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Freedom Convoy protests [Split from All things 2019-nCoV]

He’s either an idiot or the worlds biggest evil genius…
While I don’t think he’s “explain quantum computers” smart, he exhibits very capable conniving behaviour, so I certainly wouldn’t say ‘idiot’ in the sense of the village having some guy that doesn’t have enough sense to keep from falling off the wall.
 
I am often impressed by just how much Trudeau's greatest detractors think he is capable of doing.

I don't know, this seems within his grasp.

"Hey Minister ________ make these white, cis, racists go away, do what ever it takes."

I mean he's managed to bungled a lot so far, expecting he bungled this doesn't seem to be a bridge too far.
 
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While I don’t think he’s “explain quantum computers” smart, he exhibits very capable conniving behaviour, so I certainly wouldn’t say ‘idiot’ in the sense of the village having some guy that doesn’t have enough sense to keep from falling off the wall.

He wouldn't be able to do a damn thing if he wasn't also surrounded by enough capable conniving people.
 
No, it became about mandates (and other stuff) afterwards. The original protest was about truckers not being able to enter the US to deliver their goods, because of….wait for it…border rules. Vaccine mandates, etc got the non-truckers (which were by far the largest group) out.

And yes, the GoC could have pushed back against the restrictions. Imagine how well that would have played out in US-Canadian relations. Again, it’s our trucks trying to get into their country.

Their country, their rules, right?
The "freedom convoy" was primarily about mandates from the start, the truckers were uphold as a symbol (again, the straw that broke the canel's back). Masking and other grievances, like opposition to lockdowns, got tacked on from the start too. Perhaps you should read the protestors' initial communications about what they were protesting, rather than coming to your own conclusions.

The GoC also could have not imposed its own border restrictions on incoming U.S. truckers. Canada is arguably more reliant on traffic coming in from the U.S., particularly in winter, than the other way around and the percentage of unvaccinated U.S. truckers was substantially higher than in Canada... do you not remember trucking companies having to set up logistical plans to transfer trucks between drivers prior to entering Canada? Of course, allowing unvaccinated U.S. truckers to continue to enter Canada would be off brand for the GoC at the time.

Are you trying to argue that the reason the GoC cooperated with the U.S. in creating reciprocal border restrictions was because they didn't want to harm relations with them?... Do you really believe that was their main objective?
 
Ah, the irony of someone with a Roman SPQR user avatar criticizing the government using of force.

Some of the Freedum idiots are still around slow rolling on highways causing backups, almost road raged who decided it would be a fun thing to do the day I was on the way to my dad's funeral.

They were impacting emergency responders, which found out when had to call an ambulance. So outside of occupying people's neighbourhood downtown, threatening, harassing and assaulting people and generally being POS they were causing significant and unnecessary disruption way beyond what is routinely accepted here in the weekly protests and marches that happen downtown for various causes. And yes, there were a bunch of racist, neo nazi hillbillies, conspiracy nuts and others in the mix. If you find yourself on the same side as people like that, even if they are the vocal minority, may be a good time to gut check your position.

Sounds like some people are no longer politically satisfied with simply putting a sign on their lawn 25 days prior to, and removing it within 72 hours after, an election.
 
Are you trying to argue that the reason the GoC cooperated with the U.S. in creating reciprocal border restrictions was because they didn't want to harm relations with them?... Do you really believe that was their main objective?
It may not be the main objective, but I think it was an objective.

Have people forgotten what it was like in Spring of 2020? Folks were trying to figure out what happened and how to stop the spread. The world was essentially building an airplane while flying it - we don’t have the 20/20 (heh) hindsight of now, and we can’t 100% predict what would have happened if things turned out differently.
 
Truth be told he alone is not capable. However his minions might be. Strength in numbers.
Assuming, of course, he consistently listens to the minions and does what they say. My feel is that some saner heads may be offering up better advice (how much worse can it be), but that PMJT's doing his own thing because of a shrinking GAF factor. That might change as the election gets closer, but we'll see.
 
It may not be the main objective, but I think it was an objective.

Have people forgotten what it was like in Spring of 2020? Folks were trying to figure out what happened and how to stop the spread. The world was essentially building an airplane while flying it - we don’t have the 20/20 (heh) hindsight of now, and we can’t 100% predict what would have happened if things turned out differently.
I remember it well... during that time the GoC and PHAC were also telling people not to wear masks (to prevent a run on supply, they chose to lie to the public) and that travel restrictions were ineffective before reversing their positions.

