaucracy has complicated things un-necessarily in some cases....I do agree we have to be smart and not admit folks who've been to Terror school in Whatitsstan though....that shouldn't take too long to check out.

 

[mashup]

People who have lived, worked, been educated, or traveled extensively in other countries should not expect their files to move quickly. There have been some changes to alleviate the wait times but like it or not the checks are done for a reason.

This is true, kincanucks, but it doesn't take into account that the world is becoming and already to a large degree has become significantly globalized.  As E.R. Campbell mentioned, demographics are changing in Canada and this is only going to become more pronounced as time goes by.  These first-generation Canadians are going to have links all over the world and make your job a living nightmare.  You shouldn't minimize the supposedly unavoidable multi-year wait times by suggesting spending time in other countries is exceptional, when international travel is only going to become more and more common.

It isn't very common for Canadians to have degrees from American universities, however I have two friends who've spent time in Eastern Europe, Cambodia and SE Asia, New Zealand, Europe either on exchanges or travelling.  The first is completing post-graduate education and has been working as an engineer in various different specializations (including designing military simulators), the second has just been accepted to medical school after doing outreach work up north and in the lower DTES.  As I've known them personally for about a 15 years, I can verify that they are in no way security risks.  They would never tolerate the kind of routine blunders that happen in the CFRC on a regular basis (ie. oops we lost your file), much less the obligatory pre-sec wait time.  They don't lack the stones to make good soldiers:  my buddy in med school used to work rappelling out of helicopters to fight forest fires in northern BC, until he got blown off a cliff by the downdraft, and all three of us used to go backcountry ski touring/mountaineering together.  The thing is you don't have to be a CF member to expect professional competence, and either due to real incompetence or the lack of transparency in the recruiting system, to a lot of people the interminable wait times at the CFRC come off like they're playing with you.  Or, if that was too long:

Look at this one guy here, saying he's been waiting for three years.  WTF?  If he meets minimum standards, get him trained.  Tell him he's suitable or not and let him move on with his life instead of jerking his chain forever. 

+1

Senior NCO's, eh?

Taking a shot at me for whining ( :crybaby rather than seeing this as constructive criticism is your loss.  It did, however, interest me in this topic enough to do some research.  I'm going to take this as independent confirmation:

[quote author=DND/CF Ombudsman]For the overwhelming majority of new applicants, the initial recruiting phase is their first experience with the Canadian Forces. If this experience is unsatisfactory for any reason, there is a strong possibility that an applicant will discontinue the process. This could – and does – result in the loss to the Canadian Forces of some of the most skilled and talented Canadians. At the same time, applicants that have had an unsatisfactory experience with the recruiting process are likely to discuss this with their friends, families and colleagues, all potential recruits possibly lost to Canada’s military. And, more broadly, this experience will very likely shape the way in which the discouraged applicant – and many others – views the Canadian Forces and the Government of Canada as a whole.[/quote]

You better believe I discussed it.  If the recruiters had initially projected a 3-year wait time I may not have taken such a negative view of the process.  Incidentally, there's already also a host of recommandations, none of which are indicated to be implemented.  The point is not to take a shot at recruiters, but that they need to start adapting an outdated bureacratic system to the modern world.  It should not be a civvy's job to jack up (more politely, 'remind') CF members to ensure their file gets through -- even if they stick around as I did, it gives a bad image to the CF.  It may not be the fault of the CFRC directly but that shouldn't be taken as an excuse for the agonizing wait time.  At some point you have to get on with your life, with the CF or without it.

However that time in my life has come and gone.  Good luck to you with the next one buddy. ^-^

 

[Blindspot]

Look at this one guy here, saying he's been waiting for three years.  WTF?  If he meets minimum standards, get him trained.  Tell him he's suitable or not and let him move on with his life instead of jerking his chain forever. 

When I joined in '88, I went in to the recruiter (Moss Park) a total of three times - one being to hand in my application. The second time, I did all my tests. The third, I had my interview and then I was sworn in on the spot. After I was sworn in, I waited ten minutes before my Lt. arrived and another ten minutes after that, I had a rifle in my hands, learning how to strip it - no exaggeration. That was in the month of April. By September, I had qualified for my trade.

