• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Georgia and the Russian invasions/annexations/Lebensraum (2008 & 2015)

Flanker said:
I would appreciate, if someone could explain what last tribal skimishes in Ingushetia have to do with Russian police, Russian politics and in particular with the war in Ossetia.  ::)
I do not see any link other than the same old refrain "all is bad in Russia" the author repeats all over the forum.

Flanker just so that you are aware, JackD currently resides in an area that was controlled by the former Soviet Union, and is well aware of the problems caused by that former regime, based upon first hand experiences.

I, for one, know Jack personally, having served with him many, many moons ago. I am more than willing to listen to his point of view, and believe him over other posters on this forum.

My .02 pfennigs anyhow.
 
Rodahn said:
Flanker just so that you are aware, JackD currently resides in an area that was controlled by the former Soviet Union, and is well aware of the problems caused by that former regime, based upon first hand experiences.

I, for one, know Jack personally, having served with him many, many moons ago. I am more than willing to listen to his point of view, and believe him over other posters on this forum.

My .02 pfennigs anyhow.

Ditto, on all counts.
 
Rodahn said:
Flanker just so that you are aware, JackD currently resides in an area that was controlled by the former Soviet Union, and is well aware of the problems caused by that former regime, based upon first hand experiences.

Do you mean just by living in Poland anyone becomes an expert with "first hand experience" on Russia's internal affairs?
I respect other opinions but his phrases like "Everything Russia touches they destroy" sound pretty much russofobic to me and compromise all credibility of the gentleman.
 
Flanker said:
Do you mean just by living in Poland anyone becomes an expert with "first hand experience" on Russia's internal affairs?
I respect other opinions but his phrases like "Everything Russia touches they destroy" sound pretty much russofobic to me and compromise all credibility of the gentleman.

::)

Of course you have much closer experiences with the current Russian Regime to justify your biases.  We have to blindly kowtow to your better judgement.
 
George Wallace said:
::)

Of course you have much closer experiences with the current Russian Regime to justify your biases.  We have to blindly kowtow to your better judgement.

It is up to you to decide. I would prefer we discuss facts not fobias.
 
Flanker said:
It is up to you to decide. I would prefer we discuss facts not fobias.

It seems we are, but you insist we have phobias and denounce any facts that run counter to your perceived views on Russia.
 
Flanker said:
It is up to you to decide. I would prefer we discuss facts not fobias.

do you perchance mean "Phobia's"? In any event, the territories of the former Soviet bloc are, if I'm not mistaken from the the reports that I have read such as http://countrystudies.us/russia/25.htm are in dire need of environmental clean up. If the habitat is not safe for man nor beast, then I would refer to the act as destruction, would you not?

Edit to add: George beat me to it....
 
George Wallace said:
It seems we are, but you insist we have phobias and denounce any facts that run counter to your perceived views on Russia.
This works in the both sides, Georges  ;)
 
Flanker said:
Do you mean just by living in Poland anyone becomes an expert with "first hand experience" on Russia's internal affairs?

It certainly puts one more in tune with how Russia treats in former sattelites and neighbours.

Where exactly do you live ?
 
Rodahn said:
In any event, the territories of the former Soviet bloc are, if I'm not mistaken from the the reports that I have read such as http://countrystudies.us/russia/25.htm are in dire need of environmental clean up. If the habitat is not safe for man nor beast, then I would refer to the act as destruction, would you not?


Look at the statistics, it is not so bad as someone would.
http://www.nationmaster.com/country/rs-russia/env-environment
Compare to US and China


Can I say that "Everything US touch they destroy" due to leading CO2 emission?
Or that Canada is the world's evil due to not signing the Kyoto protocol?
This is what I call phobias or a biased opinion (thanks for spelling by the way)

 
Flanker said:
Can I say that "Everything US touch they destroy" due to leading CO2 emission?
Or that Canada is the world's evil due to not signing the Kyoto protocol?
This is what I call phobias or a biased opinion (thanks for spelling by the way

You can say it all you want, just because you say so, does not make it so.....
 
