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FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities

  • Thread starter Thread starter aesop081
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"Buffalos have been grounded for days waiting for a replacement windshield wiper motor.  Nobody wants to open a line to manufacture new buffalo windshield-wiper motors for a 25 unit order. So, alternative motors have to be found and the appropriate engineering has to be done to ensure that they don't compromise the airworthiness of the aircraft.....this takes time, money and valuable personnel. There are plenty of other components like the seemingly insignificant windshield wiper motor."

Take out Buff and insert 104 and you have the problems faced by maintainers at the end of the 104 program.
 
The only way to reduce costs is to eliminate the FWSAR service all together.....and I have yet to hear anyone advocating this.

I have heard people advocating the use of civilian contractors.  Personally I think it would be a step in the wrong direction for the Air Force however from a cost standpoint there would be some merit to contracting out the "mountainous rescue" duties currently covered by the Buff.  Not sure if there are any operators out West that are in a position to step up to the plate, but there must be somebody operating a Shorts 360 or some other twin with a ramp out that way.  Again, not my opinion, but it would reduce costs and keep some (albeit reduced) form of FWSAR.  Isn't the UK planning to use a civilian company for their rotary wing SAR?
 
News from Oz land - the  Headline writer is confused, should say  "over EADS Casa c-295

Last line in the story is key.



http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/03/21/212813/australian-government-gives-nod-to-alenia-over-c-27j-spartan.html

Australian government gives nod to Alenia over C-27J Spartan selection
By Justin Wastnage

The Australian government has given strong indications that it has selected the Alenia Aeronautica C-27J Spartan to fill its tactical transport requirements five years after the Italian company lost the Air 5190 light tactical airlifter project to EADS Casa’s C-295.

Senior sources within the defence department told flightglobal.com onboard a C-27J demonstration flight at the Australian International Air Show at Avalon airport in Melbourne, that a selection had already been made to replace the air force’s de Havilland Canada DHC-4 Caribou transport aircraft and that the deal may not be subject to competition. Senior sources within Alenia confirm that the Italian company has been selected for the renamed Air 8000 phase 2 project, but that a formal announcement is not expected until after the Australian federal election and subsequent defence budget.

The C-295 was selected ahead of the C-27J as the Caribou replacement but the programme was cancelled due to budgetary constraints related to Australian deployment in Timor-Leste (formerly East Timor). Interoperability with US and UK air forces’ Lockheed Martin C-130Js is understood to be the defining factor in the reversal.

 
Just saw this is the Jane's News Briefs:

Alenia and Boeing team up to replace Australia's DHC-4 Caribou

Italy's Alenia Aeronautica announced a teaming agreement with Boeing Australia on 21 March as part of its bid to meet the Royal Australian Air Force's (RAAF's) requirement to replace its ageing DHC-4 Caribou light transport aircraft.The Air 8000 requirement is a replacement for Air 5190, which was abandoned in July 2000 after EADS CASA's C-295 had been selected ahead of Alenia's C-27J. Air 5190 was terminated in anticipation of a White Paper released later in 2000 and because of operations in East Timor at the time.
[Jane's Defence Weekly - first posted to http://jdw.janes.com - 02 April 2007]

Would there be any merit in or possibility of a combined AUSCAN procurment?
 
According to what I have read on other sites, this story was generated as a follow-on to an Alenia press release advising that they were going to an airshow in Australia.  Until you see something from the Australia government, I would not get too excited.

The story behind it is that the US is currently involved in a Joint Cargo Aircraft (JCA) competition, involving the C-295 and C-27J.  The winner should be announced within the next two months.  The US has been canvassing nations such as Australia and Canada to promote others to buy whatever aircraft is selected, in order to have a larger "user pool".  Those discussions have reportedly not made any reference to either aircraft having an edge in the competition.  According to a story on Keypublishing, the follow-on story was generated by someone at the airshow making the statement that Australia would probably buy the aircraft selected as the winner of JCA.
 
The Americans have not yet announced a final decision, and it is doubtful that they would announce it as an aside at an Australian airshow. Both Raytheon and Alenia seem very certain that they will win the competition, obviously, one of them is wrong.
Once the decision has been made, and is announced, the USAF and US Army will be lobbying their allies to buy whatever product they have selected.  For information, the same thing happened when the US Coast Guard held its Deepwater competition for a Fixed Wing - announcements were made by third parties that did not represent the final decision.
 
As to the question of whether or not Canada would wish to buy into whatever the US chooses, that would probably depend on a number of factors, including cost, and delivery date - and I know that Canada is watching the JCA results.  At the same time, the Air Force is broke and lacks funding for the programs that they have already committed to, which has reportedly resulted in a massive cutback in flying hours for some fleets starting on 1 April.  Should be interesting.
 