The "freedom convoy" took place about 2 years later though, after there was already strong evidence that immunity from available vaccines waned drastically after a couple months and that they never significantly prevented transmission, if at all (feel free to go back in time in my posts to verify this isn't just hindsight). I'm not a fan of protests in general, and don't support the blocking of streets, let alone major economic infrastructure. I also think the convoy protestors had legitimate grievances that many brush off because of their disdain for unvaccinated people.

Did the vaccines help prevent those most at risk from COVID from being hospitalized or potentially dying? Definitely. Did they reduce transmission in a meaningful way? Apparently not (despite false claims of being able to achieve herd immunity with sufficient vaccine uptake).

Did firing unvaccinated employees who worked from home somehow protect their coworkers? I don't see how it would. Did the vaccine passport system that allowed vaccinated individuals to forego capacity restrictions and other prevention measures lead to increased transmission as the Omicron strain came around? Most likely (the unvaccinated were prevented from going most places), and it probably lead to more hospitalizations and deaths.
 
I will agree the Trucker convoy for you guys to deal with was going to be a PR dumpster fire from the begining no matter how it was handled.
I honestly can't think of a public order intervention in recent memory that wasn't. Greater or lesser degrees perhaps, but law enforcement is always to little-to late or too much-too soon.

I will admit that the OPS is in a tough situation. They have to police the city that houses the federal government and parliament. I would assume its at least implied they are partially responsible for its security if it means keeping Ottawa itself "safe".

If something really bad were to happen to say parliament hill (Like a deranged shooter which as happened) I assume the brass at OPS would be rather nervous and twitchy about it. Its that kind of influence I refer to.

To expand a little bit, constitutionally, law enforcement ('administration of justice') is a provincial responsibility. In Ontario, the Police Services Act further devolves that responsibility to the municipalities. The municipal police service has original jurisdiction. The Chief, Police Services Board or local Crown Attorney can request OPP assistance. The Minister (Solicitor General) can direct it.

I highly doubt political involvement in police operations happens in a significant or material way. Even if the politicians aren't bright enough to appreciate the downsides, no doubt advisors and staff are. It's not like their job is dependent on the whims of the politician ('I'll have your badge'), police chiefs are hired by their Board.

The last time something like that arose in a significant way was during the Ipperwash protest where Premier Mike Harris was (in)famously quoted as saying "I want those f****g Indians out of the Park'. He forgot a couple of things: he said it out loud - in a meeting; and failed to appreciate that, when push came to shove, the people who heard it weren't about to fall on their sword to protect him. The damage was done however, since all of the subsequent police action was seen to have been in response to this so-called direction when, in truth, it was a failure of incident command.

Thanks for the additional insight into solo command vs. unified command. While I'm not law enforcement there also seems to be a common issue with complex incidents not initiating unified command early - at least in the natural disaster/response world - for a wide range of reasons from egos involved to lack of training/understanding what it means to go to unified command to interagency barriers.

There have also been successes...the best of which I know of is apparently the Oklahoma City Bombing event in the US where within 10 minutes of the initial report unified command had been established, lead agency identified, and communications set up....the head of City Police, local FBI lead, and the local ATF lead were all golf buddies and established it immediately. Unfortunately one of the better known recent events also showed where it failed - see https://www.rmwb.ca/en/community-se...ources/Documents/Wildfire_Lessons_Learned.pdf on page 10 on the first bullet on response showing how the lack of unified command impacted the response to the 2016 Fort Mac Murry wildfire.

For those not working in ICS one thing I've learned is that rank/position in your day jobs don't really matter...its' the role you're filling in the ICS system. But this also means that some great operators at the squad/district/company level can't mentally stretch to adjust to the bigger strategic position and vice versa...some great strategic leaders shouldn't be trusted with leading tactical ops. For those agencies that also use formal rank (CAF, Police Services, Fire Departments) the organizational structure can work against you as the Incident Commander - Sgt. or Captain - might need to tell a director/general to get out and shut up...which you can't always do.

Appreciate the insight...just shows how conflicting and complex the challenge was in the absence of clear direction from higher.
foresterab
A significant part of police incident command training speaks to recognizing the expertise and services at your disposal, regardless of the rank or position it emanates from. It can get a little murky when different agencies are involved. Sometimes it's simply out of a lack of awareness, sometimes it's ego. Unfortunately, as in so many things, training and procedures evolve from previous events where things didn't go so well.

