Freedom Convoy protests [Split from All things 2019-nCoV]

[Good2Golf]

But my experience was that it got a lot more busy on the weekends, mostly from suburban Ottawans or Quebecers wanting to party. I didn’t know what the Patriotes flag was until that time.

So like a friendly Black Bloc then?

 

[Winds]

Anyone who thinks we have any leverage with the Yanks on who they let into their country is also delusional. Even if Trudeau wasn’t such a weak spineless twit, the Yanks would have told us to pound sand anyways. Canada has one overriding national interest: excellent relations with the US. Does anyone really think the federal government would sacrifice billions of dollars in trade across the border for a handful of unvaccinated truckers?

I'm not sure why people keep using "maintain good relations with the U.S." as a reason why the GoC prevented U.S. truckers from entering Canada. The government at the time was 100% for punitive measures against unvaccinated individuals, justifying such action by saying that it would prevent COVID transmission (a claim that never had any scientific backing)... if the government was really concerned about not harming relations with the U.S., the PM wouldn't be constantly bad mouthing Trump when there's a real possibility of him getting re-elected this year.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/truckers-vaccine-vandetta-conservative-mps-1.6325761

Further, it was not just cross-border restrictions on truckers specifically, but also announced plans to have the vaccine mandate covering federally regulated industries to apply to the trucking industry as well. There was a big push from the government to allow no exceptions. After the convoy had been dispersed, the plans to instill a mandate on truckers driving interprovincially were scrapped.

Feds ditch interprovincial COVID-19 vaccine mandate for truckers

The federal Liberals are scrapping a proposal to require commercial truck drivers to show proof of vaccination when crossing into another province.

tnc.news

These policies were added to the already in force mandates for federal public servants, workers in federally regulated industries, and the federal employment minister's support of all private corporations to put in place similar mandates. The PM never gave a word of sympathy to all the people he had fired and denied EI (that would be off brand at the time), rather he continued to paint them as an existential threat and questioned publicly if the country should "tolerate them". It's not that the PM wouldn't speak with protest organizers, he wouldn't even acknowledge any of the harm he caused them (despite being no stranger to sympathy speeches). Instead it was all inflammatory words (ex. referring to them in The House as "people who wave swastikas")... then the freezing of bank accounts.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I'm not sure why people keep using "maintain good relations with the U.S." as a reason why the GoC prevented U.S. truckers from entering Canada.

Canada, like the US, wasn't letting unvaccinated people cross the borders. What @RangerRay was saying is there is no timeline where the US would have listened to Canada telling them to let in unvaccinated Canadians because we thing they should, regardless of what our stance was on the vaccination requirements for Americans entering Canada.

The US regularly stops Canadians and others from all over the world going across their borders for any number of reasons, kind of how national sovereignty works.

A lot of the protesters were pissed off because the US wouldn't let them in without a vaccination, and somehow blaming the Federal government for the decision of a sovereign country and blaming Trudeau for not telling US border guards what to do. The lack of basic understanding of civics was kind of shocking, and hearing people talking about their US constitutional rights as a Canadian in Canada was both funny and sad.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Canada, like the US, wasn't letting unvaccinated people cross the borders.

Unless you played in the NHL.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Unless you played in the NHL.

Well, sure, rules don't apply if you are wealthy.

 

[dimsum]

Unless you played in the NHL.

…I thought they weren’t allowed to come into Canada then? Tyler Bertuzzi, as an example.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Unless you played in the NHL.

Or you were a trucker, railroader, etc

 

[OldSolduer]

…I thought they weren’t allowed to come into Canada then? Tyler Bertuzzi, as an example.

Don’t let billions of $ slip through your fingers because of some silly rule

 

[Jarnhamar]

I thought NHL teams were allowed to cross the border after an agreement due to "national interests" and there were a few players who weren't vaccinated ?

 

[Winds]

Canada, like the US, wasn't letting unvaccinated people cross the borders. What @RangerRay was saying is there is no timeline where the US would have listened to Canada telling them to let in unvaccinated Canadians because we thing they should, regardless of what our stance was on the vaccination requirements for Americans entering Canada.

The US regularly stops Canadians and others from all over the world going across their borders for any number of reasons, kind of how national sovereignty works.

A lot of the protesters were pissed off because the US wouldn't let them in without a vaccination, and somehow blaming the Federal government for the decision of a sovereign country and blaming Trudeau for not telling US border guards what to do. The lack of basic understanding of civics was kind of shocking, and hearing people talking about their US constitutional rights as a Canadian in Canada was both funny and sad.

