FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities

[Eye In The Sky]

Yup.  We have more head space than that on the '140 and I get nervous when we're down low, riding a decent sea state;  I usually have one hand on the overhead rail just for insurance.  I'm not walking around with all the kit on you guys have...I feel for the folks who have to work the back end of the 295.

Forget the crappy Wx days, just normal moderate mech can be enough to deal with sometimes if you're not in a seat/strapped in. 

 

[Zoomie]

We don’t have our crews walking around the cabin during turbulent flying conditions.  They are usually strapped into their spotter positions.  The cabin height is almost the same as what Cormorant crews experience in the back, the STs will be fine.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

One of them seems to be 'cringing' from the video.  ;D

 

[Retired and Broken]

We don’t have our crews walking around the cabin during turbulent flying conditions.

I've been up an walking around in turbulent conditions more times than I can count. I'll admit though, it is usually (not always though) during a tasking thus 'justified'.

The cabin height is almost the same as what Cormorant crews experience in the back, the STs will be fine.

The Cormorant cabin isn't as round as the 295. The 295 looks like it'll get more difficult to work in the more one strays off the center line of the aircraft. Plus working in a  SAR fixed wing cabin is quite different than working on a rotary wing so not totally comparable.

I suppose it doesn't really matter as that's what we have. More padding for the neck claims when the time comes.

 

[cld617]

The cabin height is almost the same as what Cormorant crews experience in the back, the STs will be fine.

Tell them that after they've been throwing thousands of lbs of flares out the back on a search while hunched over.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

We don’t have our crews walking around the cabin during turbulent flying conditions.  They are usually strapped into their spotter positions.  The cabin height is almost the same as what Cormorant crews experience in the back, the STs will be fine.

After thought and not to pick fly shit out of pepper...but don't spotters rotate every XX minutes?  I've not done as much SAR as SAR Sqn folks do, but I have done some (maritime and overland)...folks still have to move around.

 

[YZT580]

6 hours in transit, someone is going to have to hit the head.  You can't prepare for a jump without standing up

 

[Zoomie]

I'll say it again - our STs and crews will be fine.  We take what we have been given and adapt.  The Buff and the Herc are not SAR platforms - we adapted and dealt with what we had.

Nobody on these forums have any idea of what the future of FWSAR will be - I'm currently flying the Buff and I have no idea.  I am happy to have a new platform from which we will carry out Canada's SAR mandate. 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I'll say it again - our STs and crews will be fine.

Maybe it will "be fine";  I don't think that is the same as "being ideal'...I see potential for head/neck injuries from (1) the lack of headroom, and (2) my experience flying mid and tail section in FW aircraft.

Will the 295 do the job?  I'm sure it will, and SAR crews and Sqn's will adjust and employ it to the max capability.

My overall point though, is the Spartan was the better platform IMO and would have been a better choice for FWSAR.  I know...water under the bridge long ago, and if I was in or going to the SAR community, I'd want to focus on 'looking ahead' not over my shoulder.

Curious;  how much smaller is the working end of the Buff (width, height) compared to the 295?  There was a comparison to the Corm earlier...I've flown in those.  I've never been in a Buff.  I've not been up close to a 295 yet, but I have a 235.

 

[Zoomie]

Categorically - every operator of the C-27J have expressed buyers remourse and it has enjoyed a 10% serviceability rate.  It was a close save that we aligned with Airbus and not Alenia.  The USAF dumped their fleet without shedding a tear.  We dodged a lemon.

Working space is at a premium, but, like I said, future SAR is not what we have been doing.  We’re moving away from our current system of building up bundles in the back and moving towards a containerized approach.  The toboggan is going away.  We won’t throw as many LUU’s since we will all be under NODs and have an electronic eye.

There will be plenty of complainers, especially from the 130 fleet.

 

[Spencer100]

Just a point, I think the dumping of the USAF's C27J was more of a intermural fight between Army and USAF.  The original order was placed by the ARMY then put with the USAF.  Keywest agreement and all.

 

[YZT580]

Just a point, I think the dumping of the USAF's C27J was more of a intermural fight between Army and USAF.  The original order was placed by the ARMY then put with the USAF.  Keywest agreement and all.