This is at the high-end for a FWSAR contender but the more interesting part is who is thinking about it - Bombardier's direct competitor Embraer - and this statement: "Our analyses indicate that there is a potential market for this type of aircraft worldwide, especially to replace older models that will reach the end of their useful life over the coming decade,"

If Embraer can build a suitable contender in a decade long time frame - perhaps Bombardier could consider building something similar - something that the CF might actually want to buy.

Embraer Has Military Transport Aircraft Under Study
 
 
(Source: Empresa Brasileira de Aeronautica S.A.; issued April 19, 2007)
 
 
 

The jet-powered airlifter being mulled by Embraer could well find a sizeable market thanks to its speed and payload combination. (Embraer photo)SAO JOSE DOS CAMPOS, Brazil --- Embraer confirmed, at a press conference held today, during the Latin America Aero & Defense (LAAD) conference, in Rio de Janeiro, that it has been studying the possible development of a military transport aircraft. 

If it is actually launched, the EMBRAER C-390, as it is called, will be the heaviest airplane ever produced by the Company and will be able to transport up to 19 tons (41,888 pounds) of cargo. The new project will incorporate a number of technological solutions developed for the successful EMBRAER 190 commercial jet. 

As a medium-sized military transport jet, the EMBRAER C-390 will have an ample cabin, equipped with a rear ramp for transporting a wide range of types of cargo, including wheeled armored vehicles, and will have the most modern loading and unloading systems. 

The new jet may be refueled in flight, as well as be used to refuel other aircraft, in flight and on the ground. The cargo cabin will allow configurations for transporting the wounded or sick, on Medical Evacuation (MEDEVAC) missions. The technical advances of the EMBRAER C-390 include fly- by-wire, which lowers the work load of pilots, with the resulting increased safety, and operating on short and unpaved runways, without the need of ground support. 

"Our analyses indicate that there is a potential market for this type of aircraft worldwide, especially to replace older models that will reach the end of their useful life over the coming decade," said Luiz Carlos Aguiar, Embraer's Executive Vice-President, Defense and Government Market. "We are now expanding the studies and looking for the best use of the technological solutions employed in the EMBRAER 170/190 family. They will be carefully adapted to the specific needs of the military operators. This is a good example of spin-off and how Embraer's long-term vision is focused on customer satisfaction." 

Aguiar added, "Based on Embraer's broad experience in leading successful programs, we have discussed with other specialized mainline companies jointly sharing the development, which should follow international best practices for defense programs." 

In good time, Embraer will release more information regarding this study, in order to keep the public informed on Company decisions. 

-ends- 

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi-bin/client/modele.pl?session=dae.16851726.1133540294.Q5BzxsOa9dUAAHeSPdQ&modele=jdc_34
 
The payload puts it in the C-130J class.  And lots of other C-130s will be wearing ten years from now.
http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?fsID=92

Mark
Ottawa
 
It's also a turbine aircraft - vice turbo-prop.  FWSAR needs the acceleration and responsiveness of a prop, not the spool-up of a high bypass turbine.
 
I wasn't particularly endorsing the Embraer design - just the fact that they are looking at the market place, determining a need that includes the needs of the military community and proposing a workable solution based on their capabilities that they might be able to deliver in a workable time frame.  As opposed to trying to convince people to buy things that they produce but don't match the client's needs.

It seems to me that if Embraer can produce a 20 ton turbine to compete with the 20 ton C130 turboprop which competes with the 30 ton A400M turboprop and the 10 ton C27J and C295 turboprops then perhaps Bombardier might be able to combine with Pratt and Whitney to create a 10 ton turboprop that would meet CF requirements first and be able to compete in that field.  The market place seems to have determined that all of the other contenders have some deficiencies: too large, too expensive to buy and operate for FWSAR/TacSpt, too small, too slow, insufficiently rugged, inability to fly low and slow.......

Maybe now would be a good time to find out if Bombardier can work with the CF to produce a successor to the Buffalo - with the understanding that if they can't come up with a solution that both meets the needs of the market and the CF then the Government won't subsidize it and the CF won't buy it.  R&D support money from Industry Canada - not DND or PWGSC - to match Bombardier's own funding.

I am merely suggesting that if Embraer, a similar company to Bombardier, can contemplate such a project then Bombardier (with PWC) should be able to manage a similar project.
 
http://www.canada.com/components/print.aspx?id=4447dd2a-6b78-4123-85c4-f432926ad3cb

Afghan war leaves Forces unable to buy new rescue planes
Strapped for cash, military 'shelves' $1.3-billion purchase
 
David ********
The Ottawa Citizen


Thursday, April 26, 2007


The Canadian military's program to replace its 40-year-old search-and-rescue aircraft has been sidelined because money is being funnelled for more urgent equipment needed into the Afghanistan war, defence industry officials and sources say.

