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Georgia and the Russian invasions/annexations/Lebensraum (2008 & 2015)

CougarDaddy said:
Mr. Kirkhill,


And yes, Georgia has a navy:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/georgia/navy-equipment.htm

I believe the term is "had"  ;)

In answer to your question Kirkhill, perhaps the "white fleet"?

google= http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE6DC143CF930A25751C0A96E948260
 
Poti pic's. Another casualty of the conflict in Georgia is the cancellation of two exercises with Russia and Canada on Aug. 15 and Aug. 20.

2mfi54h.jpg]


1zz5abm.jpg
 
tomahawk6: What kind of missle boat is that?  That looks like a styx launcher on the back end, and a 76mm turret on the front.
 
Well if Wikipedia is to be trusted, It's named Tbilissi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_navy#cite_note-5
(Bottom of the page)

The Tbilisi (თბილისი) is a Soviet 206MR project boat, obtained in 1999 from Ukraine. It is equipped with two Termite missile launchers, a 76 mm AK-176 dual purpose gun and a six-barreled 30 mm AK-630M Gatling gun. The ship was discovered on fire in the Georgian naval base of Poti on August 13, 2008
 
time expired said:
The Guardian,Ha Ha, I wondered when you would get round to
quoting that Commie rag.Years of calling for the proletariat to rise
up and form a British soviet,apologising for the brutal Soviet policies.
What are you going to produce next as proof positive of Russian
innocence, quotes from Izvestia or Pravda?.Pathetic.

Times Online, Ha Ha,  wondered when you would get round to
quoting that NeoConservative rag.Years of calling for the third reich to rise
up and form a American workers,apologising for the brutal NAZI policies.
What are you going to produce next as proof positive of American
innocence, quotes from CNN or FOX?.Pathetic.


Point made?
 
The vessel was bought from the Ukraine and is a 206MR project boat armed with a 76mm gun,2 Termite SSM's and a 30 mm AK-630M CIWS.

Tsyurupynsk ('Matka'/Vikhr') class missile boats
(Project 206MR)

Displacement: 257 tons full load
Dimensions: 38.6 x 7.6 x 2.1 meters/126.6 x 25 x 6.9 feet
Extreme Dimensions: 38.6 x 12.5 x 3.26 meters/126.6 x 41 x 10.7 feet over foils
Propulsion: 3 diesels, 3 shafts, 14,400 bhp, 42 knots
Crew: 25-28
Fire Control: Harpun/Plank Shave SSM control
EW: 2 PK-16 decoy
Armament: 2 SS-N-2C/P-15M Termit SSM, 1 76.2mm/59 cal DP, 1 30 mm AA, SA-14/SA-16 SAM position
Concept/Program: Soviet semi-hydrfoil patrol craft transferred 1996; built 1978-83.

Builders: Sudostroitel'noye Odyedineniye Almaz, Kolpino.

 
oligarch said:
Times Online, Ha Ha,  wondered when you would get round to
quoting that NeoConservative rag.Years of calling for the third reich to rise
up and form a American workers,apologising for the brutal NAZI policies.
What are you going to produce next as proof positive of American
innocence, quotes from CNN or FOX?.Pathetic.


Point made?

Lady

Your tactics suck.  Most here are relatively neutral in this affair and trying to come to some reasonable truths as to what is happening in Georgia.  You are acting like the loyal wife and protecting her Mafioso husband.  Try not to be so one sided; it may help.  Right now you are coming off as a raging fanatic. 

This little exhibit of tit for tat is not helping the discussion.
 
tomahawk6 said:
Poti pic's. Another casualty of the conflict in Georgia is the cancellation of two exercises with Russia and Canada on Aug. 15 and Aug. 20.

2mfi54h.jpg]


1zz5abm.jpg

As a Graphic Designer with a great deal of experience in Photoshop, these images appear fabricated. Tell-tale signs include shadows cast in all angles and a patchedwork of image elements.

This is difficult for me to point out as I'm in the "thuggish" Russians camp. Not that I need to remind but I would caution all not to believe everything you see as absolute with respect to static images.
 
Colin P said:
There is a video on livelink showing a patrol boat burning I suspect the same one.

I have seen clips of other ships burning and scuttled.  If it is "PhotoShopped", it is a very good one.  I don't see any problems with the shadows cast by a listing ship.
 