Flanker, take into consideration the massive geographical size of Russia, and how much of that land is unpopulated.
The US isn't clean, no.  But neither are the populated regions of Russia.  And that is the same almost everywhere in the world, the places with the least human interference are the best off.

Compare the number of people per square kilometer in the three nations you mentioned, and you may find out why those numbers look good to Russia.
A lot of them (those statistics) don't mean that much though.

And the people here are not "Russophobic", I can tell this because Russia has come up many times in many topics over the history of this website and a lot of the time it is not negative, per se.
Good things said, along with Realist comments and of course, negative things.

If I were to say that in general Russian military technology is lacking (for some branches of the military), that's a realist comment.  Because there is not necessarily something wrong with that, and in the Russian military philosophy, that is the way they like (or liked) things and it works.  It's not worse, just different.

So even in this thread, not all of what you think is negative, or "Russophobic" really is.
 
Anyway, yes.  It would seem like the Russian Government thinks along the same lines as Henry Ford with the Model T.
Except instead of "You can have any colour you want, as long as it is black."
It is "You can say anything you want, as long as it is OK with me."
Good to see they've come along from the days of the USSR.  It's too bad, they have a lot of potential.

But do we even know what the man in this situation was saying?
I'm not saying that killing him (if they did) was justified, just that maybe he wasn't innocent in his messages.
 
And for those that believe we are all russophobes, as well as those that would see all Russians as one.....

http://www.realclearworld.com/articles/2008/09/kremlin_split_by_georgia_polic.html

September 03, 2008
Kremlin Split by Georgia Policy
By Andrei Piontkovsky

MOSCOW — Dmitry Medvedev inherited the post of president of the Russian Federation from Vladimir Putin, and while Putin moved down the pecking order to become prime minister, speculation has abounded from the start of Medvedev's presidency about an eventual split between Russia's two highest leaders. The first days of the conflict in Georgia crushed this hypothesis.

Indeed, Putin and Medvedev have worked in perfect tandem with respect to Georgia, cooperating and skillfully performing their different roles, with Putin cast in the lead role of the menacing god of a Russian reckoning, and Medvedev in the supporting role of a possible humanitarian peacemaker.

But the Georgia crisis revealed a new strategic force in the Kremlin that opposes both Putin and Medvedev. We still cannot name its players, but we are aware of its interests and impact on events in the same way that astronomers discern a new but invisible planet by recording its impact on known and visible objects in space.

One indication that something new is affecting Russian policy is provided by those loyal Kremlin pundits who are known for their gift of unmistakably guessing their masters' changing moods. One after another, they have appeared on television and radio to denounce "provokers," whom they dare not name, for "planning the incursion of Russian troops all the way to Tbilisi and the establishment there of a pro-Russian government."

Another indirect indication of an ongoing struggle is the uncertain behavior of the Russian military in Georgia, which apparently is the result of contradictory orders from the Kremlin. While the Russian Army seems not to have engaged in any active measures since reaching its current positions, it pointedly remains within a half-hour of Tbilisi.

The line in the sand that U.S. President George W. Bush drew on the night of Aug. 11, warning against Russian air strikes on Tbilisi's airport and shortly thereafter sending Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to visit Tbilisi, provoked a split in the Kremlin. The split divides those who are and are not concerned about the fate of Russian elites' vast personal holdings in the West........


Ah, yes indeed.  The Tyranny of the Market Place.  Economic Hegemony.  Or as Lord Invader and the Andrews Sisters would have it:workin' for the yankee dollar  ;D

Rather than tranquillizing tigers the wee fella might be better advised watching his back.
 
An interesting development.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4682003.ece

A US navy flagship has steamed into a Georgian port where Russian troops are still stationed, stoking tensions once again in the tinderbox Caucasus region.