The $1.3-billion program to purchase a fleet of new fixed-wing search-and-rescue aircraft was named as the No. 1 equipment priority in 2003 for the Canadian Forces.

But the project has since been derailed by the urgent purchases of hundreds of millions of dollars worth of gear for Afghanistan, the $650-million order for Leopard tanks and the multibillion-dollar purchases of C-17 and C-130J transport aircraft and Chinook helicopters.

Chief of the Defence Staff Gen. Rick Hillier, as well as Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor, have pointed out that the C-17, C-130J, Chinook helicopters and tanks are needed for the military's ongoing overseas missions, particularly in Afghanistan.

A defence source confirmed the procurement budget has been stretched by the recent equipment purchases to the point that there is little money available for the search-and-rescue project.

Even some army equipment projects, such as a plan to purchase a bunker-busting missile, have been delayed because of the priority for Afghanistan-related gear.

Aerospace industry officials have been told the search-and-rescue aircraft program, while not dead, will be stalled for several years.

"What they're saying is that it's shelved," said Randy Price, a retired colonel and search-and-rescue pilot. "They don't have any money."

Mr. Price, the former wing commander at Canadian Forces Base Comox, B.C., from which search-and-rescue Buffalo aircraft operate, said the military is reluctant to spend money on equipment not seen as having a direct combat role.

Mr. Price now works as a consultant for EADS Canada, a company that hopes to sell the Canadian Forces the C-295 aircraft for search-and-rescue missions.

The message about lack of money has also reached Alenia North America, the aircraft firm offering Canada the C-27J Spartan for search and rescue.

"We understand the Afghanistan participation has in some way (prompted) the government to give some importance to other programs such as the C-17 or the C-130J or the Chinook, or the tanks," said Giuseppe Giordo, president of Alenia North America.

The purchase of the 15 search-and-rescue planes was supposed to replace the 40-year-old Buffalo aircraft on the west coast as well as the aging Hercules transport planes also being used for such missions.

Mr. Price said it is becoming increasingly difficult to find parts for the aging Buffalo since suppliers have gone out of business over the decades. In some cases, military personnel have had to build new parts for the planes. When he was wing commander at CFB Comox in 2004 his staff had to rush out to purchase brake pads for the aircraft since the original supplier was shutting down.

Defence officials, however, dispute claims the Afghanistan mission has delayed any equipment project.

"While the Department has absorbed some of the costs of the Afghanistan mission, both for equipment acquisition and operating expenses, these funds have been sourced from the overall defence budget and it would be difficult to identify any particular initiative or acquisition that has been affected or delayed," said Canadian Forces spokeswoman Lieut. Carole Brown.

"Certainly, no project has been targeted as a source of funds for Afghanistan."

Military officials also say the Canadian Forces is in a significant period of transformation as well as adjusting strategies and capabilities to meet future operational needs. Defence officials used the example of the Leopard tank purchase to illustrate such changes.

"While the timelines associated with the acquisition of a new (search and rescue) aircraft may be affected by this process, the CF is evaluating options and taking action to ensure that fixed-wing search-and-rescue service is maintained without interruption until the new capability is fielded," added Lieut. Brown.

Mr. Price said he believes it will take several incidents in which the military can't respond to a major search-and-rescue call before the government is forced to proceed with the program.

Mr. Giordo argues that since aircraft such as the C-130J won't be delivered for at least three more years, there should still be money in the military procurement budget now for the search-and-rescue aircraft purchase.

In September 2003 then-chief of the defence staff Gen. Ray Henault announced the project was the top equipment priority for the military. In the spring of 2004 the Liberal government said it was fast-tracking the project. Military officials said they would approach industry in September 2004 to begin the competition. The first aircraft was supposed to be delivered sometime in 2006.

Military officials are still working on the statement of requirement for the aircraft, something they have been doing for more than three years now.

© The Ottawa Citizen 2007







 
Well... FWIW, if the 1st 13 pages of this thread mean anything, neither the C27J nor the C295 meet exactly what the CF is looking for to look after SAR.

Shelving the project for a wee bit might allow for some tech developments to come on line and make either (or another Mfgs product) a better fit.

stay tuned
 
I hope you are right. When I see something considered urgent originally suddenly being shelved, it means politics. I'm willing to bet that if one Buffalo thunders in - and having seen three Hercs personally do just that I really hope not - the money just as suddenly will become available. 
 
Interesting to see army.ca poster Rescue Randy mentioned prominently in the article, and mentioned as a consultant for EDAS Canada.
 
Ottawa Citizen said:
The Canadian military's program to replace its 40-year-old search-and-rescue aircraft has been sidelined because money is being funnelled for more urgent equipment needed into the Afghanistan war, defence industry officials and sources say.

The $1.3-billion program to purchase a fleet of new fixed-wing search-and-rescue aircraft was named as the No. 1 equipment priority in 2003 for the Canadian Forces.