I probably spoke too soon then. After taking a much closer look, I think I'm seeing propaganda where there isn't any in this case.  :-[
 
A little bit about ethnic cleansing:
August 15, 2008
Signs of Ethnic Attacks in Georgia Conflict
By SABRINA TAVERNISE and MATT SIEGEL
TBILISI, Georgia — As the conflict between Russia and Georgia enters its second week, there is growing evidence of looting and “ethnic cleansing” in a number of villages throughout the area of conflict.

The attacks — some witnessed by reporters or documented by a human rights group — include stealing, the burning of villages and possibly even killings. Some are ethnically motivated, while at least some of the looting appears to be the work of profiteers in areas from which the authorities have fled.

The identities of the attackers vary, but a pattern of violence by ethnic Ossetians against ethnic Georgians is emerging and has been confirmed by some Russian authorities. “Now Ossetians are running around and killing poor Georgians in their enclaves,” said Maj. Gen. Vyacheslav Nikolaevich Borisov, the commander in charge of the city of Gori, occupied by the Russians.

A lieutenant from an armored transport division that was previously in Chechnya said: “We have to be honest. The Ossetians are marauding.”

The hostilities between Russia and Georgia started last week when the Georgian military marched into the disputed territory of South Ossetia, and the Russians responded by sending troops into the pro-Russia, separatist enclave and then into Georgia proper.

Dozens of houses were on fire on Tuesday in the northern suburbs of Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia. Reporters saw armed men moving on the streets, carting away electronics and other household items. It was not clear who the men were. They did not appear to be part of the Russian forces, but the Russians were not stopping them.

“We’re not a police force, we’re a military force,” said a Russian lieutenant colonel in response to a reporter’s question. “It’s not our job to do police work.”

Still, there was some evidence that the Russian military might be making efforts in some places to stop the rampaging. A column of 12 men with their hands on their heads, several wearing uniforms, were marched into the Russian military base in Gori on Thursday afternoon. The identities of the men were unclear.

Human Rights Watch issued a report on Thursday that documented attacks by ethnic Ossetians in and around Tskhinvali on Wednesday. Researchers saw a number of houses on fire in the town of Java. They quoted a South Ossetian intelligence officer as saying that his fighters had burned the houses to “make sure” that the Georgians could not come back.

The report’s findings also seemed to indicate that early Russian accounts of casualties, which in the first days of fighting reached 2,000, were far too high. In Tskhinvali , where the heaviest fighting took place, the local hospital received 44 corpses and 273 wounded people from Aug. 6, after clashes between separatists and Georgians, to Aug. 12, the report said, citing a doctor.

The report quoted the doctor as saying that the majority of the wounded were affiliated with the military, although it was not clear if he meant the Russian or Georgian armies or Ossetian fighters. As of Aug. 13, none of the wounded remained in the hospital, the report said. Many were transferred to mobile hospitals in the Russian Emergencies Ministry.

An elderly woman from the village of Kurta who gave only her first name, Elene, said she had been forced to walk three days to safety after Russian-speaking men broke into her house. An Ossetian man was with them, she said. “They entered the houses, took whatever they liked, and burned everything.” They threatened to shoot her after taking her valuables, but her neighbor, a Russian woman, intervened on her behalf.

“She said, ‘Please don’t do this,’ ” said the woman. The men shot at the ground several times and then left. She fled.

Five villages in her area were looted and people driven out, she said. In one of them, Oreti, she said she saw the bodies of two women decomposing. The walk was terrifying. She spent one night in an empty house.

She was reminded of the violence that took the life of her husband in the early 1990s, when Ossetians and Georgians fought an all-out war. “I wish I’d died soon after my husband,” she said. “There are so many deaths.”

A Georgian official said some of the worst “ethnic cleansing” was in the towns of Eredvi, Ditsi, Tirdznisi and Kuraleti. A man from the village of Karetezhvyari said he returned to check his house on Thursday, only to discover several houses on fire.

The man, who gave only his first name, Nukri, was livid about the lootings and the Russian advance. “They were a big empire, and they fell,” he said, “but they can’t stop acting like one.”