My second go around I'm also nearing three years after initial application. A combination of the VFS, meds, two "sorry, your not deployable letters" and laser eye surgery have contributed to the long wait. I'm sure the process didn't have to be so long considering I could have been informed about all issues concerning my non-deployable status up front, and having to find out two years after the first of two medicals your eyesight isn't good enough. Compound this with the issue of a narrow window of opportunity to have all of your training done within one year and the frustration and anxiety mounts. I even had to reapply after my first non deployable letter because my file had been closed and then told that I shouldn't have reapplied!

One month to go before I submit my ophthalmologist's letter and I'm just wondering what they'll throw at me next.

 

[Col.Steiner]

Since the fitness test is carried out at BMQ and BOMQ that is a moot point.  If the applicant is a Canadian citizen who has lived, worked or was educated in another country while a Canadian citizen, I see no problem in letting that person enrol and have the pre-sec continue while they are training. Anyone else should wait.

I agree with that, and that would fit my profile. Is there any plans on implementing this, or are things going to remain as is? I can understand that it takes time to do this background check, but I think there should be a list of countries that are on a 'safe' list, and ones that may not be UN. I think Japan poses absolutely no risk, and who hasn't taught there straight out of university? The only terrorist org. there would be the ultra-nationalistic one, which would automatically rule my white-ass out of membership. Common sense should be applied here.

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

This is the reason why we have to start appealing to our new reality when we recruit. This is having profound results for us too and why our military culture will change also.
Bold print added by me

Foreign-born population hits 75-year high
TAVIA GRANT

Globe and Mail Update

December 4, 2007 at 3:34 PM EST

TORONTO — One in every five Canadians is now foreign-born, the highest proportion in 75 years, a shift likely to have profound consequences for Canada's economic and cultural future.

Canada is becoming ever more diverse, Statistics Canada's 2006 census shows. The country's foreign-born population soared 13.6 per cent between 2001 and 2006 — four times higher than the Canadian-born population.

For the first time, the proportion of the foreign-born population who were born in Asia and the Middle East surpassed the proportion born in Europe. As of last year, more than half of immigrants continued to come from Asia, including the Middle East, but a growing number also came from the Americas and Africa.

And they're not just sticking to Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal. A growing number of immigrants are going to the suburbs surrounding the big cities, along with smaller cities such as Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg and Ottawa, suggesting diversity is spreading across Canada.

Videos

The immigrant experience

New census data show how most of Canada's immigrants are flocking to Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver. Here's one story


Immigrants in rural Canada

Lorraine Hatch is one of the few - perhaps the only - visible minorities living in Hanover, a small community in southern Ontario

“More and more are going out to these other municipalities and that has an impact on service delivery and language and education and economics of finding jobs and training,” said Anil Arora, director-general of the census program branch of Statistics Canada. “Policy makers and decision makers are going to have to take note of some of these stats that we've published today.”

By 2030, if the trends continue, Canada's population growth will stem solely from immigration, he added.

Canada continues to have a much higher proportion of foreign-born people than the U.S. and is second only to Australia in having the highest proportion among Western countries.

In Canada, the rate of growth of new immigrants is accelerating while in Australia, levels have stagnated in the past five years, a Statscan spokeswoman said, suggesting Canada may take the top spot in the years to come.

Other findings from the report show:

• In 1981, China ranked No. 10 as the main country of origin for new Canadians. Today, China is the top country of origin.

• One in five of the foreign-born population list Chinese languages as their mother tongue.

• The 6.2 million foreign-born people reported more than 200 countries of origin in the last census.

Statscan releases data on immigration, citizenship, language, mobility and migration every five years.

 

[Greymatters]

This is the reason why we have to start appealing to our new reality when we recruit. This is having profound results for us too and why our military culture will change also. 

What parts of military culture do you see as changing?

 

[Roy Harding]

What parts of military culture do you see as changing?

Hell - most of us who're in longer than a decade ago HAVE seen it.

Anybody here remember courses BEFORE the Human Rights Act?  Back when they could and did occasionally strike you, insult your parentage, etcetera?

Anybody here remember a Church Parade?

Remember when you weren't ALLOWED to read the CFAOs or QR&Os?

Just a couple of things that came immediately to mind.  The culture IS changing, HAS been changing, and will CONTINUE to change.  For the most part, it won't be noticeable to anyone still serving, as they'll be changing along with it.