Sounds very similar to the Buffalo, Caribou saga.

 

[Retired and Broken]

Working space is at a premium, but, like I said, future SAR is not what we have been doing.

This I agree with. In fact, I'd be willing to take it a step further and question whether dedicated FWSAR(in it's current form) is necessary at all...but that is a whole other giant can of worms that really doesn't matter.

The toboggan is going away.

Sure, but there will still be manouvering of heavy equipment happening in the back. Hell simply getting ready for confined area para is a pain in the best of cabin spaces.

We won’t throw as many LUU’s since we will all be under NODs and have an electronic eye.

Some of the longest nights throwing flares are generally for other SAR agencies. I would wager that isn't about to change.

There will be plenty of complainers, especially from the 130 fleet.

This complainer's opinion comes from  extensive time working in the back of all four SAR platforms. Ergonomics matters for us. (Don't get me started on the 146 ;D)

Anyways, like I said earlier, it really doesn't matter at this point....it is what it is. The 295 has significant advantages over our laughably old FWSAR fleet that is to the benefit of our clients. Ultimately, this is what matters the most.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Categorically - every operator of the C-27J have expressed buyers remourse and it has enjoyed a 10% serviceability rate.  It was a close save that we aligned with Airbus and not Alenia.  The USAF dumped their fleet without shedding a tear.  We dodged a lemon.

Well...that I didn't know.  I'd heard the RAAF was pretty happy with them and never dug deeper. 

That electronic eye will be a help in some cases, and in others, it will be a bigger job to explain to people it's caps/lims.  I recall being called in on R12 to 'do an IR search for a PIW'...who'd been in the water for 24ish hours.  :facepalm:  From a sensor op POV....it is going to be a nice piece of kit to crew.  The rollout plan doesn't match up with my QOL *stuff* so I'm off to different pastures, but I know people are looking forward to the chance to change fleets.

 

[Sub_Guy]

Aren’t we getting Kestrel (or something similar) on the FWSAR bird?

This would greatly enhance the detection capability of our newest toy.

http://www.sentientvision.com/products/kestrel-maritime/#1453962295872-a8e957ea-f104

 

[dimsum]

That electronic eye will be a help in some cases, and in others, it will be a bigger job to explain to people it's caps/lims.

Simple.  Take a paper towel roll, put it over one eye so that you can see only through it, close the other one, and try to go about your day-to-day business.

Same for RPAs.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

This would greatly enhance the detection capability of our newest toy if it is properly embedded into the IMS/DMS architecture and not ran on Laptop #4.

Just had to add a little bit on that...Flush!  Brush!  Flush!  8)

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Simple.  Take a paper towel roll, put it over one eye so that you can see only through it, close the other one, and try to go about your day-to-day business.

Same for RPAs.

Truth!  Then try to get them to understand IR sees temp differences...so things that have been in the water for 24 hours are more than likely around the same temp as the water...I suggest we start getting folks in our own fleet to understand this (looking at you, Pilots and WOps DutyOs).  ;D

 

[Good2Golf]

Of course, you meant to say “an adjustable, multi-diameter paper towel roll...”

 

[Kirkhill]

RAAF article on the C27J

Interesting take on maintenance being handled at the squadron level - including battlefield damage repair (potentially)
Apparently happy that the engines are common to their Hercs.

https://australianaviation.com.au/2018/08/a-different-beast-the-raafs-c-27j-spartan/


Meanwhile - in Britain

A row erupted at a recent Nato conference over the RAF's new £2.6billion transporter planes as it has emerged engine problems mean just two of 20-strong fleet are able to fly at any one time.

The delay in bringing into service the new A400M plane for the RAF and other partner nations led to a major disagreement between Airbus, the aircraft manufacturer, and Nato Ministers.

Stuart Andrew, the MoD’s Minister for Procurement, said that after an “extremely robust meeting” the problems with the A400M aircraft should be fixed by next year. 

Concerns have been raised over the new aircraft since its inception in 2003. A recent Defence Select Committee was told that engineering staff at RAF Brize Norton called the aircraft “a dog” and that on occasion only two out of the fleet of 20 aircraft were serviceable.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/07/10/raf-nato-row-totally-unacceptable-engine-problems-keep-26bn/