Sabrina Tavernise reported from Gori and Tbilisi, Georgia, and Matt Siegel from Tskhinvali, Georgia. Bryon Denton contributed reporting from Gori.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/15/world/europe/15ethnic.html?th=&emc=th&pagewanted=print
 
Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s National Post, is an article with which I agree (save for the brief assessment of Russia’s military capabilities – about which I have insufficient information):

http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/story.html?id=726006
The new cold war, a brief history

Matt Gurney, National Post

Published: Friday, August 15, 2008

The Russian advance deep into Georgia, with tanks rolling into the city of Gori yesterday in flagrant violation of the EU sponsored ceasefire, seems to have caught many off-guard. Perhaps the most surprised of all is Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili, whose attempt to crush South Ossetian separatists under the noses of Russian troops provoked the response that has seen his country heavily bombed and partially occupied. While Western diplomats bluster and offer stern but vague warnings to Moscow, the Russians continue their assault.

The invasion of Georgia marks only the latest in a series of escalating Russian provocations. In the past, when I would slip up and call them "Soviets," I'd always correct myself. These days, I no longer see the point. Our cunning Cold War enemies, repackaged now as Russian nationalists, are back. The ideology has changed, but the methodology is all too familiar.

While it has taken years for Russia's depleted military strength to match the ambitions of its leadership, the seeds of the current conflict can be seen clearly as far back as four years ago. Viktor Yushchenko, the pro-Western, pro-NATO Ukrainian presidential candidate, almost lost his life to a clumsy poisoning attempt that left him physically scarred but politically triumphant. Having failed to stop the popular "Orange Revolution" from sweeping Yushchenko into office, the Russians then sought to discredit him politically when, in a move grimly reminiscent of the Berlin blockade, they disrupted the natural gas supplies that provided one-third of the Ukraine's power and upon which its economy depended. The fact that this action also disrupted energy supplies in Western Europe seemed to be of little concern to Russia's then-president and now Prime Minister, Vladimir Putin.

Two years after the attempt on Yushchenko's life, Alexander Litvinenko, an outspoken critic of Putin and defector to the United Kingdom, was murdered on British soil, falling victim to a radioactive poison the same day he made allegations linking Putin to the murder of a Russian journalist, one among many such silencings. While neither of the poisonings can be explicitly linked back to Russia, given that both Putin and his inner circle are former KGB men, it can be said that in these cases the smoke almost certainly means there's fire.

In 2007, Putin ratcheted up the Cold War nostalgia a notch further when he announced that Russia would resume regular patrol flights by long-range bombers, capable of carrying nuclear weapons. While it cannot be proven one way or the other whether or not these planes are indeed carrying live nukes, they have certainly made a nuisance of themselves.

The bombers, mainly the venerable Tu-95 Bear, have flown provocatively close to North America's airspace, on more than one occasion prompting the North American Air Defence Command to scramble Canadian and American fighter jets to intercept the Russian planes and ensure they stayed outside of our territory. Russian bombers have also flown past the American military base on Guam, and in a brazen move in February of this year, flown over the USS Nimitz battle group, with one bomber passing within 2,000 feet of the carrier herself.

The Europeans have received similar visits. In an instance particularly revealing of Putin's desire to assert his strength, the British were forced to scramble Tornado fighter jets on three separate occasions in July, 2007, a low point in British-Russian relations brought about by Russia's refusal to extradite a suspect in Litvinenko's murder. Three months later, a pair of Bear bombers flew over the North Sea, alarmingly close to a meeting of NATO defence ministers in the Netherlands, once again compelling fighters to be sent aloft to intercept them.

Nor have the Russians hesitated to use maskirovka, or deception, to further intimidate. In April, 2006, a Russian air force general bragged to reporters that an advanced Tu-160 Blackjack bomber, modified to be stealthier than earlier models, had successfully penetrated NORAD's defences and overflown North American territory without being detected. For obvious reasons, this claim cannot be verified; one cannot prove or disprove the presence of an invisible aircraft.

Much more recently, Russian media reported only last month that the air force was considering basing nuclear-capable bombers in Cuba, a move that, though denied by Moscow, brought an immediate response from the U. S. military. General Norman Schwartz, on the eve of his promotion to Air Force chief of staff, told Congress that any such move, so reminiscent of the Cuban Missile Crisis, would be "crossing the line." How seriously either of these threats should be taken is unclear, but certainly, they were not meant to improve relations.