A previous trip by American warships was cancelled at the last minute a week ago amid fears that an armed stand off could erupt in the Black Sea port of Poti.

The arrival of the USS Mount Whitney came as Moscow accused Dick Cheney, the hawkish US vice-president, of stoking tensions during a visit to Tbilisi yesterday, in which he vowed to bring Georgia into the Nato alliance. Russia sees any such move as a blatant Western encroachment on its traditional sphere of influence.

Russia’s leadership has already questioned whether previous US warships that docked at the port of Batumi, to the south, were delivering weapons to rearm the smashed Georgian military, something Washington has denied.

While Russia again questioned the deployment of what it described as "the number one ship of its type in the US navy” on the Black Sea, it said it planned no military action in response. The Russian Army has kept a small number of soldiers in Poti, where local Georgian officials accuse them of looting port authority buildings.

“Naval ships of that class can hardly deliver a large amount of aid,” said Andrei Nesterenko, a Russian foreign ministry spokesman. “Such ships of course have a hold for keeping provisions for the crew and items needed for sailing. How many dozens of tonnes of aid can a ship of that type deliver?"

He said the presence of US warships could contravene international conventions governing shipping on the Black Sea, and - in particular - restricting the entry of naval ships from countries that do not share a Black Sea coastline.

Militarily, the small Russian garrison in Poti would pose almost no threat to a vessel like the Mount Whitney, but the proximity of two hostile forces in such a fraught setting set the political temperature rising again in the Caucasus, a month after Russia’s five day war with Georgia.

The American warship is too large to actually enter the port, where Russia sunk several Georgian navy vessels in its offensive last month. Instead, it is expected anchor offshore and unload its cargo of blankets, hygiene kits, baby food and infant care supplies on to smaller boats.

"I can confirm it has arrived in Poti. Anchoring procedures are still ongoing but it has arrived," said a US naval official.

Moscow, which followed up its crushing military defeat of Georgia by unilaterally recognising the independence of two of its breakaway regions, South Ossetia and Abkhazia, was fuming that Mr Cheney still insisted on Georgia’s entrance into the Atlantic alliance – something several key NATO members are wary of.

“The new promises to Tbilisi relating to the speedy membership of NATO simply strengthen the Saakashvili regime’s dangerous feeling of impunity and encourages its dangerous ambitions,” said Mr Nesterenko.

Washington has also pledged one billion dollars in aid to help Georgia rebuild after Russia pounded many of its military bases to dust and targeted important infrastructure.

The brief conflict has left thousands of Georgians homeless, including many driven from South Ossetia and the surrounding Russian buffer zone inside Georgia itself.

Georgian officials have accused the Russian-backed Ossetian militias of “ethnically cleansing” remote villages, while Moscow has charged Tbilisi with “genocide” for its heavy handed attack on the breakaway region last month.

 
Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Globe and Mail is a comment with which I agree:

My emphasis added
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080904.wcorussia05/BNStory/specialComment/home
Standing up to Russia

TIMOTHY GARTON ASH

From Friday's Globe and Mail
September 5, 2008 at 12:27 AM EDT

As you read this, another remote corner of Europe has been "ethnically cleansed." That means young men murdered, old women driven out of their homes, villages plundered and torched. As in Bosnia, so now in South Ossetia, the butcher's work has largely been done by irregular militias. "We did carry out cleansing operations, yes," "Captain Elrus" told The Guardian. These violent crimes have been committed under the noses of Russian troops, now unilaterally rebranded "peacekeepers" by the simple expedient of giving them blue helmets. This ethnic cleansing has extended to the buffer zone around South Ossetia that Russia has unilaterally established, exploiting an alleged loophole in the ceasefire agreement brokered by French President Nicolas Sarkozy on behalf of the European Union.

These facts, established on the ground by brave reporters, are the true human measure of Europe's failure to keep its cardinal promise of peace even in its own backyard. They are also the measure of Russia's deliberate challenge to the late 20th-century way of doing politics and international relations that the EU represents.