But the project has since been derailed by the urgent purchases of hundreds of millions of dollars worth of gear for Afghanistan, the $650-million order for Leopard tanks and the multibillion-dollar purchases of C-17 and C-130J transport aircraft and Chinook helicopters.

Chief of the Defence Staff Gen. Rick Hillier, as well as Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor, have pointed out that the C-17, C-130J, Chinook helicopters and tanks are needed for the military's ongoing overseas missions, particularly in Afghanistan.

A defence source confirmed the procurement budget has been stretched by the recent equipment purchases to the point that there is little money available for the search-and-rescue project.

Even some army equipment projects, such as a plan to purchase a bunker-busting missile, have been delayed because of the priority for Afghanistan-related gear.

Aerospace industry officials have been told the search-and-rescue aircraft program, while not dead, will be stalled for several years.

"What they're saying is that it's shelved," said Randy Price, a retired colonel and search-and-rescue pilot. "They don't have any money."

Mr. Price, the former wing commander at Canadian Forces Base Comox, B.C., from which search-and-rescue Buffalo aircraft operate, said the military is reluctant to spend money on equipment not seen as having a direct combat role.

Mr. Price now works as a consultant for EADS Canada, a company that hopes to sell the Canadian Forces the C-295 aircraft for search-and-rescue missions.

The message about lack of money has also reached Alenia North America, the aircraft firm offering Canada the C-27J Spartan for search and rescue.

"We understand the Afghanistan participation has in some way (prompted) the government to give some importance to other programs such as the C-17 or the C-130J or the Chinook, or the tanks," said Giuseppe Giordo, president of Alenia North America.

The purchase of the 15 search-and-rescue planes was supposed to replace the 40-year-old Buffalo aircraft on the west coast as well as the aging Hercules transport planes also being used for such missions.

Mr. Price said it is becoming increasingly difficult to find parts for the aging Buffalo since suppliers have gone out of business over the decades. In some cases, military personnel have had to build new parts for the planes. When he was wing commander at CFB Comox in 2004 his staff had to rush out to purchase brake pads for the aircraft since the original supplier was shutting down.

Defence officials, however, dispute claims the Afghanistan mission has delayed any equipment project

"While the Department has absorbed some of the costs of the Afghanistan mission, both for equipment acquisition and operating expenses, these funds have been sourced from the overall defence budget and it would be difficult to identify any particular initiative or acquisition that has been affected or delayed," said Canadian Forces spokeswoman Lieut. Carole Brown.

"Certainly, no project has been targeted as a source of funds for Afghanistan."

Military officials also say the Canadian Forces is in a significant period of transformation as well as adjusting strategies and capabilities to meet future operational needs. Defence officials used the example of the Leopard tank purchase to illustrate such changes.

While the timelines associated with the acquisition of a new (search and rescue) aircraft may be affected by this process, the CF is evaluating options and taking action to ensure that fixed-wing search-and-rescue service is maintained without interruption until the new capability is fielded," added Lieut. Brown.

Mr. Price said he believes it will take several incidents in which the military can't respond to a major search-and-rescue call before the government is forced to proceed with the program.

Mr. Giordo argues that since aircraft such as the C-130J won't be delivered for at least three more years, there should still be money in the military procurement budget now for the search-and-rescue aircraft purchase.

In September 2003 then-chief of the defence staff Gen. Ray Henault announced the project was the top equipment priority for the military. In the spring of 2004 the Liberal government said it was fast-tracking the project. Military officials said they would approach industry in September 2004 to begin the competition. The first aircraft was supposed to be delivered sometime in 2006.

Military officials are still working on the statement of requirement for the aircraft, something they have been doing for more than three years now.

© The Ottawa Citizen 2007

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=4447dd2a-6b78-4123-85c4-f432926ad3cb&k=42830
 
Hmm. Well, I must say that search and rescue planes would be of no use to us if we were fighting the war against terrorism on OUR soil. Better to wait it out then compromise anything in A-Stan we might need.

My 2 cents,
Cheers
 
Have to agree with Twitch on this one, as much as we need the SAR planes, operational requirements are clearly dictacting what is more important, and taking a higher priority. It's unfortunate but just the way it is I suppose.
 
Or this whole thing could be that what was offered was not what they wanted.  A lot of the controversy in this and other threads was the shortcomings of this plane over that plane...what if nothing offered would have worked properly.

Backing away from everyone, drawing up specs that DO the job might be the easiest way out of this quagmire, and just start over.
 
As an interim solution, once the new Hercs start arriving could the old Hercs be cascaded down to replace the older Hercs & Buffalo in the SAR role?
 
MCG said:
As an interim solution, once the new Hercs start arriving could the old Hercs be cascaded down to replace the older Hercs & Buffalo in the SAR role?

Not for very long........the "E"s are done....the "H"s arent far behind.
 
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