These overt provocations have been exacerbated by Russia's increasingly apparent diplomatic opposition to Western interests. Whether manifested by its refusal to back international action against the Sudanese government's ethnic cleansing in Darfur, or the proposed sale of fully modern anti-aircraft batteries to the Iranians over the strident objections of Israel, Russia has set itself against the West across a wide spectrum of issues.

Today, with Georgia getting the same kind of treatment the Soviet Union meted out to Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Afghanistan and the Baltic states, it might be time for the West to accept the fact that these are not unrelated incidents. The Russian bear, after almost 20 years of hibernation, has awoken. The sooner we accept that, the sooner we can return to the same kind of hard-nosed, pragmatic diplomacy that allowed us to avoid disaster without sacrificing our vital interests during the first Cold War.

mgurney.responses@gmail.com

 
And here is another article, also reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s National Post, that supports my proposed sanctions:

http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/story.html?id=726008
Great bear rising

Aurel Braun, National Post

Published: Friday, August 15, 2008

Using massive military force to invade and utterly humiliate another country, and justifying the attack with outlandish claims of victimization, the Kremlin's behaviour in Georgia harks back to Soviet days. While today's Russia is no U.S.S.R. (it lacks both the ideology and the vast military might of its superpower predecessor), its actions in the Caucuses have profoundly dangerous implications for the region, NATO and international peace.

In South Ossetia, Moscow prodded and provoked the excitable Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili into retaliating for Ossetian attacks across the breakaway region's temporary demarcation lines. When Saakashvili decided last week to retake the region, which the international community recognizes as an integral part of Georgia, the Russians were well prepared, and swiftly crushed the vastly smaller and weaker Georgian army.

The six-point plan for a ceasefire and disengagement, to which the Russian and Georgian Presidents agreed on Tuesday, is sufficiently ambiguous to leave Russia with ample opportunity for "interpretation" and intimidation. Large-scale Russian military actions across Georgia since the ceasefire starkly confirm this.

It is vital to put Russia's action in a larger context in order to better understand the Kremlin's goals in the recent conflict, its long-term expectations and the potential dangers to international peace.

It seems that Russia has been primarily motivated by five major factors:

KOSOVO

The Georgian conflict has clearly demonstrated that Prime Minister Vladimir Putin is in charge, and that President Dmitry Medvedev is little more than "a flower in his lapel." For months, Putin has warned that the Kremlin would retaliate for Western nations' recognition of Kosovo's independence. For Moscow, recognizing the independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia (another disputed region of Georgia) is "payback." In effectively annexing these parts of Georgia, however, Moscow is going further, establishing a dangerous precedent for Russian regional expansionism.

NATO

Moscow's Georgian foray sent a powerful message to neighbouring NATO aspirants -- especially Ukraine -- that any attempt to join the alliance will bring dire punishment. The West can ill afford to have Russia establish this type of "deterrent" to alliance enlargement.

MISSILE SHIELD

The Russian invasion sent a forceful signal to Poland and the Czech Republic that they must not agree to deploy missile defences against a future Iranian threat. The fact that the leaders of Poland, Ukraine, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia rushed to Tbilisi to express solidarity with Georgia is but one indication of how extraordinarily concerned they are regarding the possibility that Russia could exercise a veto over the defence policies of NATO states.

NATURAL GAS PIPELINES

In its brutal exercise of military power throughout Georgia, including bombing the country's primary port and blowing up Georgian ships, Moscow undermined Western hopes of building natural gas pipelines in Georgia that would skirt Russian territory -- thereby bringing secure energy supplies from the Caspian area. Western investors are unlikely to risk billions of dollars to build such pipelines on territory where Russia can so quickly -- and in such an unchallenged fashion -- commit this level of violence. Moscow is telling Western Europeans, in particular, that they will continue to depend on Russian pipelines, which Moscow will not hesitate to turn into political currency.

WESTERN QUIESCENCE

The tepid reaction from Western European countries (particularly Germany) to Russia's massive use of force confirms Putin's expectations. It reinforces his apparent belief that Russia can successfully use "petromail" to silence Western opposition to Russian belligerence. It also strengthens his belief that manoeuvres, manipulation and intimidation add up to a shortcut to achieving global power, even if Russia (but for energy) does not have a modern, competitive world-class economy.

