FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities

[McG]

FMR,
I have concluded that I should not waste my time considering your contributions as you do prefer exaggeration/distortion over the use of facts and logic in an argument.  It proves nothing that there were two crashes 8-9 years ago during the early stages of the Osprey program.  Through your thorough and profound analytical process, one would conclude that all air travel is unsafe.  In fact, when one looks at the number of pers killed at sea in Apr 1912 then we would also conclude that sea travel should never be attempted and lets not get started on the horrors of automobile travel.

... others make take a more intelligent approach.  Maybe there is relevance in the fact that engineering development work continued for a handful more years & lessons from the crashes were integrated into the improved designs.  Maybe there is relevance in the fact that the V-22 has now passed all its airworthiness testing.  It might be worth noting that there are considerably more V-22 with considerably greater flying hours today than back in those early days, and despite this vast increase in aggregate flying hours there are not the catastrophic crashes that your conclusion would have us expect to see.

 

[ringo]

Normally I would advocate DND purchase the best value for there money wether purchased here or foreign, however with the drastic turn in the economy I feel that DND dollars must be used were possible to support Canadian industry.
1st Viking to rebuild existing Buff's.
2nd Viking build new Buff's, numbers to be decided by DND.
3rd Viking new Twin Otters to replace existing aircraft.

Since DND is replacing 28 Herc's with 17 Herc's and 4 C-17's, is it not possible that some of the younger Herc's in DND inventory could be used in SAR role?

 

[aesop081]

is it not possible that some of the younger Herc's in DND inventory could be used in SAR role?

Even the younger Hercs are geriatrics.

 

[Zoomie]

however with the drastic turn in the economy

Anyone seen evidence of this drastic turn - apart from what we read in the papers?  Christmas sales were as strong as ever, the stock market hasn't tanked and people are still buying homes.

Dropping a couple of billion dollars into an inflated, encumbered vehicle industry does not equal a recession.  Stop paying the bolt tightener $76/hour and maybe the big three will actually make some money.

Making a decision today based on a couple of possible lean years - could potentially put us in worst straights in the future.  Remember, we are going to keep these aircraft for the next thirty years - let's choose the right machine for the job.

 

[Loachman]

So Loachman if they're not based on the Canadian made, they're based on German made,the  first "VTOL" aircraft called Weserflug during the end of world war two (1944-1945).

Another tilt-wing versus tilt-rotor design.

Besides, you're still confusing the outer appearance with what is truly important: the technology on the inside.

For my part i'm for the C-27J, and for a new production line of DHC-5 Buffalo.

We don't care. You do not get a vote.

And that is, clearly, a Good Thing (TM).

 

[Nfld Sapper]

is it not possible that some of the younger Herc's in DND inventory could be used in SAR role?

Even the younger Hercs are geriatrics.

Like CDN Aviatoar said, The extended range C-130E model entered service in 1962 and the C-130H model initial deliveries began in 1964

 

[geo]

... then there are the few extras we ordered after loosing a few to accidents & such

 

[ringo]

2 Herc's entered service Mar 1985
2 more Nov 1986
5 Herc's with tanker kit 1989
2 1997 may have been last two off production line?
Compared with the rest of Canada's Herc's these aircraft are younger, 2 IIRC were former Kuwait aircraft so are older than service
entry dates.
What will become of the younger Herc's when all C-130J's and C-17's are in service?

 

[aesop081]

2 Herc's entered service Mar 1985

24 years old........geriatric

2 more Nov 1986

23 years old....geriatric

5 Herc's with tanker kit 1989

20 years old.......severly worn out

2 1997 may have been last two off production line?

Oh wow...a whoping 2 aircrafts.

 

[McG]

Normally I would advocate DND purchase the best value for there money wether purchased here or foreign, however with the drastic turn in the economy I feel that DND dollars must be used were possible to support Canadian industry.

The Industrial regional benefits program could achieve this even if we buy non-Canadian.  A mandatory part of a bidder's contract proposal would be a plan to spend a specific dollar value of new money in the Canadian economy (and not necessarily directly related to our aircraft purchase).

Using defence procurement funds to build-up an industry which cannot remain self-sustaining at that capacity after the contract is a big gamble that may not turn out to benefit the economy.

 

[FMR]

Another tilt-wing versus tilt-rotor design.

Besides, you're still confusing the outer appearance with what is truly important: the technology on the inside.

We don't care. You do not get a vote.

And that is, clearly, a Good Thing (TM).

it's the same invention but one is much more simple the other one is much more difficult to build..that sound like a electric car and fossil fuel car...same invention but one use complex engine the other one use piston engine much more simple. And "you" don't mean everyone on this forum, in general people agreed about C-27J and DHC-5 production line,if you not agree it's your choice.

 

[Edward Campbell]

... And "you" don't mean everyone on this forum ...

By "you" he means almost all of us who are not members of a small, select group of seasoned military personnel - mostly pilots and aerospace engineers, engineers and bureaucrats who understand how to formulate operational requirements, translate those requirements into reasonable contract deliverables and then manage multi-billion dollar projects.

Thankfully you, FMR, and I are not in that small group but Loachman could be, in a pinch.


Edit: typos

 

[kj_gully]

As someone who works in the Buff and loves it, I can say, that the only reason I would prefer a new "tatonka" would be nostalgia. The old "she's good in the mountains" only rings true when we are working down low in them. Any time we are trying to get over them in a hurry, to render aid to anywhere other than Coastal BC, it can be a royal pain to be tethered to an oxygen mask. the buff is box shaped in cross section, and basic geometry states that rectangles aren't stong enough to be pressurized. (maybe its physics, or some other science, but for sure you can't pressurize the buff.) SAR will be different when we get the new plane. I hope it is the C27, for the reasons I have stated way back pages ago when i first started to think we might someday get a new plane. This Viking/ Bombadeer conglomeration is not going to help us find the right plane. it is only going to hurt, and no doubt contribute to muddying and lengthening the procurement process. My planes are worn out. Totally worn out.