Two things must be said at once. First, great as were the provocations on the ground, Georgia's leaders behaved with reprehensible folly in escalating the conflict in South Ossetia, allowing their forces to kill civilians and failing to anticipate the Russian hammer-blow reaction. "We did not prepare for this kind of eventuality," confessed Georgia's deputy defence minister. What irresponsible idiots.

Second, the dying Bush administration behaved with characteristic incompetence in allowing Georgia to nurse even the shadow of a hope that the U.S. cavalry might ride to the aid of this would-be Israel of the Caucasus. Worldwide ridicule of Washington's indignant response also demonstrated just how much credibility the U.S. has lost over Iraq. (Don't invade a sovereign country. That's what we do.)

So, yes, there was also fault in Tbilisi and Washington. But finding fault with the U.S. (a sport at which Europeans excel) and Georgia (a country of which most Europeans know nothing) reduces not one jot or tittle the challenge that Russia now poses to the way Western Europe has tried to conduct human affairs since 1945 - and the creed most of Europe has lived by since 1989.

"Territorial integrity" is not the heart of the matter here. The essence of the new European way of doing things is something more like procedural integrity. The frontiers of existing states must be respected, but, in exceptional cases, territories within states may negotiate special autonomies or even vote to become independent, such as Kosovo or perhaps Scotland one day. But always providing this is done by peaceful means, with the sanction of national and international law. The how matters more than thewhat.

That's Europe's fundamental claim, which Vladimir Putin's Russia is challenging head-on. Its message is that the unilateral use of force to advance national interests is part of what great powers do; that the postmodern, law-based order of the EU is a 20th-century anachronism; that, in the words of Thucydides's Melian dialogue, "the strong do what they can, and the weak submit."

So what is Europe's answer? The outcome of Monday's EU emergency summit in Brussels was less bad than it might have been. A minimal unity was preserved. But the measures agreed were still weak. "Thank God common sense triumphed," said Mr. Putin. And the unity itself is weak. Deep differences in approach remain, reflecting differing levels of energy dependency on, and diverse historical experiences with, Russia. Moscow will do everything in its power to exploit these differences.

I found the tone of mild self-congratulation at the post-summit press conference with Mr. Sarkozy and European Commission president Jose Manuel Barroso inappropriate. You should not allow that tone to creep in when, even as you speak, women and children are being made destitute, if not worse, as a result partly of Europe's failure. A defeat is not a victory. And this summit can only be accounted a success if it begins a fundamental rethinking of Europe's whole policy toward Russia.

What we need is a twin-track approach, combining elements of muscular deterrence and skillful engagement - of Cold War and detente, if you will. It must remain clear the door is still open to the kind of strategic partnership the West dreamed of in the 1990s, with Russia as a new pillar of liberal international order. But our working assumption must be that it will remain Mr. Putin's Russia: a ruthless great power, determined to roll back the West's influence and establish its own 19th-century-style sphere of influence in the post-Soviet space. And one prepared to use violence, intimidation and extortion to realize its national interests, which it defines as extending to the "protection" of millions of Russians in other sovereign states around its borders.

Yalta, c'est fini, Mr. Sarkozy declared in Brussels, alluding to the alleged division of Europe into two spheres of influence at the 1945 Yalta conference. But a new kind of "Yalta" may be starting - at that very same town of Yalta in the Crimea, and many like it, where Mother Russia yearns to look after her own. Europe must do what it can for Georgia, including a visible presence on the ground. But even more important is to do what it can for Ukraine, a pivotal state that (unlike Georgia) still more or less controls all the territory within its borders.

British Foreign Secretary David Miliband was absolutely right to go there in response to the Georgian crisis. The EU should now give Ukraine a clear perspective of membership. It should put monitors, officials, lawyers, police advisers and development workers on the ground, especially in regions such as the Crimea.