There are enormous risks that Russia, an ersatz great power, will draw the wrong lessons from its "success" in this conflict -- and that the reinforcement of Putinite myths and ambitions will
lead Moscow to dangerously "overreach" in its foreign relations in general and specifically in regard to the Baltics and Ukraine. The West must therefore disabuse Moscow of its illusions.

This certainly does not require a major military response, which at any rate would be unrealistic. While some suggest that accommodation and appeasement are our only options, Moscow is vulnerable and we have several viable courses of action:

- Re-examine Russia's membership in the G8;

- Question Moscow's aspirations for World Trade Organization membership;

- Reassess the advisability of continuing with the NATO-Russia Council, which gives Moscow an important participatory role in the alliance;

- Insist on the deployment of a true international force in the breakaway regions of Georgia, while re-emphasizing the non-negotiability of Georgia's territorial integrity, a stance that international law strongly supports.

These and other options are worth exploring. Canada, moreover, has the international credibility and the opportunity to play a major role in addressing this crisis, and helping to prevent an even wider and more deadly confrontation in the future.

Aurel Braun is a professor of political science and international relations at the University of Toronto. His latest book is NATO-Russia Relations in the Twenty-First Century (Routledge, 2008).

I agree with Braun that the West’s reaction has been tepid – flaccid also seems like a good descriptor.

Obviously I agree with his prescriptions but I would reword them ever so slightly. The US led West should:

Re-examine Revoke Russia's membership in the G8;

Question Scupper Moscow's aspirations for World Trade Organization membership;

Reassess the advisability of continuing with Cancel the NATO-Russia Council, which gives Moscow an important participatory role in the alliance; and

Insist on Lead the deployment of a true international force in the breakaway regions of Georgia, while re-emphasizing the non-negotiability of Georgia's territorial integrity, a stance that international law strongly supports.

 
The resurgence of Russian power and the growth of Chinese power are alarming developments for the West (see A Grand Strategy for a divided America), particularly since these are autocratic powers which do not have a history of or respect for the triad of ideas that underpin our civilization: Freedom of expression, Property rights and Rule of Law.

They do have a great deal of respect for power: political, economic and military.

While in the long run there may be a time when China and Russia confront each other over the resources of Siberia, for now they are in an alliance of conveinience against America and the West. They happily provide nuclear fuel to our enemies, support anti western regimes and are now flexing their economic muscles (the cutting of natural gas supplies to the Ukraine and the implicit threat to Western Europe is a pretty blatent example). This is similar to the unholy marriage of conveinience between the Iranians, militant Wahhabi's and secular Ba'athists in the Middle East. Only the Americans can prevent these groups from becoming regional Hegemons, so the Americans have to be defeated first before they can get down to the serious business of killing each other....

The US "Grand Strategy" of building partnerships throughout Asia may take a beating over this incident, but since the US is in the Caucus, the 'Stans and Mongolia, they may still be holding high cards in the game. As an Oceanic Power, the US and the West as a whole does not "need" these areas, but having the ability to shape and broadly influence the region will pay off in the longer term (say +35 years from now after the Russian demographic crash), so maybe we are not taking a broad enough view of things here.
 
If the US leaves Georgia hanging in the breeze, with Georgia being, IIRC, the 3rd largest deployment in Iraq, how does it affect US credibility with other erstwhile allies? 

And how do the regulars feel about a possible treaty/alliance between Turkey, Ukraine and Georgia, as well as some of the other former Warsaw Pact states?
 
Good news:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/newsroom/view_news_e.asp?id=2729

Media Advisory

Statement by the Minister of National Defence on the cancellation of a planned NORAD military exercise with Russia


NR–08.054 - August 14, 2008

OTTAWA - The Honourable Peter Gordon MacKay, Minister of National Defence and Minister of the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, issued the following statement today:

“In light of the current situation in Georgia, and after consultation with our American allies, we agreed that it would be inappropriate to go ahead with Exercise VIGILANT EAGLE, a planned combined NORAD-Russia military exercise that was scheduled to begin August 20, 2008.

We will assess participation in future such exercises as the situation evolves.

The Government of Canada’s position on hostilities in Georgia was clearly stated by the Prime Minister and the Minister of Foreign Affairs. I join with them in calling for Russia to fully respect the terms of the cease-fire and respect Georgia’s sovereignty and territorial integrity.

We sincerely hope for an end to these hostilities, and for the safety of the civilian populations affected by this crisis."

-30-​
 
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