 

[YZT580]

KJ, I don't disagree with your basic argument but I wonder if there isn't another solution more appropriate to Canada and our limited resources.  From all sources, it would appear that there are two opposing requirement for the S & R fleet.  One that is suited for operating around the coastal region of B.C. and in the Canadian North where runways are extremely weight dependent and one for the east coast and the rest of Canada.  Rather than introducing a new, albeit beautiful, and additional type (the Spartan) would maintaining either a new or rebuilt fleet of Buffaloes for the west coast and an increased inventory of C130s for the rest of Canada not make greater sense?  Granted 4 engines cost more than 2 to run but the aircraft would then be fully interchangeable with the others in the transport fleet.  In addition, the Buffaloe is eminently suited to provide transportation into those areas of the world that seem to require our assistance the most; namely Africa.

 

[Zoomie]

What you have described is exactly what we have now - a mixed fleet.  We are moving towards a homogenized fleet of identical aircraft with interchangeable parts, crews and responsibilities.  FWSAR does not deploy to Africa - nor will it ever.  Every strip that the Buffalo flies in to up North, so does the Hercules (with a few non-SAR exceptions).

STOL is fun on the Buffalo - but hardly ever used (if at all) operationally.

Like KJ eloquently said - the old girl is a great west coast machine - but as soon as we need to head into the interior we seriously handicap ourselves with the lack of pressurization and power.

 

[YZT580]

By your own argument then, a larger purchase of Hercs would be better than a purchase of Spartans, augmented in the short range by Helicopters correct?

 

[Zoomie]

Sure... but why more Hercs?  We are trying to move to a more economical platform while not sacrificing airspeed and range.  Two fuel efficient turbo-props produce similar results to what we are getting out of our Hercs. 

 

[Don2wing]

  Not to get anyone's shirt in a knot here is a press release on Bombardier 415MP:

  Bombardier Delivers First Bombardier 415MP Amphibious Aircraft to Malaysia
January 23, 2009 — Montréal
Aerospace

Today, Bombardier Aerospace announced that Malaysia’s coast guard agency, the Malaysian Maritime Enforcement Agency (MMEA), has taken delivery of the first of two Bombardier 415MP amphibious aircraft ordered by the Malaysian government in June 2008. The Malaysian government is the launch customer in Asia for the specialized Bombardier 415MP aircraft.

Present at an official ceremony held in Subang Jaya, Malaysia, was Datuk Seri Najib, Honourable Deputy Prime Minister of Malaysia; Datuk Amdan, Director General, MMEA; and Mr. Michel Bourgeois, President, Specialized and Amphibious Aircraft, Bombardier Aerospace.

A variant of the rugged Bombardier 415 amphibious aircraft – the only aircraft specifically designed for aerial firefighting – the Bombardier 415MP amphibious aircraft will be modified for maritime surveillance capabilities to meet the specialized needs of the MMEA. The first Bombardier 415MP aircraft delivered to Malaysia will be equipped with a state-of-the-art surveillance suite that includes two side-looking airborne radars, one forward-looking infrared radar, an airborne maritime surveillance system and other avionics and communications equipment.

“Bombardier Aerospace is proud to deliver its first Bombardier 415MP aircraft to Malaysia.  We are confident this hardworking aircraft, with its multi-purpose capabilities, will prove a worthy tool in Malaysia’s efforts to patrol its extensive waterways and to enhance its search and rescue missions,” said Michel Bourgeois, President, Specialized and Amphibious Aircraft, Bombardier Aerospace.  “The aircraft’s ability to fly at low speed and low altitude with great maneuverability, and to execute direct interventions on water, makes it an ideal aircraft for coastal patrol missions. It is a very capable and cost-effective aircraft, able to carry out a multitude of specialized missions that previously required dedicated vessels and aircraft.”

The multi-purpose Bombardier 415MP aircraft can be used in a variety of specialized missions such as search and rescue, environmental protection, coastal patrol and transportation. It is fitted with sophisticated sensors to locate and identify vessels, people in distress and pollutants.

Since delivery of the first Bombardier 415 aircraft in 1994, Bombardier Aerospace has delivered 69 Bombardier 415 aircraft, including three Bombardier 415MP aircraft, to Croatia, France, Greece, Italy, Ontario, Québec and Spain, with 42 aircraft in operation in the Mediterranean region alone.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

You do realize that the 415 Series of Aircraft is generally used as a water bomber.

415 Series aircraft.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

SAR and Law Enforcement Configuration

Performs direct water rescues
Specially designed rigid-hulled inflatable jet boat for sea rescues
Good dash speed (180 knots) and endurance (6.5 hours)
Precision navigation and powerful communications equipment for detecting and locating distressed vessels and persons
Accommodates up to six stretchers
State-of-the-art sensors (FLIR, SAR, nose radar)
Includes complete SAR kits
Sea State 3 capability

Utility Transport

No runway required for optimal operating flexibility
Access via unpaved runways, lakes, rivers and seas
Transport personnel and equipment between land and sea at greater ranges and speeds than helicopters
Excellent low-level, low-speed handling and manoeuvrability (105-knot drop speed)
Remote operations with minimal maintenance and support requirements
2,903-kilogram (6,400-pound) cargo payload