In the case of Ottawa, the PS couldn't get effective incident command going even within itself. If I recall correctly, the Chief went through several commanders in the first week or so. In my humble opinion, the Ontario Solicitor General should have seen that the PS was spinning its wheels and directed the OPP to assist, but knowing the Minister at the time I'm not surprised it didn't happen. From the provinces point of view, it makes everything their problem, and who volunteers for that?
 
I read your post. It was and remains a bad take. Who, precisely, was the PM supposed to meet with?
My post didn’t take sides, I simply said if he met with them and listened to their concerns things would have disolved quicker.
I didn't say I supported them.

As for who should he meet with? How about the ones charged for leading the protest? You say there was no clear leader but the media at the time mentioned Tamara Lich as the leader repeatedly.

Quote from Ottawa citizen about Tamara Lich "During the Ottawa protest she spoke at press conferences, urged supporters to remain peaceful, and was involved in negotiating an aborted deal with Mayor Jim Watson to move some trucks out of residential areas downtown."

As for the asshats that tagged along if the organizers left the asshats would soon follow, the whole cut of the head analogy would prevaile here.
What there wasn’t was any clearly accepted and defined core leadership at that time who actually could speak for the larger group. Meeting with any of them would have been essentially picking and legitimating a few from among them.
I am not a social media user but even i heard the media called Tamara the organizer even before the convoy set out.
And, quite frankly, I doubt the PM or other senior members of government would have been particularly safe in their company.
With an army, police force and media to protect him. Please.
You’re essentially endorsing public policy reform by tantrum and coercion. Maybe you’re cool with that, but that doesn’t get you to the grown ups table. Nothing I saw on the ground suggests that the core group of a couple thousand would be placated simply by “being heard”. They had demands that they tried to force through outside the lawful system, and they occupied the downtown core and denied its peaceable use to tens of thousands of others for three weeks over it. They were certainly seen and heard by everyone, but they wouldn’t take ‘no’ for an answer, and so it went the way it went.
I didn't endorse anything, I just stated the fact that when angry people feel heard they get less angry. I use this principal regularly when my children argue. I give each one the chance to say their peace when they are done the anger is 10% of what it was and a conversation can happen.
They made their intent clear on the way here. There was never any cohesive leadership acting in reasonably and in good faith for government to meet with. Just a bunch of disparate but overlapping groups counselling criminality. Some figures did emerge as more centralized, if loose, leadership once they got here and dug in, but there was nothing those people were doing that would have justified legitimating their tactics by bowing to demands to parley.
Name a protest, right wrong or indifferent that was listened to without causing disruption? If a protest doesn't disrupt someone it just gets ignored.
Being tax paying citizens justifies their voice, if they can't get heard using normal means than I support their right to protest peacefully. Farmers protest by clogging the highways with Tractors and when the get to parliament they don't get called racists and get their accounts frozen.

The core group of trucker protesting the mandates were peaceful. The groups being idiots happen. The same has happened with the Palestine protesters, some want peace and I fully support their right to call for it. Some believe the Isrealites deserved Dec 7 and are calling for Jewish blood, that I cannot support. Don't paint them all with the same brush, that's very juvenile.

AFAIK PMJT refused to meet with anyone relating to the convoy. That is my basis for my posts.
 
My post didn’t take sides, I simply said if he met with them and listened to their concerns things would have disolved quicker.
I didn't say I supported them.

As for who should he meet with? How about the ones charged for leading the protest? You say there was no clear leader but the media at the time mentioned Tamara Lich as the leader repeatedly.

Quote from Ottawa citizen about Tamara Lich "During the Ottawa protest she spoke at press conferences, urged supporters to remain peaceful, and was involved in negotiating an aborted deal with Mayor Jim Watson to move some trucks out of residential areas downtown."

As for the asshats that tagged along if the organizers left the asshats would soon follow, the whole cut of the head analogy would prevaile here.

I am not a social media user but even i heard the media called Tamara the organizer even before the convoy set out.

With an army, police force and media to protect him. Please.

I didn't endorse anything, I just stated the fact that when angry people feel heard they get less angry. I use this principal regularly when my children argue. I give each one the chance to say their peace when they are done the anger is 10% of what it was and a conversation can happen.

Name a protest, right wrong or indifferent that was listened to without causing disruption? If a protest doesn't disrupt someone it just gets ignored.
Being tax paying citizens justifies their voice, if they can't get heard using normal means than I support their right to protest peacefully. Farmers protest by clogging the highways with Tractors and when the get to parliament they don't get called racists and get their accounts frozen.