Perhaps you should reread what I said. There was never any inclination that the GoC had any opposition for the U.S. policy, by all accounts (including the governments own statements) they were emphatically for the measures. And actually, if you look at the timeline the U.S. did provide exceptions to Canadian truckers for the first 2 years of the pandemic. What about the proposed interprovincial mandate that was also in the news at the time... was that the U.S.'s fault too? What about the mandates for federal employees and federally regulated industries? What about domestic travel restrictions? Statements made about whether the country should "tolerate" the unvaccinated minority, or if they deserve to have rights?

The "freedom convoy" was about opposition to government mandates in general, as well as the 'othering' of unvaccinated individuals, not just about the U.S.'s border restrictions. And it was primarily about mandates from the start (see CBC article in my last post). Truckers were used as a symbol of the 'final straw'. First you mischaracterise what was being protested then dismiss it as outside of the GoC's control, as if it wasn't the PM's own policies that they were upset about... it's a classic straw man argument you're making (or merely parroting).

As well, Canadians also have constitutional rights, including those found in The Charter as and The Bill of Rights. Most people are not well versed in our constitutional framework in general, doesn't mean their grievances aren't valid.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I also doubt that many people in Ottawa fully understood the ramifications of "every federally regulated industry" when they drafted that. The breadth and scope of that statement is rather mind boggling.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I also doubt that many people in Ottawa fully understood the ramifications of "every federally regulated industry" when they drafted that. The breadth and scope of that statement is rather mind boggling.

I think they absolutely did understand.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I think they absolutely did understand.

I doubt that, just based on the sort stuff I saw come out of Ottawa during my time in the PS. We spent a lot of time saying to them "You really might want to think about that" Yes there are some very smart people there, but there are a lot of drones and some of them at DG and ADM level.

 

[markppcli]

I thought NHL teams were allowed to cross the border after an agreement due to "national interests" and there were a few players who weren't vaccinated ?

Unvaccinated players were t lowed across the border: Archibald and Bertuzi were a couple of bigger names that were affected. Archibald was cut from the oilers as a result, turns out you have to make it to Edmonton to be paid to play for the Oilers.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Perhaps you should reread what I said. There was never any inclination that the GoC had any opposition for the U.S. policy, by all accounts (including the governments own statements) they were emphatically for the measures. And actually, if you look at the timeline the U.S. did provide exceptions to Canadian truckers for the first 2 years of the pandemic. What about the proposed interprovincial mandate that was also in the news at the time... was that the U.S.'s fault too? What about the mandates for federal employees and federally regulated industries? What about domestic travel restrictions? Statements made about whether the country should "tolerate" the unvaccinated minority, or if they deserve to have rights?

The "freedom convoy" was about opposition to government mandates in general, as well as the 'othering' of unvaccinated individuals, not just about the U.S.'s border restrictions. And it was primarily about mandates from the start (see CBC article in my last post). Truckers were used as a symbol of the 'final straw'. First you mischaracterise what was being protested then dismiss it as outside of the GoC's control, as if it wasn't the PM's own policies that they were upset about... it's a classic straw man argument you're making (or merely parroting).

As well, Canadians also have constitutional rights, including those found in The Charter as and The Bill of Rights. Most people are not well versed in our constitutional framework in general, doesn't mean their grievances aren't valid.

Okay then, what do I know, I only lived through it and talked to people on the ground to see what their damage was. There was no unifying issue other than general frustration, but there absolutely were clueless assholes protesting not being able to cross the US border without a vaccine. There also absolutely were equally clueless assholes that wanted to overthrow the government and replace them with some kind of appointed council. Remnants of said assholes are still in the city.

Not really sure what you read, but hard to forget what some random asshole decided to yell at people in the grocery store, or the other ones while driving (dangerously) around the neighbourhood in their stupid shortbox pickup. The majority of people that I talked to were A) dumb AF B) completely misinformed and C) Loudly demonstrating both, in the most ignorant matter they could.

You know what isn't going to win sympathy? Slow rolling the main arteries and slowing down things like ambulances. Waited 40 minutes for an ambulance in the middle of this, and wasn't because they were stretched thin or on a call; took them that long to detour.

 

[Winds]

Okay then, what do I know, I only lived through it and talked to people on the ground to see what their damage was. There was no unifying issue other than general frustration, but there absolutely were clueless assholes protesting not being able to cross the US border without a vaccine. There also absolutely were equally clueless assholes that wanted to overthrow the government and replace them with some kind of appointed council. Remnants of said assholes are still in the city.

Not really sure what you read, but hard to forget what some random asshole decided to yell at people in the grocery store, or the other ones while driving (dangerously) around the neighbourhood in their stupid shortbox pickup. The majority of people that I talked to were A) dumb AF B) completely misinformed and C) Loudly demonstrating both, in the most ignorant matter they could.

You know what isn't going to win sympathy? Slow rolling the main arteries and slowing down things like ambulances. Waited 40 minutes for an ambulance in the middle of this, and wasn't because they were stretched thin or on a call; took them that long to detour.