Our response should be realistic, not just in how we assess Russia but also in judging our own strengths and weaknesses. Russia does tanks. Europe is not good at doing stuff with tanks. But Europeans do a thousand other things, each of them smaller, softer and slower than a tank — which together, given time and the perspective of eventual membership, can be a force more powerful. This model is now on trial.

Timothy Garton Ash is professor of European studies at St. Antony's College, Oxford.


Europe MUST grow some, even just a little, backbone, get off its knees and confront Russia on Russia’s terms. TGA may be right that “Europe is not good at doing stuff with tanks” but it was not ever thus and some Europeans need to remember that, unless they are happy with the message in Thucydides's Melian dialogue. America may have to stiffen Europe’s resolve, again. This matter – ’containing Russia’ - is too important to ignore in the hope that Europe will stumble and bumble into an acceptable solution.


 
"Contain the Russians".  Didn't Hitler try, and fail, to do just that? [/irony]

 
Mortarman Rockpainter said:
"Contain the Russians".  Didn't Hitler try, and fail, to do just that? [/irony]

Not so much MR.  The silly wee fella tried to do a Thunder Run on Moscow - a lightning bolt if you will, or even a rapier thrust.  But you have to extraordinarily active to hold anything with a rapier.  It is like digging a ditch with a one prong fork rather than a spade - possible but tiring.

The essence of containment is inactivity.  The side that does least lasts longest.  Activity only expends scarce resources.

If you can sit quietly, and be well provisioned, while your opponent is blockaded and forced to act then you win.

Hitler opted to pick a fight against a better provisioned and more numerous foe by betting on a single killing stroke against a single target (Uncle Joe).

I suppose as one megalomaniac to another that made sense to both of them.  Neither could likely conceive of their countries or strategies surviving without them.
 
CDN Aviator said:
Theres nothing that says Turkey would know anything about it until it was over.

While Turkey is a major US ally, there is a significant percentage of the population that is opposed to US policies in the region. A launch of a Tomahawk missile over the country without Turkey's permission would result in widespread protest that could include attacks against US citizens/installations/businesses and would further alienate a sizable portion of the population. The US is not going to jeopardize a somewhat tense relationship with the Turkish government by carrying what would be a violation of Turkish airspace and sovereignty.

Plus, the USN doesn't need to launch Tomahawk missiles from a sub, the AEGIS class destroyer USS McFaul likely has Tomahawks missiles already onboard. A component of the AEGIS Mk 7 weapons system is the Mk 41 vertical launch system which is capable of launching the Tomahawk missile.

BTW, in regards to the earlier post about the Russian ex-admiral boasting that the Russian navy could blow the US naval presence in the Black sea out of the water, I would say - not so fast.  The Mk 7 weapons system is a very capable system designed to defend against, and engage multiple targets (up to 100 or more) and threats. It can "defeat an extremely wide range of targets from wave top to directly overhead....against anti-ship cruise missiles and manned aircraft flying in all speed ranges from subsonic to supersonic....effective in all environmental conditions having both all-weather capability and ....in chaff and jamming environments. AEGIS equipped ships are capable of engaging and defeating enemy aircraft, missiles, submarines and surface ships." 

The Russian Black Sea Fleet is shell of its former greatness and may not have the numbers to effectively knock-out the USS McFaul. They only have one major surface combatant, the Moskva (ex-Slava cruiser) as its flagship, some smaller destroyers/frigates/missile patrol boats and one Kilo submarine. I would think that the McFaul could handle itself quit well. However, the one advantage the Russians have is that they could draw on ground-based air units to overwhelm the US ships, however, I doubt Putin (or George Bush) is ready to start WWIII just yet.
 
Mortarman Rockpainter said:
"Contain the Russians".  Didn't Hitler try, and fail, to do just that? [/irony]

Hitler wasn't trying to "contain" the Russians. He was trying to Destroy them!. Big difference.
 
Back
Top