The core group of trucker protesting the mandates were peaceful. The groups being idiots happen. The same has happened with the Palestine protesters, some want peace and I fully support their right to call for it. Some believe the Isrealites deserved Dec 7 and are calling for Jewish blood, that I cannot support. Don't paint them all with the same brush, that's very juvenile.

AFAIK PMJT refused to meet with anyone relating to the convoy. That is my basis for my posts.
That’s fine, I’m not here to convince you. But I’ve also spoken at length on all of this and don’t feel a need to repeat myself.
 
To me it’s clear that both the 4week Ottawa occupation and daily Team Hamas demonstrations in Jewish neighborhoods is due to the light touch police adopted after the Toronto G8 protests. Protesters feel emboldened to occupy a street in the nation’s capital indefinitely or spew anti-Semitic hate-speech when the law is not seen to be enforced.

Ottawa has the added bonus of poor command at OPS and three levels of government playing hot potato.

And since when are protest organizers entitled to a meeting with politicians? Lots of protests end at the end of the day without a meeting. It’s just an excuse for continued mass oppositional defiant disorder. As others have noted, there were so many purported leaders no one knew who spoke for who.

There seems to be some delusion going on that the Ottawa occupation was some sort of popular movement. Polling at the time showed over 70% of Canadians wanted the occupation to end and supported the (unjustified IMO) implementation of the EA to end it. You can’t get 70% of Canadians to agree that water is wet.

Anyone who thinks we have any leverage with the Yanks on who they let into their country is also delusional. Even if Trudeau wasn’t such a weak spineless twit, the Yanks would have told us to pound sand anyways. Canada has one overriding national interest: excellent relations with the US. Does anyone really think the federal government would sacrifice billions of dollars in trade across the border for a handful of unvaccinated truckers?
 
To me it’s clear that both the 4week Ottawa occupation and daily Team Hamas demonstrations in Jewish neighborhoods is due to the light touch police adopted after the Toronto G8 protests. Protesters feel emboldened to occupy a street in the nation’s capital indefinitely or spew anti-Semitic hate-speech when the law is not seen to be enforced.

The right to peaceful protest is one of the things that differentiates us from our enemies. Let them march and blow off steam... it will die down eventually.

And, anyways, I'm reveling in the irony ;)

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The right to peaceful protest is one of the things that differentiates us from our enemies. Let them march and blow off steam... it will die down eventually.

And, anyways, I'm reveling in the irony ;)

View attachment 82698
That works for most protests. They go home because it’s 4:20 and they got the munchies. But when they start to dig in or threaten Intifada on our Jewish neighbours, it’s time to switch tactics.

If liberals won’t enforce the law, the people will elect fascists who will.
 
That works for most protests. They go home because it’s 4:20 and they got the munchies. But when they start to dig in or threaten Intifada on our Jewish neighbours, it’s time to switch tactics.

If liberals won’t enforce the law, the people will elect fascists who will.
I’ve said this before: give one warning. Disperse or physical force including OC spray will be used.

Time to gently bust a few heads.

And I’m not sorry who it offends
 
I’ve said this before: give one warning. Disperse or physical force including OC spray will be used.

Time to gently bust a few heads.

And I’m not sorry who it offends
The problem with that approach is truncheons hitting white people is less likely to lead to problems than truncheons hitting brown people.

From that basic premise we see that policing isn't a "one size fits all" situation. The OPS and OPP had to balance "good order" against, "hitting "normal" people with clubs will be a problem".

As much as some downtown dwellers paint the Ottawa protests as unpopular, those of us living in the rough parts of the city saw a different side of things. There were no counter protesters in Vanier...
 
The problem with that approach is truncheons hitting white people is less likely to lead to problems than truncheons hitting brown people.

From that basic premise we see that policing isn't a "one size fits all" situation. The OPS and OPP had to balance "good order" against, "hitting "normal" people with clubs will be a problem".

As much as some downtown dwellers paint the Ottawa protests as unpopular, those of us living in the rough parts of the city saw a different side of things. There were no counter protesters in Vanier...
No one wants to hang out in Vanier. 😏

But my experience was that it got a lot more busy on the weekends, mostly from suburban Ottawans or Quebecers wanting to party. I didn’t know what the Patriotes flag was until that time.
 
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