Again, you seem to not read my posts very well. I have never stated support for the acts of any protestors, though I never believed such acts reasonably amounted to some sort of existential national threat. I'm very much for the rule of law and don't believe the OPS should have directed protestors to park vehicles on city streets, then let them stay there.

For some reason you're now going on about personal anecdotes of your interactions with protestors, which are entirely separate from anything I mentioned. I bet most protests you go to will be filled with people who are inarticulate, illogical, and misunderstand the exact cause. That's not a statement on the merits of stated cause itself, however.

I've lived in downtown Ottawa too (close to Rideau St) and have plenty of anecdotes about being yelled at on the street, disturbances at grocery stores, witnessing assaults, etc... and that's not even considering any protest. Lowertown has the highest crime rates in the city, and shootings/stabbings in the Byward Market are not uncommon... so what?... Should we invoke the Emergencies Act to clean the streets since the OPS won't? Do you think such an action would be covered by Section 1 of The Charter? You've certainly made constitutional assertions before.

 

[YZT580]

Okay then, what do I know, I only lived through it and talked to people on the ground to see what their damage was. There was no unifying issue other than general frustration, but there absolutely were clueless assholes protesting not being able to cross the US border without a vaccine. There also absolutely were equally clueless assholes that wanted to overthrow the government and replace them with some kind of appointed council. Remnants of said assholes are still in the city.

Not really sure what you read, but hard to forget what some random asshole decided to yell at people in the grocery store, or the other ones while driving (dangerously) around the neighbourhood in their stupid shortbox pickup. The majority of people that I talked to were A) dumb AF B) completely misinformed and C) Loudly demonstrating both, in the most ignorant matter they could.

You know what isn't going to win sympathy? Slow rolling the main arteries and slowing down things like ambulances. Waited 40 minutes for an ambulance in the middle of this, and wasn't because they were stretched thin or on a call; took them that long to detour.

much as I empathize with you, neither being stupid nor being loud and obnoxious are reasons for A) having your bank account frozen or B) being called racist, Neanderthal, Nazi or whatever by the leader of your nation. We have tolerated to varying degrees having trucks and dozers burnt or sabotaged in BC, the mainlines of the CN and CP blockaded in Ontario, legally purchased land stolen by possible descendants of the original occupants i.e. Caledonia etc. etc. without ever having to resort to such extreme measures and the federal judge agreed. There were methods within our existing laws to control said disturbances but they weren't used. We bypassed all of them and went straight to a full-blown war response. The drivers stated their intentions long before they arrived in OW. They stated what they wanted in order to leave. The whole response was choreographed to proved the GOC with the maximum good press. 1. label drivers as malcontents and right wing extremists or terrorists. 2. Give them a couple of weeks in town with lots of horn blowing, idling engines, bouncy castles or whatever but make sure every bad action is amplified for the press. 3. Arrange for positive feedback about your planned response. 4. Start moving things out before you pass legislation so the apparent success of your actions are immediate. 4. Freeze accounts and move them out in the meantime issuing the most extreme charges possible under all legislation. Isn't that the way it went down? Don't forget we have a drama teacher for a P.M.

 

[Lumber]

much as I empathize with you, neither being stupid nor being loud and obnoxious are reasons for A) having your bank account frozen or B) being called racist, Neanderthal, Nazi or whatever by the leader of your nation.

They weren't called Nazis for because they were being loud and obnoxious, they were being called Nazis BECAUSE THERE WAS PEOPLE FLYING LITEARL NAZI FLAGS AT THE PROTEST.

The whole response was choreographed to proved the GOC with the maximum good press. 1. label drivers as malcontents and right wing extremists or terrorists. 2. Give them a couple of weeks in town with lots of horn blowing, idling engines, bouncy castles or whatever but make sure every bad action is amplified for the press. 3. Arrange for positive feedback about your planned response. 4. Start moving things out before you pass legislation so the apparent success of your actions are immediate. 4. Freeze accounts and move them out in the meantime issuing the most extreme charges possible under all legislation. Isn't that the way it went down? Don't forget we have a drama teacher for a P.M.

This is just absolute hogwash on par with stolen US election claims. What evidence do you have to corroborate ANY of this? It's nothing but fantastical conjecture.

 

[OldSolduer]

They weren't called Nazis for because they were being loud and obnoxious, they were being called Nazis BECAUSE THERE WAS PEOPLE FLYING LITEARL NAZI FLAGS AT THE PROTEST.

I think there was one person that did that and he was not seen after that one instance IIRC but I could be wrong.

 

[brihard]

I think there was one person that did that and he was not seen after that one instance IIRC but I could be wrong.

That jives with my recollection. I only recall the swastika as a one-off, and other than a ‘huh, keep an eye out for that’, I don’t remember it coming up much at all.